F**k My Shoulders

… as opposed to fuck my life.

Ok. The physio appointment is being scheduled tommorrow so I am seeking a professionals opinion but I would like some info/advice on recommendations from you guys cos from experience physios tend to not understand the importance of training and tend to just say stop training everything and do some remedial work so…

First, the problem, stated in soreness associated with certain exercises:

Side lateral raises - some sort of impingement/cracking when i do them.
Shoulder press/BTN press - pain in the joint. no cracking or “electric shocks”
Front lateral raises - pressure on collarbone/slight cracking.
Cable rows - fine on the pull, but on the eccentric(negative) an “electric shock” if i got to far forward.

So those are the conditions… Thoughts on rotator cuff work? Articles on remedies? Stories of similar injuries?

Plus… When benching/DB benching my shoulders are fine. Squats fine. Everything else fine. So I was thinking of eliminating most shoulder work until their fixed. So a workout day such as push day would be something like:

  • flat bb bench
  • incline db bench
  • cgbp
  • then high rep shoulder bb press prob 10-12 reps
  • then some skullcrushers,pushdowns for tris

Recommendations? Anyone else eliminate or significantly reduce their shoulder work because of shoulder problems??

Cueball could you help, maybe?? I hear you had some shoulder issues if i remember correctly?

Have so separated your shoulder? Any pain with dips? Is the pain and cracking on the top of the shoulder, near the end of the collar bone?

I didn’t train my shoulders or chest for about a month after separating one of my shoulders, and after that it was a long recovery, but I’m happy to say my shoulder feels really good now.

  1. Go to a doctor.
  2. Get an MRI
  3. PM someone like BushidoBadBoy

Buy some bands and start traing youre shoulders with them, I recomend Rip Cords.I use them for side lats rear flyes presses everything.Bad shoulders suck.

There’s an old addage about shoulder training and it goes “leave youre ego at the door on shoulder day”

[quote]ucallthatbass wrote:
Have so separated your shoulder? Any pain with dips? Is the pain and cracking on the top of the shoulder, near the end of the collar bone?[/quote]

Why do you say that?

[quote]tommytoughnuts wrote:

[quote]ucallthatbass wrote:
Have so separated your shoulder? Any pain with dips? Is the pain and cracking on the top of the shoulder, near the end of the collar bone?[/quote]

Why do you say that?[/quote]
The location of the pain could be an indication of AC-joint involvement. But there are more signs and symptoms that should be included.

I’m with C_C on this one.

I am an elite asshole, but not professional anything. Other people’s opinions may contain valuable information.

I don’t know if the reason you are doing so much BB work is because you are a powerlifter, but you should stop until your shoulder is in better condition. One reason many Olympic Lifters do not do Bench Presses is because it freezes their shoulders. Any Barbell Pressing movement (and any other movement where your wrists cannot move freely during the press, such as pushups and dips) has this potential, but it is by far the most common with Bench Presses. Possibly because bench presses are very common. You may think that because you do not get pain when doing bench presses that is not the cause, but it probably is anyway and the pain you experience otherwise is caused by your acclimatization to the BB Bench Pressing you are doing. It’s possible there are other causes as well or instead, but I would look at BB Pressing and particularly BB Bench Pressing first.

When you are pressing a barbell, your wrists are fixed but your elbows are not. As your set gets harder (or your one rep, whatever you are doing) you will unconsciously try to bring your elbows in to shift the load you are pressing from your shoulders/pecs to your triceps, which are in a stronger position in terms of leverage. The degree to which your triceps are stronger than your pecs/shoulders will vary based on your unique muscle insertion points and your performance style, but the trend that triceps are the fallback muscle in BB pressing movements is very common.

When your elbows come in during your press while your wrists stay fixed, you end up doing an arm-wrestling-like movement as you press that looks similar to a little girl throwing a punch. A common scenario among gym rats like me is for the rotator cuff to end doing a huge amount of work, and instead of getting stronger, the muscles simply freeze. Then you have to go see a specialist, like your appointment tomorrow.

