Shoulder Problems From Snatch

Training Powerlifting
21

[quote]julia87 wrote:
Seattle_Lifter wrote:

Ive already oriented my workouts to what feels right, what Im not prone to becoming injured with even when overtraining/having a bad day/sore as hell/muscles arent responding as well as they should.
Now Im going to have to adapt to a program tailored to the mass majority of javelin and discus throwers and not my tailored to my body
(which is typical, usually girls coming into college these days havent had the amount of training I have, I dont know about the guys and what they do in these situations-or if they even have them)

I need information to support at least my ways of lifting being better for me, which is proving to be impossible save Mike Boyle’s article about injuries.
(which was very well written)

If Anyone can help…[/quote]

Once again I’m not trying to belittle you or anything, but if you are at the colliegent level you might want to do the workouts your coach gives to you…like I mentioned I could send you an example from my workouts (a top d-1 program, best coaches) as well as some other elite throwers.

22

[quote]Aharma1 wrote:
julia87 wrote:
Seattle_Lifter wrote:

Ive already oriented my workouts to what feels right, what Im not prone to becoming injured with even when overtraining/having a bad day/sore as hell/muscles arent responding as well as they should.
Now Im going to have to adapt to a program tailored to the mass majority of javelin and discus throwers and not my tailored to my body
(which is typical, usually girls coming into college these days havent had the amount of training I have, I dont know about the guys and what they do in these situations-or if they even have them)

I need information to support at least my ways of lifting being better for me, which is proving to be impossible save Mike Boyle’s article about injuries.
(which was very well written)

If Anyone can help…

Once again I’m not trying to belittle you or anything, but if you are at the colliegent level you might want to do the workouts your coach gives to you…like I mentioned I could send you an example from my workouts (a top d-1 program, best coaches) as well as some other elite throwers.
[/quote]

Belittle me? When did you? I dont remember ever even speaking to you. I argue alot in this place and usually take everything personally though Im laidback and plus I have a terrible memory so thats probably why I have no clue of what you are talking about.

Uh, if you havent read this full thread my coach has not given me any workouts yet-I go to A&M this spring, January to be more specific. My coach at A&M told me to keep doing all the training I have been doing based on the progress I have shown him through my workouts and lifts.

I have gotten up to throwing 130 feet on average in discus after 3 months of training once a week with a coach
(last two weeks not including this week I have had practice twice during the week)
and that is besides my javelin training which has slowed because I cannot find a coach in this area and am practicing with a friend that graduated from A&M and who threw the javelin that the coach at A&M keeps making sure I am practicing with…I think its because of my ties to SMU…and the training.

I have recieved workouts and advice from A&M, OU, and SMU, my current discus coach Mark Simmons who in discus who was at a world level but hurt his back severely who is best friends with Lebore the (…slovakian…?) hammer thrower, John Turek who took me in and introduced me to track and then field-the javelin- in the first place, so I think Im probably pretty well off with knowing what everyone is doing in their programs and what people should expect that Im doing in mine, I guess I am just shaping my program to fit what I need and feel I need and so on so forth.
But thank you for the offer I appreciate it!

23

Maybe someone has mentioned this, but these exercises should help:
-oh squats
-drop snatch (this is a bitch, but very very helpful exercise with the snatch)
-and like someone else wrote: practice missing with light weights

These all helped me immensely when i was oly lifting (i was afraid to jump under the weight when it got heavy).

I hope this was helpful

24

[quote]Hrastnik wrote:
Maybe someone has mentioned this, but these exercises should help:
-oh squats
-drop snatch (this is a bitch, but very very helpful exercise with the snatch)
-and like someone else wrote: practice missing with light weights

These all helped me immensely when i was oly lifting (i was afraid to jump under the weight when it got heavy).

I hope this was helpful[/quote]

I need to learn more lingo I guess because I usually know the lifts that everyone talks about here but I never know what they are called. What is this “drop snatch” your talking about?

Yeah, on the powercleans I dont know if its me mentally or what but I can do a hang clean-front squat with a lot of weight and then I try powercleaning it and I will pull the wieght up hard with my traps and wont be able to drop under it for some reason. I think its because my coach told me not to drop so low when I started training

(I dont know if this is an olympic style powerclean, but I was taught before to basically squat half way down after pulling the weight with my traps in the end of my powerclean)

So I did more wieght last week because I got frustrated (i dont even think I was pulling 120 on the clean)
and told my coach I was going to add the front squat component to it, and I ended up going up in wiehgt after that even when I was doing a totally half assed front squat at best. I dont know but I cant stay near to being stiff legged when doing the clean from the floor and I dont feel I should be anyways.

