Right Elbow Buckles in on DB Press?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Injuries and Rehab
1

Just to give a little background, I’m 19, 140 pounds, Bench 185 about 2-3 times, Squat-225, deadlift-315, DB Shoulder Press 50 lb x 12 reps or so…

Whenever I start going up to the 80 pound dumbbell range on flat dumbbell presses, i would get this problem. I would start the set: kicking back dumbbells at the same time, and then pushing up. Problem is, my left arm will push the DB up, while my right one has this feeling of weakness(not necessarily shooting pain), and will start buckling inwards so that my elbow is almost at my ribs. I then have to push the DB up in that way, with the elbow basically touching the ribs. Im right handed by the way. After getting it up initially, I can then do ~ 8 reps after that.

I would definitely say my weakest body part is shoulders, especially with a few inflamation problems with it in the past where Ive had to shut it down for a few weeks(in terms of heavy exercises like DB shoulder presses, military presses etc.). To this day, I am back doing the ordinary shoulder exercises: Barbell Upright Rows, Arnold Presses, DB shoulder presses, with “rehab” exercises on other days, stuff that strengthens my rotator cuff, common shoulder flyes, etc. Im always cautious in pushing my shoulders though on heavy exercises, worrying that Ill bust it up again.

How did this shoulder inequality come about, and how can I fix it? Is this injury related, or is it just my right shoulder is weaker than my left? Is it even a shoulder problem?

Thanks guys.

2

You are obviously a pretty small person. What sports are you competing in? Or do you just lift for aesthetics? If you are not involved in an activity that requires weight divisions, I would first recommend putting on some size. The added musculature will help with joint stability and support and will decrease the buckling that is bothering you.

Do you feel the buckling occurring in your elbow or more just a general shoulder weakness causing your elbow to collapse in towards your body during the lift? If the weakness is in your shoulder (assuming you have no major structural damage), you definitely need to work on strengthening your shoulder stabilization. You may not be recruiting the proper muscles during your lifts either. Do you feel your triceps more during pressing movements? How is your scapular mobility and stability? How about T-Spine mobility? If the scapula is not in the proper position, then the shoulder will be “off center”.

Also, you said you have had some shoulder problems in the past (inflammation) and that your shoulders are your weakest part. If this is the case, you need to re-evaluate how you are approaching your shoulder training. To start, begin reading some of Eric Cressey’s articles on here regarding shoulder health (too many to list - just use the search function). Also check out these two articles:

  1. Push-Ups, Face Pulls, and Shrugs…for Strong and Healthy Shoulders! by Bill Hartman and Mike Robertson
    Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION
  2. Everything Push-Ups by Nick Tumminello
    Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION

For a more advanced look into it all, check out Mike Reinold and Eric Cressey’s DVD “Optimal Shoulder Performance” (http://www.shoulderperformance.com/).

I am a big advocate of push ups for shoulder health. Frees up the scapula for full mobility and with more challenging variations, hits some good shoulder stability. With your complains of occassional inflammation issues, I would recommend against Upright Rows - too much impingement going on, especially if you already have a lot of inflammation going on.

Sorry for the length, but to sum things up:

  • See a physician if things continue to get worse and you feel a lot of instability
  • Put on some size if you are not in a weight class activity
  • Check Scapular Mobility/Stability
  • Check T-Spine mobility
  • Read the articles
  • Re-evaluate your shoulder training and check your technique

Best of luck!

3

[quote]LevelHeaded wrote:
You are obviously a pretty small person. What sports are you competing in? Or do you just lift for aesthetics? If you are not involved in an activity that requires weight divisions, I would first recommend putting on some size. The added musculature will help with joint stability and support and will decrease the buckling that is bothering you.

Do you feel the buckling occurring in your elbow or more just a general shoulder weakness causing your elbow to collapse in towards your body during the lift? If the weakness is in your shoulder (assuming you have no major structural damage), you definitely need to work on strengthening your shoulder stabilization. You may not be recruiting the proper muscles during your lifts either. Do you feel your triceps more during pressing movements? How is your scapular mobility and stability? How about T-Spine mobility? If the scapula is not in the proper position, then the shoulder will be “off center”.