Switch to Dumbells ONLY for pressing for the next couple of months. Try to keep your elbows directly under your wrists, and be aware the degree to which your shoulders “shrug” forward and backward while you move the weight. Don’t do presses from behind your head ever again unless you have some specific reason from a coach who is coaching YOU, not writing a program on the internet. Dumbells are best, but I know you want the weight you can use with a barbell.

I know that you are talking about a cracking noise in your shoulder while doing lateral raises. Lateral raises are not the cause, pressing with a fixed wrist position most likely is. I would bet you are doing a chest/triceps/shoulders day, though you may notice signs of this/these problem(s) on other days. Bench Presses and Pushdowns will create and reinforce this problem, and if you do lateral raises next you have frozen your shoulders and done nothing to loosen them up before transitioning into a movement that involves some external rotation >>> noise. Good thing you aren’t using the weight on lateral raises you are using on these other movements.

In the future, make sure that you move your arms through a full range of rotation as part of a warm up before any workout. Parts of warm ups include swinging your arms in circles, bending your elbow at 90 degrees and rotating your forearm so that a)your fingers start pointing at your left side, then point to your right side, then return, while your arm hangs down from your shoulder, and b) your fingers point up, then down, then return while you hold your upper arm parallel to the floor. You can add resistance to these movements if you want, but use some hollow tubing or something, not a dumbell or weight plate. I see fools in my gym treating these exercises like they could potentially create inroad or stimulate growth. The purpose of these mobility exercises is simply to access and activate your Rotator Cuff’s muscles. You don’t jerk off to build a callus, don’t do mobility drills to build muscle.

You may also want to start doing exercises that incorporate shoulder rotation (and aspects of it) as part of a movement chain. Some exercises I use include Dumbell Snatches, Dumbell Cleans and Presses, explosive pushups, and so forth. Taking some time to swim or play basketball (methodically = not once and never again, but once per week once you have recovered, and more often until then) or whatever is appropriate to you can also help you use these muscles in non-specific movement patterns, which will also help you build and maintain healthier shoulders.

A blanket T-Nation recommendation is to balance your pushing movements with your pulling movements. For additional meaningful T-Nation advice, look up Eric Cressey’s Shoulder Savers 1, 2, and 3, and Cracking The Rotator Cuff Conundrum, also by Cressey. For ways to incorporate DB Snatches/Cleans+Presses, you may want to check out Scott Abel’s YouTube Channel and look up The Intimidator.

[quote]meshuggah wrote:
I am an elite asshole, but not professional anything. Other people’s opinions may contain valuable information.

I don’t know if the reason you are doing so much BB work is because you are a powerlifter, but you should stop until your shoulder is in better condition. One reason many Olympic Lifters do not do Bench Presses is because it freezes their shoulders. Any Barbell Pressing movement (and any other movement where your wrists cannot move freely during the press, such as pushups and dips) has this potential, but it is by far the most common with Bench Presses. Possibly because bench presses are very common. You may think that because you do not get pain when doing bench presses that is not the cause, but it probably is anyway and the pain you experience otherwise is caused by your acclimatization to the BB Bench Pressing you are doing. It’s possible there are other causes as well or instead, but I would look at BB Pressing and particularly BB Bench Pressing first.

When you are pressing a barbell, your wrists are fixed but your elbows are not. As your set gets harder (or your one rep, whatever you are doing) you will unconsciously try to bring your elbows in to shift the load you are pressing from your shoulders/pecs to your triceps, which are in a stronger position in terms of leverage. The degree to which your triceps are stronger than your pecs/shoulders will vary based on your unique muscle insertion points and your performance style, but the trend that triceps are the fallback muscle in BB pressing movements is very common.

When your elbows come in during your press while your wrists stay fixed, you end up doing an arm-wrestling-like movement as you press that looks similar to a little girl throwing a punch. A common scenario among gym rats like me is for the rotator cuff to end doing a huge amount of work, and instead of getting stronger, the muscles simply freeze. Then you have to go see a specialist, like your appointment tomorrow.

