Shoulder Problems From Snatch

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
1

The wieghtlifting program at the college I am going to for javelin throwers-
(its an event in track and field)
-is sound, But I question that the college is stressing javelin throwers to work the full snatch too much. It is the main lift in their program.

One of my friends went to the college while they were stressing the snatch

(they shifted from doing mainly power cleans in their program because of its supposed stress on the elbows, which Ive found to be true if your not putting your elbows up all the way when balancing the bar on the chest at the end of the lift)

And she had an incident
(when doing the snatch) where she was doing so much wieght that her arms went backwards-flung behind her head along with all the wieght and “killed her shoulder”
(she has hyperextension in her…upper body/arms or something so she never got injured)

I have been working on my snatch lately for the college-before I only did it sometimes-I was doing jerks/military presses/rows/etc. most of the time and havent cut those out of my program yet

Im focusing on getting my snatch up even though I find my intuition saying that this exercise could seriously hurt the shoulder if not fully controlled when attempting high amounts of wieght. I never feel fully in control and have been doing the exercise on and off for four years, if I were boxier and shorter-yes-but I am not and a lot of javelin throwers I know are not either.

I want him (the coach) to at least consider hang snatches/hang cleans over full power cleans and snatches.
Ive found the hang clean-to-front squat move to be less stressful on the elbows also.

I need evidence to support the fact that my intuition is right or wrong about snatches. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

2

I actually have to disagree you, for the most part.

Obviously if you aren’t doing an exercise properly or have an injury or something that is causing pain… yeah obviusly you shouldn’t be doing that. That’s more of an individual thing so I can’t really comment.

With that said, I think the snatch the related movements (overhead squat, push jerk, snatch balance, etc.) are great movements- better than clean variants, IMO. There is more acceleration than cleans and I think there is less ability to “muscle it up.” Additonally, it really is one of the few lifts that are truly, “total body” and requires such stability throughout your whole body. Personally I feel like overhead work, especially overhead squats, have really helped my shoulder feel more stable- and I’m someone who’s struggled with a lot of shoulder problems (college volleyball player), although it’s the opposite problem, being too tight rather than loose.

Obviously you should be coached in the proper ways to ditch the lift, I’m not sure if a max single is the best idea for a non-weightlifting athlete. I’ve never worked up for a max single, only with ligher weights, typically 40-70% of my best overhead squat and just focusing on explosion. To me, the speed, stabilty and firing patterns of an explosive lift are more important than the weight.

As an athlete, if you feel a movement or method is setting you up for potential injury, obviousy there is no way you should be doing that lift. Strength lifting is general and thus comes second to the sport. However, the snatch and it’s variants are great lifts and I feel like a healthy athlete (probably an oxymoron as we all have some sort of nagging injury) should be able to peform the snatch and overhead squat if coached properly.

I defintily agree with you that there is no reason to do the snatch or clean from the floor, it just adds an unneeded technical element, IMO. CT has written a lot of stuff about this.

3

You need to practice dumping a weight behind your body with light weights. Learning how to miss a lift in both the snatch and the clean is very important. Once you’ve practiced this, hopefully you will feel more confident that in the heavy weights that there is minimal risk of injury from misses. This will then allow you to focus more on the lift and less on the fear of injury.

4

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
I actually have to disagree you, for the most part.

Obviously if you aren’t doing an exercise properly or have an injury or something that is causing pain… yeah obviusly you shouldn’t be doing that. That’s more of an individual thing so I can’t really comment.

With that said, I think the snatch the related movements (overhead squat, push jerk, snatch balance, etc.) are great movements- better than clean variants, IMO. There is more acceleration than cleans and I think there is less ability to “muscle it up.” Additonally, it really is one of the few lifts that are truly, “total body” and requires such stability throughout your whole body. Personally I feel like overhead work, especially overhead squats, have really helped my shoulder feel more stable- and I’m someone who’s struggled with a lot of shoulder problems (college volleyball player), although it’s the opposite problem, being too tight rather than loose.

Obviously you should be coached in the proper ways to ditch the lift, I’m not sure if a max single is the best idea for a non-weightlifting athlete. I’ve never worked up for a max single, only with ligher weights, typically 40-70% of my best overhead squat and just focusing on explosion. To me, the speed, stabilty and firing patterns of an explosive lift are more important than the weight.