Also, you said you have had some shoulder problems in the past (inflammation) and that your shoulders are your weakest part. If this is the case, you need to re-evaluate how you are approaching your shoulder training. To start, begin reading some of Eric Cressey’s articles on here regarding shoulder health (too many to list - just use the search function). Also check out these two articles:

  1. Push-Ups, Face Pulls, and Shrugs…for Strong and Healthy Shoulders! by Bill Hartman and Mike Robertson
    Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION
  2. Everything Push-Ups by Nick Tumminello
    Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION

For a more advanced look into it all, check out Mike Reinold and Eric Cressey’s DVD “Optimal Shoulder Performance” (http://www.shoulderperformance.com/).

I am a big advocate of push ups for shoulder health. Frees up the scapula for full mobility and with more challenging variations, hits some good shoulder stability. With your complains of occassional inflammation issues, I would recommend against Upright Rows - too much impingement going on, especially if you already have a lot of inflammation going on.

Sorry for the length, but to sum things up:

  • See a physician if things continue to get worse and you feel a lot of instability
  • Put on some size if you are not in a weight class activity
  • Check Scapular Mobility/Stability
  • Check T-Spine mobility
  • Read the articles
  • Re-evaluate your shoulder training and check your technique

Best of luck![/quote]

Thanks a lot for your response. I never got the time to respond, but I did read the articles you gave me, and I’ve been following your advice and the problem has slowly gotten better.

Although I now do not experience the buckling in of the elbow as much, I have experienced a new problem.

Everytime I do wide grip pull ups, or a lat pulldown, I hear a pretty loud click/crack in my shoulder when i pull down/up. There is a little direct discomfort, but the crack is making my mind feel like it hurts more than it is, and also, it is hindering my motion as there is now a huge click instead of being a smooth motion. To give some context, I’ve been doing relatively heavy weighted pull ups now for about 6 months now, going up to 80 pounds on a weekly basis.

Could this be the reason why? And is this the same problem, or a new problem in my shoulder? And what should I do to help cure it?

Thanks a lot

4

Where is the clicking? Deep inside the shoulder? If you could remove the skin, could you touch where the pain/clicking is or is it deeper inside?

In terms of the pull ups, it is hard to say whether there is a direct correlation between the pull ups and the clicking, but I’d say after 6 months of heavy weighted pull ups, your shoulders are probably due for a break even if they aren’t causing the clicking/pain.

5

[quote]LevelHeaded wrote:
Where is the clicking? Deep inside the shoulder? If you could remove the skin, could you touch where the pain/clicking is or is it deeper inside?

In terms of the pull ups, it is hard to say whether there is a direct correlation between the pull ups and the clicking, but I’d say after 6 months of heavy weighted pull ups, your shoulders are probably due for a break even if they aren’t causing the clicking/pain.[/quote]

It feels, like you said, right on the surface as if I could touch it. I also had no idea that pull ups put pressure on the shoulder…I thought it was all on the back/bis…

6

Is the clicking in the front or back of the shoulder? Can you point out exactly where it is at?

7

I don’t think it’s an elbow problem, it sounds like a shoulder problem to me. I’ve had more than my fair share, gone through surgery, rehabed it, and still lifting. My shoulders click and crack.

First 2 things, stop doing upright rows(they suck) and stop benching(just for now). Search Eric Cressey and the diesel crew. Follow their should rehab routines. work on scapula retraction and depression. With any shoulder issues I don’t recommend doing a full hang in the bottom position of chins. The only thing holding your arm in place is your rotator cuff and shoulder capsule, neither of which you want to injure.

search and read Dave Tate’s bench cure article, to learn proper benching form, and start with floor presses before moving to a bench. have someone take photos of you standing facing them and sideways. Post them, so we can see what you’re posture looks like and if you have anterior head carriage.

Chances are you will need a look of back and scap work. Pulls ups are much more than just back and bis. For some using a supinated grip and really screw up your shoulders because the way the ligaments bind up and stretch. Chin ups with shoulder width or slightly wider is the way to go. Literally jump and grab the bar, that’s the grip and width your should use.

8

If their is no pain with the clicking, it’s most likely some form of minimal subluxation, work on strengthening the RC muscles.

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[quote]LevelHeaded wrote:
Is the clicking in the front or back of the shoulder? Can you point out exactly where it is at?[/quote]

The “X” is where I can hear/feel the clicking, even when I just rotate my shoulder.

10

From your location, it looks like it may be an AC Joint issue/mild AC ligament sprain. Make you you are keeping proper scapular positioning with all exercises and keep correct posture during the whole day. Also, you can try taping down the AC Joint during lifts to help stabilize it. This may help decrease the clicking.