Switch to Dumbells ONLY for pressing for the next couple of months. Try to keep your elbows directly under your wrists, and be aware the degree to which your shoulders “shrug” forward and backward while you move the weight. Don’t do presses from behind your head ever again unless you have some specific reason from a coach who is coaching YOU, not writing a program on the internet. Dumbells are best, but I know you want the weight you can use with a barbell.

I know that you are talking about a cracking noise in your shoulder while doing lateral raises. Lateral raises are not the cause, pressing with a fixed wrist position most likely is. I would bet you are doing a chest/triceps/shoulders day, though you may notice signs of this/these problem(s) on other days. Bench Presses and Pushdowns will create and reinforce this problem, and if you do lateral raises next you have frozen your shoulders and done nothing to loosen them up before transitioning into a movement that involves some external rotation >>> noise. Good thing you aren’t using the weight on lateral raises you are using on these other movements.

In the future, make sure that you move your arms through a full range of rotation as part of a warm up before any workout. Parts of warm ups include swinging your arms in circles, bending your elbow at 90 degrees and rotating your forearm so that a)your fingers start pointing at your left side, then point to your right side, then return, while your arm hangs down from your shoulder, and b) your fingers point up, then down, then return while you hold your upper arm parallel to the floor. You can add resistance to these movements if you want, but use some hollow tubing or something, not a dumbell or weight plate. I see fools in my gym treating these exercises like they could potentially create inroad or stimulate growth. The purpose of these mobility exercises is simply to access and activate your Rotator Cuff’s muscles. You don’t jerk off to build a callus, don’t do mobility drills to build muscle.

You may also want to start doing exercises that incorporate shoulder rotation (and aspects of it) as part of a movement chain. Some exercises I use include Dumbell Snatches, Dumbell Cleans and Presses, explosive pushups, and so forth. Taking some time to swim or play basketball (methodically = not once and never again, but once per week once you have recovered, and more often until then) or whatever is appropriate to you can also help you use these muscles in non-specific movement patterns, which will also help you build and maintain healthier shoulders.

A blanket T-Nation recommendation is to balance your pushing movements with your pulling movements. For additional meaningful T-Nation advice, look up Eric Cressey’s Shoulder Savers 1, 2, and 3, and Cracking The Rotator Cuff Conundrum, also by Cressey. For ways to incorporate DB Snatches/Cleans+Presses, you may want to check out Scott Abel’s YouTube Channel and look up The Intimidator.[/quote]

Seriously, did you type all that out. Point form, man, point form.

You have to find the right physical therapist. There are physical therapists which work with athletes, and they will help you figure out how you can still lift while fixing your shoulders. If you go to a fat-woman-bosu-ball physio, you will not get the kind of help you need.

[quote]aeyogi wrote:
You have to find the right physical therapist. There are physical therapists which work with athletes, and they will help you figure out how you can still lift while fixing your shoulders. If you go to a fat-woman-bosu-ball physio, you will not get the kind of help you need.[/quote]

Yeah should prob find a sport physio, cheers, was just going to go to the local.

[quote]meshuggah wrote:
I am an elite asshole, but not professional anything. Other people’s opinions may contain valuable information.

I don’t know if the reason you are doing so much BB work is because you are a powerlifter, but you should stop until your shoulder is in better condition. One reason many Olympic Lifters do not do Bench Presses is because it freezes their shoulders. Any Barbell Pressing movement (and any other movement where your wrists cannot move freely during the press, such as pushups and dips) has this potential, but it is by far the most common with Bench Presses. Possibly because bench presses are very common. You may think that because you do not get pain when doing bench presses that is not the cause, but it probably is anyway and the pain you experience otherwise is caused by your acclimatization to the BB Bench Pressing you are doing. It’s possible there are other causes as well or instead, but I would look at BB Pressing and particularly BB Bench Pressing first.

When you are pressing a barbell, your wrists are fixed but your elbows are not. As your set gets harder (or your one rep, whatever you are doing) you will unconsciously try to bring your elbows in to shift the load you are pressing from your shoulders/pecs to your triceps, which are in a stronger position in terms of leverage. The degree to which your triceps are stronger than your pecs/shoulders will vary based on your unique muscle insertion points and your performance style, but the trend that triceps are the fallback muscle in BB pressing movements is very common.