As an athlete, if you feel a movement or method is setting you up for potential injury, obviousy there is no way you should be doing that lift. Strength lifting is general and thus comes second to the sport. However, the snatch and it’s variants are great lifts and I feel like a healthy athlete (probably an oxymoron as we all have some sort of nagging injury) should be able to peform the snatch and overhead squat if coached properly.

I defintily agree with you that there is no reason to do the snatch or clean from the floor, it just adds an unneeded technical element, IMO. CT has written a lot of stuff about this.[/quote]

I cant see anywhere that you are diagreeing with me, you are actually agreeing with me on everything.

Really, you wrote my entire arguement. As you said, as an athlete it should be more about the explosiveness/speed than how much weight you can do it with.

And I dont know…if you misinterpreted this…but I am Not my friend and was not the one that hurt my shoulder from snatches…to prove that I am going into A&M and she has already gone there for javelin…threw her best of 157…that is why I know what they do in their entire weightlifting program before getting there in the first place.

I even have the exact same tightness in the shoulders as you, which is bad for jav, but all the same.

5

[quote]julia87 wrote:
I cant see anywhere that you are diagreeing with me, you are actually agreeing with me on everything.

Really, you wrote my entire arguement. As you said, as an athlete it should be more about the explosiveness/speed than how much weight you can do it with.

And I dont know…if you misinterpreted this…but I am Not my friend and was not the one that hurt my shoulder from snatches…to prove that I am going into A&M and she has already gone there for javelin…threw her best of 157…that is why I know what they do in their entire weightlifting program before getting there in the first place.

I even have the exact same tightness in the shoulders as you, which is bad for jav, but all the same.

[/quote]

I knew there was a reason I’m not a humanities major…

6

Julia, heres something…

If he ever ask you to go for the full snatch ask him why. Non competitive weightlifters should stick with power snatch/cleans. From this point, learn to always keep your arms locked and to let the weight go down from the front or the back so that you don’t end up dropping the bar backward in a behind the neck military press fashion (which will without a doubt hyperextend your shoulder).

You could also try snatch jerk to get used to locking out. Get the bar on your back just like a back squat, back up…and jerk it with a snatch grip.

I prefer with my feet parallel instead of split but thats your choice.

Later on try that and after you’ve jerked it, do some overhead squat with it.

7

[quote]Seattle_Lifter wrote:
You need to practice dumping a weight behind your body with light weights. Learning how to miss a lift in both the snatch and the clean is very important. Once you’ve practiced this, hopefully you will feel more confident that in the heavy weights that there is minimal risk of injury from misses. This will then allow you to focus more on the lift and less on the fear of injury.[/quote]

Oh I know how.
Technique-wise Ive worked on all my lifts for so long that the only problem Im still having is not letting my back round during deadlifts and on the snatch I have always had trouble with learning how to kick my butt out alittle more for greater stability.

When I get injured its not from my technique but from me overtraining myself and trainers not understanding and wanting me to max out or do some exercise that is not good for my condition in that particular moment due to my muscles being overworked etc. Sometimes I cannot detect that the exercise will be troublesome and thats usually when I get injured.

When I get to A&M, lifting being a group activity, I will not just be able to say “hey coach, I cant do that weight today because my body is telling me if I do Ill get injured” How do I truly know that is what my body is telling me? Its all based on intuition. The javelin/discus coach there isnt one to put up with that.

Plus trainers tell me I need to take more precautions in powerlifts because Im so tall which I totally understand. Ive only pulled major muscles from wieghtlifting but badly because of overtraining again, and some trainers have worked me out like a football guy and I end up not being able to bench 90 pounds, crying, and throwing up because my body is so fatigued.
(dont worry, I dropped those guys but there are a lot of exfootball players that have powerlifted that are personal trainers, and its hard to find a very good powerlifting coach these days)

I really do not need any chance of being forced into something I know I might get injured in yet Im going to be anyways.

