I’ve recently had both shoulders surgically repaired and your symptoms prior to this injury closely resemble mine. If your shoulders bother you when your sleeping (side sleepers) that can be an indicator of some damage. Your history (pitching) is also what I believe was a big factor in my problems as well.
[quote]olympianiac wrote:
wtf? does no one realize that “dc rehab” is complete bs? this is honestly sad, plus he said he just wont take ibuprofen or anything else? obviously this shoulder injury int that bad. [/quote]
I don’t understand people like you. Why the hell are you wasting your time posting in a thread, contributing absolutely nothing and getting nothing in return. I never said my shoulder was “that bad” and I also never said I “just won’t take ibuprofen or anything else”
[quote]J L Erwin wrote:
I’ve recently had both shoulders surgically repaired and your symptoms prior to this injury closely resemble mine. If your shoulders bother you when your sleeping (side sleepers) that can be an indicator of some damage. Your history (pitching) is also what I believe was a big factor in my problems as well.
[/quote]
Hm, my uncle played baseball for many years (still does actually) and he recently needed shoulder surgery. I haven’t played baseball in awhile though, but it used to hurt sleeping on my side. Not so much anymore until recently with this issue. How bad was your pain before the injury and what exactly happened causing the injury that needed surgery?
[quote]plateau wrote:
Had a similar pain at the tail end of last year, tried working round for it a month.
Didn’t get much better, and I was getting increasingly frustrated in the gym. Found the best local physio took about 4 weeks and I was 99% happy with the shoulder again.
She said the RC was causing impingement, had me doing external rotations and lower scap work at the end of every session focusing on speed to work through the impingement and try and up the weight which doubled in the 4 weeks. Also she had me pull out YTLWs from my mobility work at the start of my workout.
Stretchin and ice after every workout and massage. Obviously I’m not a student so could afford this.
Good luck.
[/quote]
I’ve just started doing the YTWL’s before pushing workouts (should probably do it for all of them though) and about to start icing. Man I’m really hoping it’s not the same issue you mentioned, although it’s really not seeming to be improving. Is what you mentioned she had you do “after every session” in addition to something she spent time doing that you/I couldn’t do alone?
[quote]derf wrote:
I’ve worked through a case of severe rotator cuff tendonitis the last 4 months. An article I found in January has helped (much of which I had already started). Google Marc McDougal “Corrective Methods for Common Postural Deviations, The Shoulder”.
Additionally, sets of rotator cuff work (except internals - see article) for 2 sets of 35-50 reps. Gets blood flow into area to help heal.
I’ve progressed from No Pressing to normal volume with only occasional protest from shoulders. I hope this helps.[/quote]
I don’t think I have any type of severe RC tendonitis but I’ll check out the article, thanks.
I’ve recently had both shoulders surgically repaired and your symptoms prior to this injury closely resemble mine. If your shoulders bother you when your sleeping (side sleepers) that can be an indicator of some damage. Your history (pitching) is also what I believe was a big factor in my problems as well.
The fact of the matter is there is no way of telling what is wrong without medical advice and most likely an MRI. If you have insurance, go get it looked into. It will not heal on it’s own if there is damage to the tendon. I fought this for most of my life until I had no choice (couldn’t sleep) but to get help. They fixed both shoulders and at 46 I benched a PR after about a year since the last surgery.
I have no pain and only the only lingering issue is a loss of mobility in one shoulder that is a non-issue other than I can’t back squat with a regular bar because I can’t get my arm back far enough to hold the bar. This isn’t a result of the operation, thay were both that way befor the repairs. I simply didn’t regain the ROM after one shoulder was repaired.
I have no pain now and can do anything else in the gym and am making the best progress of my life.
The surgeries are not pleasant and the rehab is long but crucial! I was a year getting back after the one operation. I know this is not what you want to hear but it’s not the end of the world either.
After a short while you should be able to do some lower body stuff to keep you sane. But like I said, they will not heal themselves if you have the problem I think you do. See a good orthopedic surgeon if you can. Good luck
I don’t know why my post came up twice but anyway; basically they ached when sleeping and if I did certain things (lifting or throwing) but not that big an issue otherwise. Didn’t lift for about 15 years though. I also didn’t have a specific injury that I recall, just years of “wear and tear” I guess.
Just did that flashlight test from the article, at first it seemed like my hands were facing each other but when completely relaxed I was only something like 4 feet away from the wall before the lights crossed.