When your elbows come in during your press while your wrists stay fixed, you end up doing an arm-wrestling-like movement as you press that looks similar to a little girl throwing a punch. A common scenario among gym rats like me is for the rotator cuff to end doing a huge amount of work, and instead of getting stronger, the muscles simply freeze. Then you have to go see a specialist, like your appointment tomorrow.

Switch to Dumbells ONLY for pressing for the next couple of months. Try to keep your elbows directly under your wrists, and be aware the degree to which your shoulders “shrug” forward and backward while you move the weight. Don’t do presses from behind your head ever again unless you have some specific reason from a coach who is coaching YOU, not writing a program on the internet. Dumbells are best, but I know you want the weight you can use with a barbell.

I know that you are talking about a cracking noise in your shoulder while doing lateral raises. Lateral raises are not the cause, pressing with a fixed wrist position most likely is. I would bet you are doing a chest/triceps/shoulders day, though you may notice signs of this/these problem(s) on other days. Bench Presses and Pushdowns will create and reinforce this problem, and if you do lateral raises next you have frozen your shoulders and done nothing to loosen them up before transitioning into a movement that involves some external rotation >>> noise. Good thing you aren’t using the weight on lateral raises you are using on these other movements.

In the future, make sure that you move your arms through a full range of rotation as part of a warm up before any workout. Parts of warm ups include swinging your arms in circles, bending your elbow at 90 degrees and rotating your forearm so that a)your fingers start pointing at your left side, then point to your right side, then return, while your arm hangs down from your shoulder, and b) your fingers point up, then down, then return while you hold your upper arm parallel to the floor. You can add resistance to these movements if you want, but use some hollow tubing or something, not a dumbell or weight plate. I see fools in my gym treating these exercises like they could potentially create inroad or stimulate growth. The purpose of these mobility exercises is simply to access and activate your Rotator Cuff’s muscles. You don’t jerk off to build a callus, don’t do mobility drills to build muscle.

You may also want to start doing exercises that incorporate shoulder rotation (and aspects of it) as part of a movement chain. Some exercises I use include Dumbell Snatches, Dumbell Cleans and Presses, explosive pushups, and so forth. Taking some time to swim or play basketball (methodically = not once and never again, but once per week once you have recovered, and more often until then) or whatever is appropriate to you can also help you use these muscles in non-specific movement patterns, which will also help you build and maintain healthier shoulders.

A blanket T-Nation recommendation is to balance your pushing movements with your pulling movements. For additional meaningful T-Nation advice, look up Eric Cressey’s Shoulder Savers 1, 2, and 3, and Cracking The Rotator Cuff Conundrum, also by Cressey. For ways to incorporate DB Snatches/Cleans+Presses, you may want to check out Scott Abel’s YouTube Channel and look up The Intimidator.[/quote]

Wah? I know your trying to help but i said i do dumbbell work didnt I? Plus i also said my pressing movements - incline/flat BB - dont hurt. Only raises and seated presses. Cheers anywho.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

  1. Go to a doctor.
  2. Get an MRI
  3. PM someone like BushidoBadBoy

[/quote]
Hahaha you are always straight to the point. I love that. Yeah the scan i think is definately needed to see whether their is an impingement. My mum has the same sort of entrapment of her shoulders, like theres somethings click on raising movements. She had an accident a while ago and cant lift her arm above head high. :frowning:

Thanks guys. I might start some rotator cuff work and reduce the shoulder load for the next coulple of weeks till the appointment and the scans.

Just a thought. Could sleeping wrong on my shoulder do it? I know i slept wrong 4 weeks ago and felt it 3 days later. Not being able to lift a bottle of wine above my head (lateral raise motion). How should i sleep? Is their a right/wrong way?? I guess the hurting part was the wrong way :wink:

Yes, sleeping on your shoulder(s) is the last thing you want to do as someone who weighs more than 120…
3/4 turned, sleeping on stomach, on back… Thing is, at some point you may want to invest in a good (adjustable perhaps) mattress and some proper pillows… Having too hard a matress is hell on the shoulders no matter how you sleep, as is a very soft one (that would probably kill your back, too)…
Having lots of pillows available is nice in general :slight_smile: You can even sleep on the side with enough pillows under your arm and head, but I still wouldn’t recommend it. Awkward on the rib cage area in my case…

As for that lateral motion to overhead… Supraspinatus problem? Well, pm BBB and if possible get that MRI.