Thats why I wanted some information to support the reasons why I feel more comfortable, can do higher amounts of wieghts, and have not ever been close to feeling like i could be or being injured with hang cleans/hang snatches, front squats
With squats on the back I really feel uncomfortable when having tons of weight packed on my back-only to go home to find I have black bruises where the bars was.
Im also going to have to do squats with the bar on my back at college and I dont know what to do about that too, hopefully they will let me use a towel on the bar
(but even on high amounts of weight that doesnt help either though the bruising isnt as deep)

I also do not know why I get all these bruises on my back and then the next shotput girl comes over and does it and she can do it without feeling like the bar is like a dog biting into her neck bones.

Then I tried lowering the bar onto my back alittle more to ease my traps and you have my skeletal bones sticking out and it KILLS the bone so much that I just want to get in a fetal position and die right there.
Also when I lowered the bar my form went nuts and my back rounded and I couldnt go low without my form going even more bologne and the bar wanting to go forward, actually, my entire body wanted to do a balancing act with the bar being lower on my back so I guess thats what caused the rounding of my back and making everything instincitviely wanting to go forward.

I just dont know what to do.

Ive already oriented my workouts to what feels right, what Im not prone to becoming injured with even when overtraining/having a bad day/sore as hell/muscles arent responding as well as they should.
Now Im going to have to adapt to a program tailored to the mass majority of javelin and discus throwers and not my tailored to my body
(which is typical, usually girls coming into college these days havent had the amount of training I have, I dont know about the guys and what they do in these situations-or if they even have them)

I need information to support at least my ways of lifting being better for me, which is proving to be impossible save Mike Boyle’s article about injuries.
(which was very well written)

If Anyone can help…

8

[quote]Hekk wrote:
Julia, heres something…

If he ever ask you to go for the full snatch ask him why. Non competitive weightlifters should stick with power snatch/cleans. From this point, learn to always keep your arms locked and to let the weight go down from the front or the back so that you don’t end up dropping the bar backward in a behind the neck military press fashion (which will without a doubt hyperextend your shoulder).

You could also try snatch jerk to get used to locking out. Get the bar on your back just like a back squat, back up…and jerk it with a snatch grip.

I prefer with my feet parallel instead of split but thats your choice.

Later on try that and after you’ve jerked it, do some overhead squat with it.[/quote]

Thanks for your and jintrensey’s input!

Before I answer this in full you say Power snatch/clean–is that the same as hang clean/snatch?

And I cant just tell a big 12 coach that something is wrong (the full lifts on clean and snatch) when I have no evidence/facts to back it up.

I have already asked him why he does it and he tells me that it lowers the amounts of stress on the shoulder which I dont think is true because Ive done snatches after throwing my jav and there is still a stress, even moreso than there is with the power clean on the elbows. Yet that is where we disagree and his authority knocks my opinions on this down.

Yeah, Im having trouble with that in the hang snatch-keeping my arms straight. But you dont get as much momentum as in the full snatch, because I do it fine in the full.

Im use to locking out my arms from all the overhead stuff Ive done…Ive never done that exercise you talk about though, jerks behind your head with snatch grip. Id probably knock myself unconscious though :slight_smile:

9

[quote]julia87 wrote:
When I get injured its not from my technique but from me overtraining myself and trainers not understanding and wanting me to max out or do some exercise that is not good for my condition in that particular moment due to my muscles being overworked etc. [/quote]

And therein lies the #1 problem in college athletics… the old “more is better” philosophy. Luckily for me, this only extends to my practice time (ungodly amount of jumping volume, although my body has almost adapted to it provided I ice enough) as my strength coaches really know what they’re doing and also give you a lot of individual freedom in that department.

You think coaches WOULDN’T want overuse injuries to acccumulate during the course of a season???

I could be wrong, but I have heard that overuse injuries have been somewhat common in A&M’s program and a couple athletes haven’t reached full potential because of that.

If you want some literature to show to your coach, I’d suggest some of what Thibaudeau has written about it. If you have either of his books, it’s in there and if not, he’d probably give you permission to use some excerpts to discuss there.

I sympathize though about the coaches… sometimes all you can do is just stick it out and hope your body can handle it.

