Just wanting opinions on which you think is better for football?
[quote]ach36 wrote:
Just wanting opinions on which you think is better for football?[/quote]
First some definitions:
clean - barbell is lifted from the ground, barbell is caught in the full front squat, elbows up, bar should be racked on shoulders.
power clean - barbell is lifted from the ground, barbell is caught in the partial front squat or “power position,” elbows up, bar should be racked on shoulders.
hang clean - barbell is lifted from the hang which can mean various positions, below the knee, above the knee and mid-thigh, barbell is caught in the full front squat, elbows up, bar should be racked on shoulders.
hang power clean - barbell is lifted from the hand…etc, barbell is caught in the power position, elbows up, bar should be racked on shoulders.
Different coaches will say different things on which is better and why, you have to sort through that and figure out what is best for you.
Mike Boyle likes his athletes to do above the knee hang cleans because it’s safer.
I can’t recall exactly but some coaches don’t like cleans at all because of the stress on the elbows/wrists.
Some coaches only like the power versions.
edited: I messed up, and after a little bit of research I what I said was wrong and misleading, sorry, thanks to the poster below. Changed the post to be more accurate.
[quote]Backlash79 wrote:
ach36 wrote:
Just wanting opinions on which you think is better for football?
First some definitions:
power clean - barbell is lifted from the ground, barbell is caught in the partial front squat or “power position,” upper arm is perpendicular to the ground.
hang power clean - barbell is lifted from the hand…etc, barbell is caught in the power position, upper arm is perpendicular to the ground.[/quote]
The racking position in a full or power clean is the same - on the shoulders with elbows up. Attempting to catch a weight with arms perpendicular to the ground is guaranteed to destroy your wrists, if you even manage to catch it at all.
If it’s not racked on the shoulders it’s a missed lift.
[quote]ninearms wrote:
If it’s not racked on the shoulders it’s a missed lift.
[/quote]
Or a high pull, depending on the intention 
The hang clean puts the hip, knee, and ankle at angles similar to those achieved during football. The hang clean will also put the back in a better position than the power clean, and will allow those with poor ankle, thoracic, and hip mobility to execute properly.
Note that if you can perform both exercises with no pain or compensation, then performing both exercises would be acceptable. I would also recommend looking at the snatch, assuming you have no shoulder problems, as this exercise challenges the rate at which you need to produce force to a greater degree.
[quote]Backlash79 wrote:
Mike Boyle likes his athletes to do above the knee hang cleans because it’s safer.
I can’t recall exactly but some coaches don’t like cleans at all because of the stress on the elbows/wrists.
Some coaches only like the power versions.
[/quote]
Thats because the coach can’t teach the full Cleans!
Hang Cleans are not safer. They are all the same.
There should be no stress on the elbows and wrists if you catch the lifts properly. The problem is down to poor mobility in the coaches athletes!
Do both. Switch it up say every 6 weeks do one and then switch to the other. Or do them on alternate sessions. There is no reason why you can’t do this.
Koing
It wasn’t my question but thanks for the descriptions guys. Helped clear some things up for me.
[quote]Koing wrote:
Backlash79 wrote:
Mike Boyle likes his athletes to do above the knee hang cleans because it’s safer.
I can’t recall exactly but some coaches don’t like cleans at all because of the stress on the elbows/wrists.
Some coaches only like the power versions.
Thats because the coach can’t teach the full Cleans!
Hang Cleans are not safer. They are all the same.
There should be no stress on the elbows and wrists if you catch the lifts properly. The problem is down to poor mobility in the coaches athletes!
Do both. Switch it up say every 6 weeks do one and then switch to the other. Or do them on alternate sessions. There is no reason why you can’t do this.
Koing[/quote]
The things I said above are not my own opinions, rather reiterating what I’ve read/heard.
Personally, I feel that the snatch should be taught before the clean, but that’s OT and not what the OP asked.
I’ve been doing both for about 15 years. When the bar’s above the knees, the motion should basically be the same. I think it’s good to switch back to a cycle of hang cleans every now and then though because it really forces you to get the maximum explosion out of the top phase of your clean by removing any momentum built up from the floor in a full clean.
I know when I switch to hang cleans after a long period of full cleans, my traps get a much needed boost. Then I go back to full cleans and I’ve usually improved some because of the focused work that hang cleans give to the post-double-knee-bend explosive phase.
[quote]Backlash79 wrote:
Koing wrote:
Backlash79 wrote:
Mike Boyle likes his athletes to do above the knee hang cleans because it’s safer.