Sorry to blabble and thanks for your input

25

-the reason to do full cleans is because you HAVE TO. meaning you cannot lift the weight high enough to rack it because it’s too damn heavy.

-you will be probably be SLOWER when it’s this heavy.

-powercleans are valuable to athletes because of the emphasis on speed. the focus is to become stronger by adding SPEED to the speed/strength equation.

-if you are approaching max effort you are probably not capable of focusing on speed unless you are uber-skilled in the lift and you are flirting with injury by maxing lifts which you have not mastered.

-you are a thrower not an o-lifter. save your max efforts for throwing that’s my advice to you. but hey i’m no coach, just some dumb-ass cat on the internet.

drop snatch:

26

[quote]swivel wrote:
-the reason to do full cleans is because you HAVE TO. meaning you cannot lift the weight high enough to rack it because it’s too damn heavy.

-you will be probably be SLOWER when it’s this heavy.

-powercleans are valuable to athletes because of the emphasis on speed. the "focus is to become stronger by adding SPEED to the speed/strength equation.

-if you are approaching max effort you are probably not capable of focusing on speed unless you are uber-skilled in the lift and you are flirting with injury by maxing lifts which you have not mastered.

-you are a thrower not an o-lifter. save your max efforts for throwing that’s my advice to you. but hey i’m no coach, just some dumb-ass cat on the internet.

drop snatch:

[/quote]

“you are a thrower not an o-lifter. save your max efforts for throwing that’s my advice to you.”
Oh dont worry I learned that after being yelled at a few times

“the reason to do full cleans is because you HAVE TO. meaning you cannot lift the weight high enough to rack it because it’s too damn heavy.”

Can you rephrase that for me, I mean, if you care enough, because I cant see why I have to do full cleans-Im being forced to right now and wont in college becasue they say it puts too much pressure on the wrists.
"what do you mean by “rack it”? Are you talking about the end of the lift when it is balanced near/on your chest? Or are you just saying “rack it” as in rack it rack it, like, racking it.

About powercleans being about speed-quickness-fast-twitch, I agree. But they also hit nearly every muscle in your body so its not solely about speed.
But if I do them in college I will be going against my coach’s wishes and I want him to see that powercleans, morseo hang cleans, are good and less…traumatic on the joints as the snatch is.

“if you are approaching max effort you are probably not capable of focusing on speed unless…”

You see this is the exact problem Im having with my trainer, he wont allow me to go full so it doesnt even matter I guess.

27

[quote]julia87 wrote:

Can you rephrase that for me, I mean, if you care enough, because I cant see why I have to do full cleans-Im being forced to right now and wont in college becasue they say it puts too much pressure on the wrists.

[/quote]

When doing the clean you should be pulling it up to around the same height all the time. There are coaches that say treat a lgiht lift the same as you would a heavy lift and other that disagree. for example: You pull 225# about 3 feet off the ground, and then you pull yourself under the bar into the squat aka the catch position. Because the weight is so heavy you can only pull the bar up so high.

Yes racking is when the bar is on you shoulders/clavicle with your fingertips on the bar and your upper arms should be parallel to the ground. meaning your elbows should not be pointing down to the ground.

How do you quantify that a powerclean is “less traumatic” than a clean? By what are you judging trauma? Powercleans you are usally unable to achieve a full rack and basically crashing the bar into your self. Why do you say that hang cleans are less traumatic also?

Hang exercises tend to work the 2nd pull a lot more while the full olift will work the 1st and 2nd pull.

28

[quote]julia87 wrote:
/QuickDrop.html

“the reason to do full cleans is because you HAVE TO. meaning you cannot lift the weight high enough to rack it because it’s too damn heavy.”