10

I’m a little confused over which lifts we are talking about here. There are
power snatches/cleans where the bar starts on the floor and you catch the bar with your thighs above parallel (other people have different definitions of how low you can go for it to still qualify as a power lift.) There are the full versions where you go into a full squat during the recovery, Then there are hang versions of both where you start with the bar off the ground, anywhere from just below the knees to the top of where the second pull would normally get you. A lot of throwers swear by close grip power snatches from the floor, but I think every variation has its benefits.

Needing to drop a power snatch of either variety behind you is very rare. In any event, adequate shoulder flexibility and just a little practice losing snatches behind you will remove almost all fear of shoulder injury from doing so.

If you can comfortably do shoulder dislocates with your normal snatch grip, flexibility is not the issue. If not, start working on it. You are a javelin thrower after all. If or when your shoulder flexibility is up to par, just grab an empty bar, or if you have some of those bumper plate sized 5 pounders, load up one of those on each side. Squat to the bottom with the bar overhead in a snatch grip, and just like doing the shoulder dislocates, let the bar fall behind you. Let go of it before it hits the ground. With an emtpy bar, it might smack you in the butt if you don’t let go. (I am most definitly NOT speaking from experience here. No one has ever seen me do that, I swear.) Its easy and fun, but might get you some funny looks from the other lifters.

11

Let me dump my 2 cents worth.

  1. the person you want to talk to about this is Coach Dan John. P.M. him on this message board.

  2. The reason why the olympic lifts are valuable is that they are the single best exercise to teach explosiveness in the hips. Any good athlete in any sport has developed very good explosiveness and power through the hips, and being a javelin thrower is no different.

The other advantage of the olympic lifts is that they require whole body coordination and control. When you flub it, you know.

The question is HOW CAN YOU TRAIN for your sport to develop the explosiveness through the hips without overtraining (the key is always moderation)

You can do a barbell snatch and clean but what about unilateral work ie dumbell snatch and cleans. These are probably easire and safer to do and will give you the same benefits or more. In addition you can do box jumps or squat jumps.

I would also take a look at using bands. Jump stretch makes a platform you can attach their bands to and do squats, deadlits etc. This would be perfect for practicing jump squats with a barbell on your back or just wrapping the bands around your shoulders and doing jump squats that way.

The other consideration is HOW CAN YOU DEVELOP the explosiveness through your actual training of the throw.

I break down the javelin throw into 3 phases; the run up, the step or skip phase, and the throw and release.

You can develop your explosive in the run up by attaching a jump stretch band around your waist and securing it to a wall and practising your takeoff. You can loop 2 bandS in succession to give you a longer distance by which to run.

The step or skip phase could be done by attaching a light band around your ankles and practicing your step/skip or by attaching an ankle strap in the weightroom and working the leg explosively from front/back side/side.

The throw phase could be developed by cutting a small band and if possible securing it to one end of the javelin and the other end to a secured rope that is measured specifically for your distance to throw.

The increasing resistance of the band as you work through your throw will also develop explosiveness in your shoulder. (I just don’t know if a rig can be set up that would ensure complete safety and that band will bring the javelin back).

Maybe you could work the thowing movement with a band in the gym by making a handle that is identical to the handle on a javeling and working through the throwing motion that way.

I know jump stretch has developed a set up where they can develop explosiveness in a baseball batters swing by a similiar process.

These could work as long as they don’t mess up your technique.

You do have many options on how to train to enhance and maximize your throw.

The most important tool is to ask the strongest questions: How can I ______??

Hope this helps

12

Take a look at this article:

http://www.intrex.net/klubkeihas/articles/artice1/article1.htm

Also from an early copy of Dan John’s get up magazine - East German Javelin throwers routine is:

Overhead Squats
Push Press
Snatch Grip High Pull
Power Curl

13

[quote]mikger wrote:
Take a look at this article:

http://www.intrex.net/klubkeihas/articles/artice1/article1.htm

Also from an early copy of Dan John’s get up magazine - East German Javelin throwers routine is:

Overhead Squats
Push Press
Snatch Grip High Pull
Power Curl
[/quote]

I do all of those.
I absolutely hate overhead squats. Especially when doing them with kettlebells

14

[quote]Carl Darby wrote:
I’m a little confused over which lifts we are talking about here. There are
power snatches/cleans where the bar starts on the floor and you catch the bar with your thighs above parallel (other people have different definitions of how low you can go for it to still qualify as a power lift.) There are the full versions where you go into a full squat during the recovery, Then there are hang versions of both where you start with the bar off the ground, anywhere from just below the knees to the top of where the second pull would normally get you. A lot of throwers swear by close grip power snatches from the floor, but I think every variation has its benefits.