[quote]Tatsu wrote:

[quote]tommytoughnuts wrote:

[quote]ucallthatbass wrote:
Have so separated your shoulder? Any pain with dips? Is the pain and cracking on the top of the shoulder, near the end of the collar bone?[/quote]

Why do you say that?[/quote]
The location of the pain could be an indication of AC-joint involvement. But there are more signs and symptoms that should be included.

I’m with C_C on this one.[/quote]

Tommy, Tatsu answered for me. Pro get an MRI.

I would stop all movements that cause any type of pain. I have had serious shoulder pain and did the following to get out of surgery for years.

  1. Broomstick stretch. Take a broomstick or piece of PVC with it in front of you with your palms facing down. Hold it very wide and slowly lift it overhead til it hits you in the back. Work your way up to ~50 reps. Slowly bring your hands closer and closer together.
  2. Side lying internal rotation stretch. Lie on your side with your upper arm out 90deg from your body and try to palm the floor.
  3. Lie on a foam roller down your spine with your arms are at a 90deg angle and try to get the back of your hands to the floor.
  4. Wall slides. Stand with your feet up against the wall with good posture and slide your hands up and down the wall trying to keep your arms against the wall.
  5. Shrugs
  6. Shoulder depressions
  7. T3
  8. External and internal rotations with dbs not cables or bands
  9. Scap depressions. Seated or standing just rotate your scaps forward and then back and down. I did them on the seated row and standing at the cable crossover machine.

After about a month of doing the above I would try some single arm db overhead presses. Stand staggered stance shoulders level elbow about 45deg palm neutral. Press overhead bringing your bicep to your ear. Slow eccentric and very controlled concentric.
If you can do these for a couple of weeks I would then add face-pulls.

Bill

Alot of this could stem from trying to hit the shoulders as you would chest. By that I mean, trying to isolate the deltoid itself, as if moving the humerus weren’t dependent on more important/complex mechanics especially through the serratus. Many people will talk about lower traps and such which are important, but the lower traps do not exert nearly as strong a pull on the scapula as the serratus, though it does pull in a bit of a different vector.

Alot of problems can stem from from doing shoulder presses with your elbows flared out, you know the way you see pro bodybuilders lift. This puts extraordinary stress on the shoulder, in particular the supraspinatus. I had some serious pain and problems that slowly dissipated once I stopped lifting like a moron.

Sleeping on your shoulders is very bad as the other posters have mentioned, it can encourage your pec minor to become tight as it brings your coracoid process closer to the insertion on the ribs. This tightness in the pec minor acts in direct opposition to the positive scapular depressing effects of the serratus and lower trap. In my experience, a tight pec minor will win every time in this situation.

My money is on your form being terrible on shoulder presses. Also, having a tight infraspinatus can make overhead presses impossible to do correctly since you lack the ability to internally rotate the humerus as the bar goes overhead.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Yes, sleeping on your shoulder(s) is the last thing you want to do as someone who weighs more than 120…
3/4 turned, sleeping on stomach, on back… Thing is, at some point you may want to invest in a good (adjustable perhaps) mattress and some proper pillows… Having too hard a matress is hell on the shoulders no matter how you sleep, as is a very soft one (that would probably kill your back, too)…
Having lots of pillows available is nice in general :slight_smile: You can even sleep on the side with enough pillows under your arm and head, but I still wouldn’t recommend it. Awkward on the rib cage area in my case…

As for that lateral motion to overhead… Supraspinatus problem? Well, pm BBB and if possible get that MRI.

[/quote]

Yeah i will thanks man, i think the whole sleeping on my shoulder thing is a problem more than i thought, cos from things ppl have said and the fact that sometimes i wake up sore sometimes makes me think its a large factor plus shoulder mobility as well.