Can you rephrase that for me, I mean, if you care enough, because I cant see why I have to do full cleans-Im being forced to right now and wont in college becasue they say it puts too much pressure on the wrists.
"what do you mean by “rack it”? Are you talking about the end of the lift when it is balanced near/on your chest? Or are you just saying “rack it” as in rack it rack it, like, racking it.[/quote]

by “full clean” i mean squat-clean, catch w/ full squat. the weight is so heavy you cannot power clean.[quote]

About powercleans being about speed-quickness-fast-twitch, I agree. But they also hit nearly every muscle in your body so its not solely about speed.
But if I do them in college I will be going against my coach’s wishes and I want him to see that powercleans, morseo hang cleans, are good and less…traumatic on the joints as the snatch is.[/quote]

i don’t know anything about throwing so i have nothing to say. i can guess though and say that you doing a clean/snatch above 60-65% ish of you max will be too slow of a movement and end up inhibiting your throwing speed.

if however this concern is simply your wrists and joints you can still get great power benefits from doing the clean without the rack. in other words do the pull and just drop it. wrap your wrists.[quote]

“if you are approaching max effort you are probably not capable of focusing on speed unless…”

You see this is the exact problem Im having with my trainer, he wont allow me to go full so it doesnt even matter I guess.
[/quote]

sounds like he doesn’t want you to get hurt. i also think going heavy on cleans will be slowing you down unless you spend ALOT of time working on it and slowly increasing your weights without sacrificing form or speed.

just because you CAN lift heavier doesn’t mean you should. if going heavier means losing form and speed it’s not worth it and isn’t helping you produce more power(throw).

29

No offense meant to anybody on here who has posted thus far…she has signed with a Big XII throws program that produces quality throwers. They have their own throws coach and strength coach, and run their own program. Either she will get with the program or she won’t. Her own trepidation about Olifting (snatches in particular) and her aversion to backsquat mean very little. Every other thrower in the program has bought in and so will she. Or not. She is about to be a Div I athlete. She will have to put her own knowledge (which at this point pales in comparison to her coaches) and assumptions aside and buy in. Everyone who is offering advice, no matter how well intended is wasting their and her time. They will not change thier program for her (nor should they). If everything she is doing is working for her then she should turn pro now and save everyone the trouble.

:stepping off of soapbox:

30

[quote]deadgame wrote:
No offense meant to anybody on here who has posted thus far…she has signed with a Big XII throws program that produces quality throwers. They have their own throws coach and strength coach, and run their own program. Either she will get with the program or she won’t. Her own trepidation about Olifting (snatches in particular) and her aversion to backsquat mean very little. Every other thrower in the program has bought in and so will she. Or not. She is about to be a Div I athlete. She will have to put her own knowledge (which at this point pales in comparison to her coaches) and assumptions aside and buy in. Everyone who is offering advice, no matter how well intended is wasting their and her time. They will not change thier program for her (nor should they). If everything she is doing is working for her then she should turn pro now and save everyone the trouble.

:stepping off of soapbox:[/quote]

Actually, Im one of those rare ones where I got offers based on my experience in the weightroom and athletic background.
I have been throwing for months, not even a year.
Im not saying anything more about that post (i agree with most of it), and thank you for your input deadgame

31

A useful article with supporting data about snatch/C&J effect on throwing sports:

http://www.coacheseducation.com/strengthtraining/bill-pandleton-dec-00.htm

32

[quote]deadgame wrote:
No offense meant to anybody on here who has posted thus far…she has signed with a Big XII throws program that produces quality throwers. They have their own throws coach and strength coach, and run their own program. Either she will get with the program or she won’t. Her own trepidation about Olifting (snatches in particular) and her aversion to backsquat mean very little. Every other thrower in the program has bought in and so will she. Or not. She is about to be a Div I athlete. She will have to put her own knowledge (which at this point pales in comparison to her coaches) and assumptions aside and buy in. Everyone who is offering advice, no matter how well intended is wasting their and her time. They will not change thier program for her (nor should they). If everything she is doing is working for her then she should turn pro now and save everyone the trouble.

:stepping off of soapbox:[/quote]

i understand your point but it’s not a waste of time. these are the internets. i figured out long ago that no matter how many times you punch the keys money does not come pouring out the side. ever. sorry :frowning:

33

[quote]Kliplemet wrote:
If i understand what you’re saying correctly, here is what i assume that went wrong.

This error “her arms went backwards-flung behind her head along with all the wieght” has nothing to do with “doing so much wieght”. And if your friend had any common sense/lifting knowledge and shoulder flexibility, instead of having “killed her shoulder” her arms would just have rotated with the barbell and she would have lost the weight backwards and jumped forwards.