Needing to drop a power snatch of either variety behind you is very rare. In any event, adequate shoulder flexibility and just a little practice losing snatches behind you will remove almost all fear of shoulder injury from doing so.

If you can comfortably do shoulder dislocates with your normal snatch grip, flexibility is not the issue. If not, start working on it. You are a javelin thrower after all. If or when your shoulder flexibility is up to par, just grab an empty bar, or if you have some of those bumper plate sized 5 pounders, load up one of those on each side. Squat to the bottom with the bar overhead in a snatch grip, and just like doing the shoulder dislocates, let the bar fall behind you. Let go of it before it hits the ground. With an emtpy bar, it might smack you in the butt if you don’t let go. (I am most definitly NOT speaking from experience here. No one has ever seen me do that, I swear.) Its easy and fun, but might get you some funny looks from the other lifters.[/quote]

Ok, thanks for clarifying on what is meant by “power” snatches. A&M throwers do full snatches, not power. And I have never heard of these “shoulder dislocates” Ive never done those before.

15

[quote]mikger wrote:
Let me dump my 2 cents worth.

  1. the person you want to talk to about this is Coach Dan John. P.M. him on this message board.

  2. The reason why the olympic lifts are valuable is that they are the single best exercise to teach explosiveness in the hips. Any good athlete in any sport has developed very good explosiveness and power through the hips, and being a javelin thrower is no different.

The other advantage of the olympic lifts is that they require whole body coordination and control. When you flub it, you know.

The question is HOW CAN YOU TRAIN for your sport to develop the explosiveness through the hips without overtraining (the key is always moderation)

You can do a barbell snatch and clean but what about unilateral work ie dumbell snatch and cleans. These are probably easire and safer to do and will give you the same benefits or more. In addition you can do box jumps or squat jumps.

I would also take a look at using bands. Jump stretch makes a platform you can attach their bands to and do squats, deadlits etc. This would be perfect for practicing jump squats with a barbell on your back or just wrapping the bands around your shoulders and doing jump squats that way.

The other consideration is HOW CAN YOU DEVELOP the explosiveness through your actual training of the throw.

I break down the javelin throw into 3 phases; the run up, the step or skip phase, and the throw and release.

You can develop your explosive in the run up by attaching a jump stretch band around your waist and securing it to a wall and practising your takeoff. You can loop 2 bandS in succession to give you a longer distance by which to run.

The step or skip phase could be done by attaching a light band around your ankles and practicing your step/skip or by attaching an ankle strap in the weightroom and working the leg explosively from front/back side/side.

The throw phase could be developed by cutting a small band and if possible securing it to one end of the javelin and the other end to a secured rope that is measured specifically for your distance to throw.

The increasing resistance of the band as you work through your throw will also develop explosiveness in your shoulder. (I just don’t know if a rig can be set up that would ensure complete safety and that band will bring the javelin back).

Maybe you could work the thowing movement with a band in the gym by making a handle that is identical to the handle on a javeling and working through the throwing motion that way.

I know jump stretch has developed a set up where they can develop explosiveness in a baseball batters swing by a similiar process.

These could work as long as they don’t mess up your technique.

You do have many options on how to train to enhance and maximize your throw.

The most important tool is to ask the strongest questions: How can I ______??

Hope this helps[/quote]

Yes it does and thank you!
Im pretty bad in doing things in moderation but I try.
Oh, my coach makes me do single arm dummbell snatches with legs splitting and also for hip explosiveness I use bands but in the way where I wrap bands around my feet and get a kettlebell and swing it between my legs, its really hard with bands because it Makes you have to explode and we do other things

Those ideas pertaining to the three parts of the throw is very useful, where do you get these bands from-You say it was a company called Jump Stretch, am I right?

16

[quote]julia87 wrote:
mikger wrote:
Let me dump my 2 cents worth.

  1. the person you want to talk to about this is Coach Dan John. P.M. him on this message board.