11

Have you ever separated your shoulder, do lateral flyes and dips bother you? My guess is you’re impinging your supraspinatus which is/was causing your shoulder inflammation.

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[quote]ucallthatbass wrote:
Have you ever separated your shoulder, do lateral flyes and dips bother you? My guess is you’re impinging your supraspinatus which is/was causing your shoulder inflammation.[/quote]

Thanks for the reply. I will take a look at everything you said. First of all, what is the RC muscle? And so what you are saying is if I had to choose between Pull Ups and Chin Ups, I should do shoulder width chin ups, without going all the way down?

And no, Ive never separated my shoulder, and lateral flys and dips do not bother me.

And pictures are attached of side and front view

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Side View

14

From your side view photo, you look to have some forward roll to your shoulders, which may be causing some impingement to your supraspinatus and biceps tendon. Both can become inflamed and cause a rubbing/popping sensation as well. Both AC Joint issues and supra/biceps tendon inflammation can cause similar symptoms.

If you have your arms by your sides and raise them up to the side in an arc so your palm touch over the top of your head, do you feel any pain? If you do, where is that pain located?

If it is an internal impingement or biceps tendon inflammation issue, I’d recommend staying away from chin ups. Chin ups will place added emphasis on your biceps and also at the top of a chin up, you place your shoulder in an internally rotated position.

15

[quote]LevelHeaded wrote:
From your side view photo, you look to have some forward roll to your shoulders, which may be causing some impingement to your supraspinatus and biceps tendon. Both can become inflamed and cause a rubbing/popping sensation as well. Both AC Joint issues and supra/biceps tendon inflammation can cause similar symptoms.

If you have your arms by your sides and raise them up to the side in an arc so your palm touch over the top of your head, do you feel any pain? If you do, where is that pain located?

If it is an internal impingement or biceps tendon inflammation issue, I’d recommend staying away from chin ups. Chin ups will place added emphasis on your biceps and also at the top of a chin up, you place your shoulder in an internally rotated position.[/quote]

Hmm…thanks for the info. When I raise my arms like you said, it does not hurt.

16

One more question, what exercises should I avoid?

My major exercises I do every week:

Chest:
Bench
DB Flat Press
DB Incline Press

Back:
Weighted Pull Ups
Weighted Chin Ups
Barbell Rows
DB Rows

Legs:
Squats
Deadlifts

Bis:
Barbell Curls
DB Curls

Tris:
Lying down Barbell Extensions
Dips
CLose Grip Bench Press

Shoulders:
Seated DB Press
Standing Military Press
Arnold Press
and a shitload of shoulder rehab exercises

17

What are your goals with your lifting? Aesthetic purposes? Performance purposes? Just for fun? What type of split do you perform?

18

[quote]casrol28 wrote:
and a shitload of shoulder rehab exercises[/quote]
I was going to ask if you do any direct rotator cuff work. The boys seem to have this one nailed down correctly. May I ask what exactly you do for ‘shoulder rehab’?

19

[quote]LevelHeaded wrote:
What are your goals with your lifting? Aesthetic purposes? Performance purposes? Just for fun? What type of split do you perform? [/quote]

My goals for lifting are aesthetic purposes and just for fun. Nothing for any sport, or competition. Split I perform is I aim for 4 workout days in an 8 day period.

Chest/Tris/Shoulders
Back/Bis/ Rear Delts/ Traps
Legs
Total Body(all body parts)

20

[quote]saps wrote:

[quote]casrol28 wrote:
and a shitload of shoulder rehab exercises[/quote]
I was going to ask if you do any direct rotator cuff work. The boys seem to have this one nailed down correctly. May I ask what exactly you do for ‘shoulder rehab’?[/quote]

A lot of it is from the links the first poster put. Let me know if this is sufficient, or if there is more I should be doing(which I know there is, I haven’t checked out all the articles yet)

So on my Chest/Tris Day, I do for shoulder rehab:
-med ball push up one arm
-med ball push up both arms
-external rotations

on my back/bis day, I do for shoulder rehab:
Rear Delt Flyes
Dumbbell Upward Shrugs

on my leg day, I do for shoulder rehab:
Stretch: reach and lift
db external rotation
L-Lat Raises
YTWL on incline bench
Seated Cable Row with rope to neck
push up on swiss ball

on my off days I do for rehab:
Exercise band face pulls
exercise band lat flyes