[quote]J L Erwin wrote:
The fact of the matter is there is no way of telling what is wrong without medical advice and most likely an MRI. If you have insurance, go get it looked into. It will not heal on it’s own if there is damage to the tendon. I fought this for most of my life until I had no choice (couldn’t sleep) but to get help. They fixed both shoulders and at 46 I benched a PR after about a year since the last surgery.
I have no pain and only the only lingering issue is a loss of mobility in one shoulder that is a non-issue other than I can’t back squat with a regular bar because I can’t get my arm back far enough to hold the bar. This isn’t a result of the operation, thay were both that way befor the repairs. I simply didn’t regain the ROM after one shoulder was repaired.
I have no pain now and can do anything else in the gym and am making the best progress of my life.
The surgeries are not pleasant and the rehab is long but crucial! I was a year getting back after the one operation. I know this is not what you want to hear but it’s not the end of the world either.
After a short while you should be able to do some lower body stuff to keep you sane. But like I said, they will not heal themselves if you have the problem I think you do. See a good orthopedic surgeon if you can. Good luck[/quote]
So was it a progression of getting worse and worse until surgery was necessary? In the back of my mind I somewhat always assumed I would need shoulder surgery at one point given that I was having pain at such a young age, but I didn’t think it would be anytime soon.
You may not need surgery but my point is you won’t know until you get some professional assessment.
Yes, it seems to have been an accumulation of things like “throwing my arm out” at the beginning of every season but playing anyway (pitching every other game no less!). Kids are smart huh?
I know it’s a bummer to think about but as Martin Rooney said about life in general; “address it”. Negatives seem to only fester and get worse rather than be corrected by time alone. You have to find the facts befor you can alleviate the problems effectively. Hang in there.
pumped340, do you do alot of “bodybuilder style” shoulder pressing movements? What you have right now is an acute injury of some type since its directly linked to you reaching up too high on that press. But if you have a history of shoulder problems in that area (in the joint in the middle of your shoulder) its probably a preventable issue. The first think is to find out what is causing the pain and discontinuing that.
Any shoulder press which has your elbows flared at the bottom is an excellent exercise for just crushing your supraspinatus, which is where it sounds like your problem lies. Doing shoulder presses the correct aka Rippetoe way, is not as great for muscle mass in some respects, but is much better for your shoulder health.
Almost any “shoulder rehab” or even “prehab” for that matter that has some cool name such as YTWLI or Super Duper Shoulder rehab Circuit is complete bullshit. Now its not that all of these circuits are bad or ineffective, but like any other exercise, you have to actually feel the muscle your trying to work.
Just as some people like barbell bench over dumbell or machines or vice versa, you pick the exercises you FEEL the best, because these will get you the best results. Its usually a bit of trial and error. So, not knowing what you are doing that is causing this problem, I will go out on a limb and make a very guesses.
Stop doing shoulder presses with elbows flared, if bench presses are bothering you or dips, you may want to cut those out or reduce the weight for the time being.
Find a serratus strengthening exercise that you can feel working, this could be REGULAR pushups with a focus on the serratus, especially during the eccentric portion. An external rotation exercise that you can feel working in the infraspinatus, not wrapping around the side or front of your shoulder. And an internal rotation exercise.
Some people would say you need to do a lower trap exercise as well, such as wall slides, but I feel I get a good amount of lower trap keeping my scapula down and back while doing external rotations. All of these exercises should tighten up your shoulder and scapula quite a bit, then I would make my way back into bench presses, dips etc… but I dont know if I would ever add back bodybuilder shoulder presses, those are just complete shit.
[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
pumped340, do you do alot of “bodybuilder style” shoulder pressing movements? What you have right now is an acute injury of some type since its directly linked to you reaching up too high on that press. But if you have a history of shoulder problems in that area (in the joint in the middle of your shoulder) its probably a preventable issue. The first think is to find out what is causing the pain and discontinuing that.
Any shoulder press which has your elbows flared at the bottom is an excellent exercise for just crushing your supraspinatus, which is where it sounds like your problem lies. Doing shoulder presses the correct aka Rippetoe way, is not as great for muscle mass in some respects, but is much better for your shoulder health.
Almost any “shoulder rehab” or even “prehab” for that matter that has some cool name such as YTWLI or Super Duper Shoulder rehab Circuit is complete bullshit. Now its not that all of these circuits are bad or ineffective, but like any other exercise, you have to actually feel the muscle your trying to work.
Just as some people like barbell bench over dumbell or machines or vice versa, you pick the exercises you FEEL the best, because these will get you the best results. Its usually a bit of trial and error. So, not knowing what you are doing that is causing this problem, I will go out on a limb and make a very guesses.