  2. The reason why the olympic lifts are valuable is that they are the single best exercise to teach explosiveness in the hips. Any good athlete in any sport has developed very good explosiveness and power through the hips, and being a javelin thrower is no different.

The other advantage of the olympic lifts is that they require whole body coordination and control. When you flub it, you know.

The question is HOW CAN YOU TRAIN for your sport to develop the explosiveness through the hips without overtraining (the key is always moderation)

You can do a barbell snatch and clean but what about unilateral work ie dumbell snatch and cleans. These are probably easire and safer to do and will give you the same benefits or more. In addition you can do box jumps or squat jumps.

I would also take a look at using bands. Jump stretch makes a platform you can attach their bands to and do squats, deadlits etc. This would be perfect for practicing jump squats with a barbell on your back or just wrapping the bands around your shoulders and doing jump squats that way.

The other consideration is HOW CAN YOU DEVELOP the explosiveness through your actual training of the throw.

I break down the javelin throw into 3 phases; the run up, the step or skip phase, and the throw and release.

You can develop your explosive in the run up by attaching a jump stretch band around your waist and securing it to a wall and practising your takeoff. You can loop 2 bandS in succession to give you a longer distance by which to run.

The step or skip phase could be done by attaching a light band around your ankles and practicing your step/skip or by attaching an ankle strap in the weightroom and working the leg explosively from front/back side/side.

The throw phase could be developed by cutting a small band and if possible securing it to one end of the javelin and the other end to a secured rope that is measured specifically for your distance to throw.

The increasing resistance of the band as you work through your throw will also develop explosiveness in your shoulder. (I just don’t know if a rig can be set up that would ensure complete safety and that band will bring the javelin back).

Maybe you could work the thowing movement with a band in the gym by making a handle that is identical to the handle on a javeling and working through the throwing motion that way.

I know jump stretch has developed a set up where they can develop explosiveness in a baseball batters swing by a similiar process.

These could work as long as they don’t mess up your technique.

You do have many options on how to train to enhance and maximize your throw.

The most important tool is to ask the strongest questions: How can I ______??

Hope this helps

Yes it does and thank you!
Im pretty bad in doing things in moderation but I try.
Oh, my coach makes me do single arm dummbell snatches with legs splitting and also for hip explosiveness I use bands but in the way where I wrap bands around my feet and get a kettlebell and swing it between my legs, its really hard with bands because it Makes you have to explode and we do other things

Those ideas pertaining to the three parts of the throw is very useful, where do you get these bands from-You say it was a company called Jump Stretch, am I right?[/quote]

There are 2 manufacturers of bands: jump stretch bands or iron woody bands.

They are pretty much the same except jump stretch bands are color coded.

The costs for each are similiar.

I use jump stretch bands.

Cheers!

17

Thanks for the heads up.

Send me a daytime number and I will call you. The program IS right…at the international level, javies snatch and squat (and bound, sprint, throw, pop around, enjoy life…)

I will be glad to help.

18

I am a huge believer in the snatch as one of top three greatest exercises for getting stronger. That said – please write to Coach Dan John here at T-Nation or at his web site at danjohn.org.

He knows about the olympic lifts and he’s a thrower. Additioanlly, his web page has the “Get Up” news letter which it seems to have a lot of articles for throwers. Good luck, jamej

19

For the shoulder dislocates, just grab a long wooden dowel (broomstick will do), hold it in a snatch grip, then keeping your elbows locked, pivot your arms behind you. Take the stick down until it hits your back, then back up again. Work on narrowing the grip.

Congradualtions on getting Dan John involved. I sure he will be a great help.

And finally, thanks, but no I did not hit any dogs with the hammer this time out.

20

[quote]Carl Darby wrote:
For the shoulder dislocates, just grab a long wooden dowel (broomstick will do), hold it in a snatch grip, then keeping your elbows locked, pivot your arms behind you. Take the stick down until it hits your back, then back up again. Work on narrowing the grip.

Congradualtions on getting Dan John involved. I sure he will be a great help.

And finally, thanks, but no I did not hit any dogs with the hammer this time out.[/quote]

Ohhh! Ive always done those but never knew what they were called

:slight_smile: Glad to hear it!