This error was caused by incorrect pulling technique. She has put her back too soon in action and thus accelerated the barbell in too big of an arch, when the weight reached it highest point it had gained so much backwards horizontal momentum your friend couldn’t fixate the weight. Instead of just letting her arms rotate and jump forwards, what is the normal procedure when commiting this error, she tried to stop the barbell and got herself injured.[/quote]

NOTICE: Do not take unsolicited advice from a 14 year old “oly lifter”. Who is “5’10’ 300lbs and ripped”.

When in doubt ask a competent trainer or coach at your local gym.

34

[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
NOTICE: Do not take unsolicited advice from a 14 year old “oly lifter”. Who is “5’10’ 300lbs and ripped”.

When in doubt ask a competent trainer or coach at your local gym.[/quote]

the existence of this thread is a “solicitation for advice”, and this is good advice. especially that little jewel about what happens when you trigger your back too soon. your inability to separate what kliplemet posts in the off-topic forums from this valuable piece of troubleshooting insight says you don’t know shit from shinola.

35

[quote]swivel wrote:
the existence of this thread is a “solicitation for advice”, and this is good advice.[/quote]

Klipemet is far too young (14year old) to know anything about training.

Which is why it would be wiser to go to an older and more experienced strength coach or trainer.

Or maybe we should ALL be taking advice from 1 year old “oly lifters” who are “300lbs and ripped”. (and I have pics to prove just how “ripped” his 160lb skinny-fat ass is.)

Maybe you could explain to me the logic in that? Taking advice from teenagers who don’t know jack shit and are only paraphrasing advice given by the more competent trainers.

[quote]
you don’t know shit from shinola.[/quote]

They look the same to me. I don’t know why you’re bitching.

In conclusion: Do not listen to any advice Klippy posts. When in doubt consult a competent coach or trainer iny our area.

Either that or PM one of the Authors on this site for some advice. Like Poliquin, Waterbury & the Like.

I’ll take a veteran’s advice over a 14 year old skinny-fat kid’s any day of the week.

Swivel: Please respond to this post whether you think this makes good sense.

36

[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
Swivel: Please respond to this post whether you think this makes good sense.[/quote]

no, prejudice does not make good sense.
the title of this thread is “shoulder problems from snatch” but you’re still stuck in kooky kamagong land. we know that kliplemet can cj and snatch well above his bodyweight.

we also know that Charles Staley said about kliplemet “your technique looks great”. if you think his knowledge here is flawed you should demonstrate why and we can all learn something.

37

[quote]swivel wrote:
we also know that Charles Staley said about kliplemet “your technique looks great”.[/quote]

Cool. So why not ask World Renowned Strength coach Staley instead of Klipemet?

Since he visits the site frequently, posts sometimes, and has trained hundreds of athletes.

vs.

Klipemet who likes to post pics of tentacle rape and BS stories about how he’s the real tru killa down in Indonesia. I wonder how much experience in the coaching field a 14year old lifter has.

I’ll take Staley’s advice over Klippy’s every single time. And I think Julia (the OP) should also.

38

“Prejudice is a negative or hostile attitude toward a person or group formed without just or sufficient knowledge and based on negative stereotypes.”
-Courtesy of Google.

I thought you might want to check a dictionary reference before using the word again.

39

[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
“Prejudice is a negative or hostile attitude toward a person or group formed without just or sufficient knowledge and based on negative stereotypes.”
-Courtesy of Google.

I thought you might want to check a dictionary reference before using the word again.[/quote]

maybe you should re-think how the word applies to your own opinions. you’ve discounted solid knowledge because you don’t like kliplemet. that’s the “negative or hostile attitude” part you exemplify.

and you’ve assumed, because kliplemet posts outrageous material in the off-topic threads, that his lifting knowledge isn’t sound. that’s the “without just or sufficient knowledge based on negative stereotypes” part you exemplify.

you’re ignoring good advice because of the package it came in. you’re judging a book by the cover. you’re shooting the messenger and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

the fact remains the knowledge kliplemet presented above is sound. i could give a shit if that knowledge comes from kliplemet or Staley or gayle freakin hatch. it’s the same thing. use your brain man. you’re throwing out good advice because you don’t like the font.

i’ve learned something from kliplemet’s posts above and i applied what i learned to my snatch just this morning. that’s got real value.

what have i learned from you ? that kliplemet posts some goofy shit in the get a life section ? i already knew that.
like i said before, if you think kliplemet’s knowledge is flawed tell me why. otherwise you’re just taking a piss.