Requirements for Jumping High

Training Powerlifting
81

[quote]adarqui wrote:

hanley wrote:

ERRRRRRRRRR.

Incorrect.

Nobody’s saying it’s not important. Obviously if you’re as tight as a camels arse in a sandstorm you’re not jumping anywhere fast (well, high).

I beleive that the point Adarqui is making is that dedicated flexability training is not important for having a good vert. Obviously this is assuming that good flexability is already present. But I’m sure Adarqui will chime in and correct me if I’m wrong.

i think my bad quoting may have confused what i wrote…

this is what roger nelson wrote in response to seph:

Roger Nelson wrote:

Seph, if we reread your post in question, we see that you do in fact make such claims. You say that flexibility is an important and often overlooked aspect of leaping ability and that Ziani is proof. These are claims, made by you, and neither of them is true.

in response to someone saying flexibility training is important, he says that is “not true”, which means he doesn’t think it’s important. he is stating that static stretching will reduce the stiffness of the tendons, and in fact reduce the jumping ability. so i take it he is saying that static flexibility training is in fact detrimental.

i will clarify my point… i am saying that, for someone who is looking to reach maximum potential, they must stick to some sort of flexibility/mobility improvement program… whether it be only static stretching post workout, or dynamic stretching pre and AIS/PNF post, flexibility training will give you an added performance boost (2-10% i’ve seen in studies).

so for standing vertical jumping or running vertical jump (where i think flexibility training can improve to a greater degree), if you get a 1-2" improvement over 8 weeks that would be very important. combine that with proper strength/power training and thats when you get your great results.

you can have a good/great vert without stretching, but, i believe strongly that flexibility training will give you that little bit extra to reach maximum potential. i believe it has the same effect on sprint performance as well.

peace hanley[/quote]

Ahhh ok!! That makes more sense alright!!

Peace!

82

Okay, I guess I should’ve been clearer in my statement. Static flexibility training is not necessary for a high vert and is actually detrimental. However, having a full funtional ROM is important for all athletes.

If one does lack flexibility then I would recommend methods such as EQIs and other forms of loaded stretching so that function and ROM are built simultaneously.

83

Desideratus15, i thought you might be more likely to listen considering the website its sourced from

http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=53597&tid=

84

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/proper_squat_tech.htm

(paragraph 6) for a similar reference

85

[quote]Desideratus15 wrote:During a vertical jump, once the shoulders begin to decelerate hip extension begins to take place (not knee extension). This hip extension is so powerful (because it comes from the strongest muscles in the body, glutes and hams) that the quads and lower leg lag behind. Thus, the hamstrings actually contribute to knee extension because the quads can’t “catch up.”

If you think the hamstrings contribute only 10% you are crazy. This is why wide stance squatters such as at westside can jump out of the gym even though they do barely any quad work. It’s also why squatting lower rather than high is better for jump performance, you strength the muscles used in the movement better with a lower squat than high squat. AND it is also why guys like Kelly Baggett prescribe deadlifts (barely any quad action) to help improve jump performance.[/quote]

Oh nooo!!! They’re talking about the Evil Quads!

holds up Posterior Chain Talisman for protection

You’re completely wrong, by the way. If the quads don’t do anything, like you say, why are they so fucking big? The pinky toe doesn’t do anything, and it’s starting to recede. Also, yes you do use your quads in a deadlift. A lot.

Westside doesn’t do any quad movements because the gear they use obviates the need for quad work, as it basically skips the part of the movement they’re most involved in, leaving hip extension as most important part.

86

[quote]rmccart1 wrote:
Desideratus15 wrote:During a vertical jump, once the shoulders begin to decelerate hip extension begins to take place (not knee extension). This hip extension is so powerful (because it comes from the strongest muscles in the body, glutes and hams) that the quads and lower leg lag behind. Thus, the hamstrings actually contribute to knee extension because the quads can’t “catch up.”

If you think the hamstrings contribute only 10% you are crazy. This is why wide stance squatters such as at westside can jump out of the gym even though they do barely any quad work. It’s also why squatting lower rather than high is better for jump performance, you strength the muscles used in the movement better with a lower squat than high squat. AND it is also why guys like Kelly Baggett prescribe deadlifts (barely any quad action) to help improve jump performance.