Stop doing shoulder presses with elbows flared, if bench presses are bothering you or dips, you may want to cut those out or reduce the weight for the time being.
Find a serratus strengthening exercise that you can feel working, this could be REGULAR pushups with a focus on the serratus, especially during the eccentric portion. An external rotation exercise that you can feel working in the infraspinatus, not wrapping around the side or front of your shoulder. And an internal rotation exercise.
Some people would say you need to do a lower trap exercise as well, such as wall slides, but I feel I get a good amount of lower trap keeping my scapula down and back while doing external rotations. All of these exercises should tighten up your shoulder and scapula quite a bit, then I would make my way back into bench presses, dips etc… but I dont know if I would ever add back bodybuilder shoulder presses, those are just complete shit.[/quote]
I don’t know if I would say I do “bodybuilder” shoulder presses. I don’t purposely ever flare my elbows on any press really, I just do what feels most comfortable.
You mentioned serratus exercises, why exactly would that help and how would you focus on that during a push up? It could have been the light load but I tried a few push ups yesterday with no pain, and I did flyes on sunday where the only discomfort was if I brought the dumbbell directly over me, otherwise it was fine. I’m not sure but I feel like DB presses would be OK. I was specifically working on my bench so naturally I’d like to get back to doing that but if I can’t by saturday I guess I’ll try DB bench and see how that feels. Still some discomfort from small things in weird positions, like pushing a door closed with my arm behind my body for example, or just generally abducted.
I would give this quite a bit of time if I were you… even when it doesn’t acutely hurt, its going to be sensitive for awhile. My recommendations above are what I would do to make that shoulder function better, what you did to hurt yourself this time was acute and could happen to anyone with perfect shoulder function from the sound of it.
Serratus exercises help because they assist, along with the lower traps in keeping your scapula tight to your ribcage when you are doing pressing exercises, be it dips, pushups, overhead press or even bench, contrary to popular belief.
To use your serratus, first you have to find it, go look online and see some pictures then try to find the muscle on yourself. Then, when you do pushups, try to angle your upper arm around 45 degrees from your body or so and keep your serratus tight as you go down and when you come up. You should have an obvious sense of shoulder stability when concentrating on it in this way. Additionally, if you are doing proper overhead presses, you should be aware that the serratus is assisting in the movement greatly.
When you go to do something with your arm, a certain type of lift, it is important that the force you try to exert with that arm does not overwhelm the force of the muscles that are stabilizing the scapula, if that happens your scapula slides (upward often) and that is when you get impingement.
[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
I would give this quite a bit of time if I were you… even when it doesn’t acutely hurt, its going to be sensitive for awhile. My recommendations above are what I would do to make that shoulder function better, what you did to hurt yourself this time was acute and could happen to anyone with perfect shoulder function from the sound of it.
[/quote]
What exactly would you recommend doing then? You mentioned maybe some push ups but do you reccomend anything else other than that and avoiding flaring elbows? Or maybe it would be easier to say which exercises should be avoided then.
I had shoulder surgery about 5 months ago for a torn labrum in my left shoulder. You really should get it looked at (MRI) You said that you always thought you’d need surgery… IMO its better to get it out of the way (if its necessary)
my shoulder still isnt 100% yet but its getting pretty close. Good luck with whatevers going on with your shoulder. Hopefully it all works out
.greg.
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
[quote]plateau wrote:
Had a similar pain at the tail end of last year, tried working round for it a month.
Didn’t get much better, and I was getting increasingly frustrated in the gym. Found the best local physio took about 4 weeks and I was 99% happy with the shoulder again.
She said the RC was causing impingement, had me doing external rotations and lower scap work at the end of every session focusing on speed to work through the impingement and try and up the weight which doubled in the 4 weeks. Also she had me pull out YTLWs from my mobility work at the start of my workout.
Stretchin and ice after every workout and massage. Obviously I’m not a student so could afford this.
Good luck.
[/quote]
I’ve just started doing the YTWL’s before pushing workouts (should probably do it for all of them though) and about to start icing. Man I’m really hoping it’s not the same issue you mentioned, although it’s really not seeming to be improving. Is what you mentioned she had you do “after every session” in addition to something she spent time doing that you/I couldn’t do alone?
[/quote]
She didn’t want me doing YTWLs BEFORE training as she didn’t want me training with my RC or lower traps tired, she din’t tell me to stop pressing just to stop pressing where I get pain.
Ts are external rotations
Ys work the lower/mid traps
I did PMSH and trap raises after EVERY workout - regardless of what the workout was. She gave me soft tissue work once a week, first session we did the 2 exercises together just to check I understood and wasn’t a complete retard!