[quote]BillO21 wrote:
I would stop all movements that cause any type of pain. I have had serious shoulder pain and did the following to get out of surgery for years.

  1. Broomstick stretch. Take a broomstick or piece of PVC with it in front of you with your palms facing down. Hold it very wide and slowly lift it overhead til it hits you in the back. Work your way up to ~50 reps. Slowly bring your hands closer and closer together.
  2. Side lying internal rotation stretch. Lie on your side with your upper arm out 90deg from your body and try to palm the floor.
  3. Lie on a foam roller down your spine with your arms are at a 90deg angle and try to get the back of your hands to the floor.
  4. Wall slides. Stand with your feet up against the wall with good posture and slide your hands up and down the wall trying to keep your arms against the wall.
  5. Shrugs
  6. Shoulder depressions
  7. T3
  8. External and internal rotations with dbs not cables or bands
  9. Scap depressions. Seated or standing just rotate your scaps forward and then back and down. I did them on the seated row and standing at the cable crossover machine.

After about a month of doing the above I would try some single arm db overhead presses. Stand staggered stance shoulders level elbow about 45deg palm neutral. Press overhead bringing your bicep to your ear. Slow eccentric and very controlled concentric.
If you can do these for a couple of weeks I would then add face-pulls.

Bill
[/quote]

Wow, some good stuff, going to get right on the broomstick stretches cos i did them in the past and started seeing results and then got lazy. One big thing im learning from all this is laziness in terms of stretching, injury prevention and mobility drills really can hurt. Thanks, you look like ur going to be a valuable member on these forums.

[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
Alot of this could stem from trying to hit the shoulders as you would chest. By that I mean, trying to isolate the deltoid itself, as if moving the humerus weren’t dependent on more important/complex mechanics especially through the serratus. Many people will talk about lower traps and such which are important, but the lower traps do not exert nearly as strong a pull on the scapula as the serratus, though it does pull in a bit of a different vector.

Alot of problems can stem from from doing shoulder presses with your elbows flared out, you know the way you see pro bodybuilders lift. This puts extraordinary stress on the shoulder, in particular the supraspinatus. I had some serious pain and problems that slowly dissipated once I stopped lifting like a moron.

Sleeping on your shoulders is very bad as the other posters have mentioned, it can encourage your pec minor to become tight as it brings your coracoid process closer to the insertion on the ribs. This tightness in the pec minor acts in direct opposition to the positive scapular depressing effects of the serratus and lower trap. In my experience, a tight pec minor will win every time in this situation.

My money is on your form being terrible on shoulder presses. Also, having a tight infraspinatus can make overhead presses impossible to do correctly since you lack the ability to internally rotate the humerus as the bar goes overhead.[/quote]

Yeah i am going to take out shoulder exercises till i get this fixed. The last three posts have opened my mind to things i hadnt thought of. This is why i come on here a lot. Good advice. And filter the shit. I think ur thoughts on a tight pec (my right cos i sleep on it) may be a big factor cos it does seem to come further forward then my other one. Ill look into it thanks.

Well I have my first appointment with an ART (active release technique) therapist on Wednesday following long-standing issues with my AC joint. An osteopath re-set the joint but it’s still goosed, so if this don’t work I’m probably fucked.
I’m restricted to all but push-ups for chest/shoulders, etc. I can still use rowing movements for back but chins, etc, are also a no no. When it did improve recently I eased back into flat DB presses but pain emerged in the clavicle area and I now also fear I may have to re-visit an osteopath to be re-aligned. However, I’m waiting to see what the ART therapist says and I’ll take it from there.
My advice to anyone who develops pain in the AC joint area is not to fuck about with training around it, etc. Address it with all means available ASAP, e.g. NSAIDs, rest (zero training), ice, physio, etc.

While you’re taking some time off from the shoulder exercises you might want to look into buying The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook 2nd Ed. by Clair Davies. There’s a section on how self-treatment for the shoulder musculature (as well as the rest of the body). A suggestion from the book is to lean against a wall with a tennis/lacrosse ball and roll the ball from top to bottom. Since your lateral raises show “sort of impingement/cracking when i do them” this may provide some relief.