I can’t recall exactly but some coaches don’t like cleans at all because of the stress on the elbows/wrists.
Some coaches only like the power versions.
Thats because the coach can’t teach the full Cleans!
Hang Cleans are not safer. They are all the same.
There should be no stress on the elbows and wrists if you catch the lifts properly. The problem is down to poor mobility in the coaches athletes!
Do both. Switch it up say every 6 weeks do one and then switch to the other. Or do them on alternate sessions. There is no reason why you can’t do this.
Koing
The things I said above are not my own opinions, rather reiterating what I’ve read/heard.
Personally, I feel that the snatch should be taught before the clean, but that’s OT and not what the OP asked.
[/quote]
Aight.
I think they should be taught together. Just alternate the sessions. They compliment each other very well imo.
From the floor to the finish of the 2nd pull should be exactly the same.
Koing
[quote]beans wrote:
I’ve been doing both for about 15 years. When the bar’s above the knees, the motion should basically be the same. I think it’s good to switch back to a cycle of hang cleans every now and then though because it really forces you to get the maximum explosion out of the top phase of your clean by removing any momentum built up from the floor in a full clean.
I know when I switch to hang cleans after a long period of full cleans, my traps get a much needed boost. Then I go back to full cleans and I’ve usually improved some because of the focused work that hang cleans give to the post-double-knee-bend explosive phase.[/quote]
Yes training should be cycled so you hit and improve everything 
Koing
[quote]Koing wrote:
Aight.
I think they should be taught together. Just alternate the sessions. They compliment each other very well imo.
From the floor to the finish of the 2nd pull should be exactly the same.
Koing[/quote]
Mike Boyles take on cleans, take a look at point number 7:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1276773
He has interesting points, whether you might agree with him or not is a different matter all together.
At first I thought his stuff was kind of off the wall but then I tried to think of it from his perspective of having to coach tons of athletes from different sports and all of them ranging in ability/size/experience and keep them relatively injury free while doing it.
[quote]Backlash79 wrote:
Koing wrote:
Aight.
I think they should be taught together. Just alternate the sessions. They compliment each other very well imo.
From the floor to the finish of the 2nd pull should be exactly the same.
Koing
Mike Boyles take on cleans, take a look at point number 7:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1276773
He has interesting points, whether you might agree with him or not is a different matter all together.
At first I thought his stuff was kind of off the wall but then I tried to think of it from his perspective of having to coach tons of athletes from different sports and all of them ranging in ability/size/experience and keep them relatively injury free while doing it.
[/quote]
It’s because their hamstrings are TOO TIGHT from their lack of mobility. As for safer that is debateable. Any guy been around any ATHLETE knows athletes get injured all the time. The pounding body, ankle, knees and hips takes is through the roof. About 3x+ through the floor when running, coupled with running spikes makes the impacts that much harder.
I only read that. I didn’t read the other points.
I’d teach using the reverse chain method. They all get good eventually after they over come their lack of moblity.
People should really take time to learn lifts properly imo. It doesn’t take THAT LONG to get up to a reasonable level.
Koing
[quote]Koing wrote:
Backlash79 wrote:
Koing wrote:
Aight.
I think they should be taught together. Just alternate the sessions. They compliment each other very well imo.
From the floor to the finish of the 2nd pull should be exactly the same.
Koing
[/quote]
Yo, Koing, I joined killed my LCL while front squatting, oly style. My form was bad and I have arthithis in my right knee. Do you suggest I continue Oly lifting (I’m not a competitive lifter)? I mean, I like to be athletic, but I have weight issues.
Do you think someone who has injured his/her knee should use Oly lifting still? I don’t have a coach. And if you could please direct me to a good website or program, the person like me who wants to learn Oly lifting (non-competitive), just for overall fitness. What should be a beginner’s program?
[quote]yus310 wrote:
Yo, Koing, I joined killed my LCL while front squatting, oly style. My form was bad and I have arthithis in my right knee.
[/quote]
That must have been some horrible form! Did you have a traumatic event, or was it over time?
[quote]Krollmonster wrote:
yus310 wrote:
Yo, Koing, I joined killed my LCL while front squatting, oly style. My form was bad and I have arthithis in my right knee.
That must have been some horrible form! Did you have a traumatic event, or was it over time?[/quote]
Really Bad Form. I went to fast down and heard a pop. It sucks. Do you think Oly lifting (non-competitive) will be good for my knees? I really like lifting weights (not bodybuilding). I use the power and explosiveness to flip and handspring in gymnastics. Do you think it is good to continue? Any suggestions for a good beginner program. I don’t have a coach at all.