Oh nooo!!! They’re talking about the Evil Quads!

holds up Posterior Chain Talisman for protection

You’re completely wrong, by the way. If the quads don’t do anything, like you say, why are they so fucking big? The pinky toe doesn’t do anything, and it’s starting to recede. Also, yes you do use your quads in a deadlift. A lot.

Westside doesn’t do any quad movements because the gear they use obviates the need for quad work, as it basically skips the part of the movement they’re most involved in, leaving hip extension as most important part.[/quote]

Not according to Louie Simmons and Dave Tate. Louie himself said that the athletic movements (not just squats and DLs) are mostly dependent on power from the hips, not quads. This is not to say that quads do nothing. The quads contribute a lot (as Hanley puts it, you can’t jump w/o quads), but most of the power comes from the hips.

87

[quote]Desideratus15 wrote:
Ok show me an example of a powerlifter with a torn biceps tendon have NO trouble performing they’re bench work outs even though the biceps is not only not a prime mover in the bench, it is a non existant mover.

You can’t use injuries to determine how much a muscle group contributes to a movement.[/quote]

You got it wrong again. Benching with a torn bicep is hard but it can be done, at least the concentric portion of it, unlike jumping with a torn quad. The quads are as important in jumping as the triceps are important in benching.

88

You have to remember that Simmons and Tate are competitive, geared powerlifters. While they know a thing or two about squatting, the squat they use is radically different from what an athlete is going to use. Many of the techniques they advocate are appropriate for a very small percentage of the population–namely, other competitive, geared powerlifters.

Or, for a simpler rebuttal, I don’t care what Louie says, he’s wrong in this case. Look up videos of Jim Wendler or someone squatting. They’re squatting like Louie says, but look at their quads. Yeah, they’re huge. I don’t know where the idea that wide-stance squats completely bypass the quads came from, or why it’s desirable. The quads are some of the biggest muscle in your body. Why wouldn’t you want to get them involved? Note also, the quads are the reason your full deadlift is so much higher than your Romanian deadlift.

89

[quote]rmccart1 wrote:
You have to remember that Simmons and Tate are competitive, geared powerlifters. While they know a thing or two about squatting, the squat they use is radically different from what an athlete is going to use. Many of the techniques they advocate are appropriate for a very small percentage of the population–namely, other competitive, geared powerlifters.

Or, for a simpler rebuttal, I don’t care what Louie says, he’s wrong in this case. Look up videos of Jim Wendler or someone squatting. They’re squatting like Louie says, but look at their quads. Yeah, they’re huge. I don’t know where the idea that wide-stance squats completely bypass the quads came from, or why it’s desirable. The quads are some of the biggest muscle in your body. Why wouldn’t you want to get them involved? Note also, the quads are the reason your full deadlift is so much higher than your Romanian deadlift.[/quote]

Yes they are competitive geared powerlifters, but they also consult people on other sports like football and track, and they basically say the same thing, even citing proof of wide box squatters who jump high (but of course, not necessarily elite). Watch Louie’s seminar (it’s in a link somewhere in this site a .wmv file, but I don’t know where it is).

I thought the reason why the full deadlift is better than the RDL is because the back is put in a more upright and hence advantageous position which makes it stronger. Needless to say that the quads should get involved.

Well, we both don’t like Westside underestimating the quads, but I think they’re just doing it out of the context that people ignore the posterior chain and think quads too much in squatting. I think we also agree that quads are important in deadlifts, jumping and other movements.

90

Yeah, I’ve got the video on my computer, and I’ve watched the whole thing a couple of times.

I’ll just say, do wide-stance box squats. Do them until you can hit 2x bodyweight+ off a box slightly below parallel. Then look at your quads.

91

[quote]rmccart1 wrote:

I’ll just say, do wide-stance box squats. Do them until you can hit 2x bodyweight+ off a box slightly below parallel. Then look at your quads.[/quote]

Great post.

Sure what would your quads have to do with squatting or deadlifting anyway?

92

[quote]Hanley wrote:
rmccart1 wrote:
I’ll just say, do wide-stance box squats. Do them until you can hit 2x bodyweight+ off a box slightly below parallel. Then look at your quads.

Great post.

Sure what would your quads have to do with squatting or deadlifting anyway?[/quote]

Yup. Any sort of knee extension will involve the quads. No question about that.