Actually I still see her every month, got some lovely burst blood vessels and bruises on my forearms this morning!
[quote]gregron wrote:
I had shoulder surgery about 5 months ago for a torn labrum in my left shoulder. You really should get it looked at (MRI) You said that you always thought you’d need surgery… IMO its better to get it out of the way (if its necessary)
my shoulder still isnt 100% yet but its getting pretty close. Good luck with whatevers going on with your shoulder. Hopefully it all works out
.greg.[/quote]
Thanks. I’ve always heard that generally after shoulder surgery it’s never the same again (never back to being totally normal), has that been you’re experience or does it seem like you’ll be back to 100% in the future? I’m guessing you had to stop lifting for awhile?
[quote]plateau wrote:
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
[quote]plateau wrote:
Had a similar pain at the tail end of last year, tried working round for it a month.
Didn’t get much better, and I was getting increasingly frustrated in the gym. Found the best local physio took about 4 weeks and I was 99% happy with the shoulder again.
She said the RC was causing impingement, had me doing external rotations and lower scap work at the end of every session focusing on speed to work through the impingement and try and up the weight which doubled in the 4 weeks. Also she had me pull out YTLWs from my mobility work at the start of my workout.
Stretchin and ice after every workout and massage. Obviously I’m not a student so could afford this.
Good luck.
[/quote]
I’ve just started doing the YTWL’s before pushing workouts (should probably do it for all of them though) and about to start icing. Man I’m really hoping it’s not the same issue you mentioned, although it’s really not seeming to be improving. Is what you mentioned she had you do “after every session” in addition to something she spent time doing that you/I couldn’t do alone?
[/quote]
She didn’t want me doing YTWLs BEFORE training as she didn’t want me training with my RC or lower traps tired, she din’t tell me to stop pressing just to stop pressing where I get pain.
Ts are external rotations
Ys work the lower/mid traps
I did PMSH and trap raises after EVERY workout - regardless of what the workout was. She gave me soft tissue work once a week, first session we did the 2 exercises together just to check I understood and wasn’t a complete retard!
Actually I still see her every month, got some lovely burst blood vessels and bruises on my forearms this morning![/quote]
OK so after each workout you would do external rotations and lower trap work (T&Y) along with icing it and stretching (any particular stretch?)? I’ll make sure to do it at the end of my workout then.
What is PMSH?
Oh and is there anything in particular you do before workouts to warm up the joint or anything?
Mate i’ve had this problem lots in the past, though at present it seems like my few preventitive measures mean i may never have it again 
I do high-rep facepulls (BIKE ones) at the end of every workout. 25-30 reps witha weight I could lift 50 times, focuisng on the squeeZe at peak contrACtion, for a few sets. Band pull-aparts with bungee cord, to the face, so that your thumbs end up facing behind/away from you would be a good exercise to do also. I found Ys hurt my shoulder. Before eACh workout I do Ts, Ps (look up nick tumminello LYTP) and scAp wall slides, then one set of externAl rotations and internal rotaTions for eACh arm. DO NOT GO TO FAILURE. This is just to aCtivAte muscles which weren’t probAbly firing optimAlly. Seriously, this works lovely for me. I hAda chAt with rAsturAi about this, you could look thaT up for more ideAs.
All this is good stuff, but I would fuck fAce pulls if I could, they Are that good. (ps fucking caps key is being funny on the keyboard, sorry my post reads like a rAnsom note in plAces)
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
I would give this quite a bit of time if I were you… even when it doesn’t acutely hurt, its going to be sensitive for awhile. My recommendations above are what I would do to make that shoulder function better, what you did to hurt yourself this time was acute and could happen to anyone with perfect shoulder function from the sound of it.
[/quote]
What exactly would you recommend doing then? You mentioned maybe some push ups but do you reccomend anything else other than that and avoiding flaring elbows? Or maybe it would be easier to say which exercises should be avoided then.[/quote]
As I said before, you need to find your serratus and make sure that it is working both concentrically and eccentrically during a serratus strengthening exercise. Pushups can be used for this purpose, you just have to practice using your serratus during the eccentric by keeping it tight. Also, doing external rotations side lying with a towel between your upper arm and the side of your torso.
Side-Lying External Rotation - YouTube use a towel between your torso and your upper arm and start with probably a 3lb d bell focus on squeezing your infraspinatus, you should feel it in the belly of the infraspinatus not wrapping around the side of the shoulder.