[quote]yus310 wrote:
Yo, Koing, I joined killed my LCL while front squatting, oly style. My form was bad and I have arthithis in my right knee. Do you suggest I continue Oly lifting (I’m not a competitive lifter)? I mean, I like to be athletic, but I have weight issues.
Do you think someone who has injured his/her knee should use Oly lifting still? I don’t have a coach. And if you could please direct me to a good website or program, the person like me who wants to learn Oly lifting (non-competitive), just for overall fitness. What should be a beginner’s program?
[/quote]
How is your injury now?
Can you squat (just with the bar) to a bit off rock bottom? How does that feel? When I mean a bit off rock bottom I don’t mean 4inches above parallel…
Squat down SLOW then gun it up. Don’t bounce at the bottom.
Do LIGHT WEIGHTS FOR A WHILE. Say increase every 3 weeks by 5Kg. Do this for say 3-4months. Squating Oly style with good form will help your knee injuries unless they really are server injury.
I use to do Gymnastics (hobbist) for a few hundred hrs and still do on occasion so I know more about the stresses the body goes through! Does it hurt when you tumble on the floor? What about the tumble run (sprung)?
You got to take an injury seriously.
Koing
[quote]Koing wrote:
yus310 wrote:
Yo, Koing, I joined killed my LCL while front squatting, oly style. My form was bad and I have arthithis in my right knee. Do you suggest I continue Oly lifting (I’m not a competitive lifter)? I mean, I like to be athletic, but I have weight issues.
Do you think someone who has injured his/her knee should use Oly lifting still? I don’t have a coach. And if you could please direct me to a good website or program, the person like me who wants to learn Oly lifting (non-competitive), just for overall fitness. What should be a beginner’s program?
How is your injury now?
Can you squat (just with the bar) to a bit off rock bottom? How does that feel? When I mean a bit off rock bottom I don’t mean 4inches above parallel…
Squat down SLOW then gun it up. Don’t bounce at the bottom.
Do LIGHT WEIGHTS FOR A WHILE. Say increase every 3 weeks by 5Kg. Do this for say 3-4months. Squating Oly style with good form will help your knee injuries unless they really are server injury.
I use to do Gymnastics (hobbist) for a few hundred hrs and still do on occasion so I know more about the stresses the body goes through! Does it hurt when you tumble on the floor? What about the tumble run (sprung)?
You got to take an injury seriously.
Koing[/quote]
Koing… it is getting better. I think the issue was bad form, I went down to fast. I’m in ok shape (not as good as when I was a wrestler), so I winded after some cleans. But I understand, go slow down.
Right now, I’m going to cut down my fat & weight, to be a little lighter, so my joints & ligaments don’t have so much stress applied to them when I bound, jump, or punch. But thanks.
Yeah, do you have any good beginner’s tips for people who want to use Oly lifting as just a tool for gaining power, explosiveness, speed, and conditioning? Any tips? And any beginner’s program could you suggest? Thanks.
[quote]yus310 wrote:
Koing… it is getting better. I think the issue was bad form, I went down to fast. I’m in ok shape (not as good as when I was a wrestler), so I winded after some cleans. But I understand, go slow down.
Right now, I’m going to cut down my fat & weight, to be a little lighter, so my joints & ligaments don’t have so much stress applied to them when I bound, jump, or punch. But thanks.
Yeah, do you have any good beginner’s tips for people who want to use Oly lifting as just a tool for gaining power, explosiveness, speed, and conditioning? Any tips? And any beginner’s program could you suggest? Thanks.
[/quote]
You got to go slow in the squat. The pros can do it fast BUT they are conditioned to doing it and have 1000’s of hrs of training experience.
Some fat is good for your joints and ligaments. It helps protect them. Just make sure you don’t have too much of a gut. In general having too much of a gut is no good.
Can you get to a club 1-2x a week? This would be the best method imo.
My mate does OLifts for his Judo. Learn using the “reverse chain method”. Take your time to learn the technique and the positions properly. Once you have done it you can start to add weight. The first few months are very important. Once you have some steady technique you can start to load on the weights.
You don’t need a programme.
A (Snatch) and B (Clean and Jerk) sessions. Alternate these
A/B Technique bar work
Pulls to mid thigh (If you used Snatch technique work, do Clean pulls to mid thigh, and vice versa)
Bent forward rows
Do this for 6-8 weeks. Then ask another question and I could give you something else.
Koing
Power Clean variations are easier to learn.
When you start training to come to a full squat in the blink of an eye you start to train for weightlifting as a sport and not just a means to get faster.