Then do a lower trap exercise that you can feel working. Wall slides etc… In the meantime, dont do something that hurts your shoulder. You’ll be able to do presses and such again, but the point right now is to strengthen your shoulders.
I’m not sure I would get an MRI if I were you, if it feels that bad, and that its not getting better, then maybe you should. You be the judge. But keep this in mind. Many orthopedic surgeons have no idea what the fuck they are doing in that the way they “fix” things is to cut them apart and put them back together. Most are not going to tell you all you have to do is give your shoulder some time AND THEN rehab it even if they think that would do the trick.
My shoulders are perfectly fine and I guarantee you I could get an orthopedic surgeon to cut me if I went in complaining of pain and begged him to do something. Most people just dont know any better.
The main thing is to put anything on hold that bothers your shoulder.
Also, Dannyrat is right about not going to failure, and about doing internal rotations as well they are important too.
Which one is the proper way to do the wall slides?
I appreciate all the help guys. Is there a specific way you could recommend putting this together? Or just let me know if this is ok:
At the end of my (each?) workout do…
-2 or so runs through LYTP/YTWP
-External Rotations for 2 light sets
-Internal Rotations for 2 light sets
-Wall sides (reps/sets?)
-Face pulls for 2 high rep light sets (are light rear lateral raises an OK replacement when no pulley is available?)
I think that covers just about everything.
On another note I tried skull crushers today to replace floor press and it hurt too much. I did DB press and it wasn’t too bad actually but did feel uncomfortable.
I know this is contrary to a prev. comment but i’d recommend doing some work before, some after lifting. The before wakes up the dormant muscles which lead to you having an impingement in the first place, IME. Obviously ignore this preference of mine if you want.
RE the face pulls, the pos flyes would be ok, but if you can get one, i just have a bungee cord (with hooks on the end, think its designed for camping) and i grab that a bit in (away from hooks!) and tear it apart, pulling into external rotation, so the middle of the cord reaches the bridge of my nose, forearms parallel to ears, and my midback is contracted. I do this for many reps, until i get a pump in pos.delts, and found this to be an acceptable alternative to facepulls.
Wall slides: simple. back up to a wall. forearms parallel to ears. Contract midback (rhomboids, low/mid traps etc)Keeping backs of hands (and ideally, the forearms) in contact with the wall at all times, raise arms overhead, until you start to lose tightness in the back. Then, slide down, to lowest point (imagine your doing an isometric lat pulldown). Repeat. i do about 15-20 reps, just to wake up the muscles involved. Good form is key, and will help good posture.
SERIOSULY dannyrat presents good info, I know he spoke of my name in this thread and his post helped me a lot before!
Do the LYTP helped me A LOT, but do them exactly as outlined in the article. As well I do them on the swiss ball and I really feel that thorasic endurance he talks about it, and you really maintain that good posture and your back will feel it!
BIKE face pulls.
I also do with tennisball/golf ball soft tissue work on my post. delt and I’ve got a lot of tightness in there…and I’ve been doing posterior delt stretches.
On a side note I went to my ART therapist as well for my shoulder cause he’s real good at it, he said all the stuff I’m doing is great and to keep up with it and he did his magic.
Continaully though I still have SOME pain in certain areas with my shoulder…but overall it efels way better. I didn’t do ANY upeprbody work for 4 months…tahts a real long time…for the first while I thought it would just go away by itself…it felt a bit better…but obviosuly not well enough.
Other things is I’ve been doing TONS of back work, rowing etc etc. I think that is helping me as well.
I prssed the other day…it’s been 4 months since pressing and I got 75x10, 100x10, 115x10 on the db bench…I used to db’s to see the strength difference in arms…right was a bit stronger but overall I am happy with that result after so long of no pressing.
I’m gonig to start incorporating external work and internal work…ART therapist said the external work would probably bug my shoulder more but he has given me the green light for it now…and well it feels so much better and I have much more ROM now…but still both shoulders are tight…(left shoulder is the one that got injured BTW)
as far as my shoulder, well its almost back to 100%… Its been almost 5 months and will probably take a couple more before its all better but right now Im at about 90-95% probably.
I couldn’t lift for 2 months or so and was doing a lot of band work (i had a really good physical therapist) and my mobility came back really quickly. After I was able to get back in the gym I started doing the YTWL’s and the floor slides (never done wall slides just laying on my back) and I feel like that has really helped my shoulder strength, mobility and stability.
.greg.
You have to see how your body works with YTWL or LYTP, many people that have shoulder problems end up trying to muscle their way through the movement, especially at the top because their lower trap and serratus are not functioning correctly. See how those exercises feel for you.