93

just thought someone might find this interesting…

my dad helped me translate a kadour ziani video where he explains jumping technique, here is the video:

here is the original thread it was posted in: http://www.theverticalsummit.com/viewtopic.php?t=738

here’s the translation:

my dad (alex darqui) helped translate kadour’s video for me… he is french… it was a little rough but here’s what we got:

STANDING UP TALKING: (0:05 - 0:16)

kadour: the body leaves from here (fingers/hands) to there (feet). thus we must have the feet like the hands. we must be able to utilize both. that means, having a good flexion.

some guy talks (0:16)

TAKEOFF CONVERSATION (when making the hand movements at 0:16 - 0:29)

kadour: the takeoff of the foot is that (0;18 - 0:20 - signifying heel to toe movement upward)
kadour: not that (0:21 - banging hand on floor)
kadour: thus if we want to work it right, we must do this. (referring back to 0:18-0:20, heel to toe movement)

my interpretation of his example: the foot should be like the hand during a jump shot, but, on the floor. so make the foot like the hand, flex not only the ankle, but the toes as well, especially the big toe???

CONVERSATION ON FLEXIBILITY OF THE FOOT: (here he shows how to “practice” the movement : 0:30 - 1:07)

kadour: it is important to flex the big toe (he shows you how to practice it at 0:37).
kadour: you should be able to sit on it without forcing it (0:49).
kadour: you should be sitting on it (the butt).
kadour: it has nothing to do with the (points to quads), there is nothing that pulls, no muscle action, just the big toe.
kadour: (hopping on butt on heels) the machine is made like this, the machine (body) is perfect. (1:05)

ok if anyone who is french has a better translation, plz post :slight_smile:

very interesting, opinions?

peace

94

[quote]undeadlift wrote:
Hanley wrote:
rmccart1 wrote:
I’ll just say, do wide-stance box squats. Do them until you can hit 2x bodyweight+ off a box slightly below parallel. Then look at your quads.

Great post.

Sure what would your quads have to do with squatting or deadlifting anyway?

Yup. Any sort of knee extension will involve the quads. No question about that.[/quote]

Just like any sort of elbow extension will involve the triceps…even though the triceps don’t function at all in a throwing motion which involves elbow extension.

Listen, I did not say your quads are insignificant in squatting deadlifting or jumping and running. But, I am saying time is MUCH better spent elsewhere.

Also, just because a movement involves a muscle group does not mean that muscle group is significant. A person kicking a soccer ball for example, knee extension takes place yet 90% of this is from the hip flexors, partly why leg extensions won’t do anything to help you kick a ball a greater distance like some think (I did not say YOU think that).

In regards to brian m. dude I never said or argued that wide squats are SUPERIOR to olympic style squats for jumping so relax before you have a boner over your Yessis reference. All I said was westside style (wide stance) squatters can still jump high despite their lack of quad strengthening emphasis.

As for Yessis (this is just in general), go ask some of the CF forum how they feel he is as a performance trainer. He also states box jumps as worthless for increasing jumping ability as they don’t allow enough ankle extension. Last i checked they worked well for Joe D. I vote for CF and Joe D. any day, but to each his own.

95

[quote]undeadlift wrote:
Desideratus15 wrote:
Ok show me an example of a powerlifter with a torn biceps tendon have NO trouble performing they’re bench work outs even though the biceps is not only not a prime mover in the bench, it is a non existant mover.

You can’t use injuries to determine how much a muscle group contributes to a movement.

You got it wrong again. Benching with a torn bicep is hard but it can be done, at least the concentric portion of it, unlike jumping with a torn quad. The quads are as important in jumping as the triceps are important in benching.[/quote]

Benching without an eccentric is not benching.

So you’re saying if someone has a torn quad it’s 100% impossible for them to jump at all?

Requirements for bench: shoulders, triceps, chest (probably in that order)

For vert: glutes, erectors, hams, quads, calves

you really think the quads are the second most important muscle in jumping considering hip extension not knee extension is what takes place immediately after the descent?

96

[quote]rmccart1 wrote:
Desideratus15 wrote:During a vertical jump, once the shoulders begin to decelerate hip extension begins to take place (not knee extension). This hip extension is so powerful (because it comes from the strongest muscles in the body, glutes and hams) that the quads and lower leg lag behind. Thus, the hamstrings actually contribute to knee extension because the quads can’t “catch up.”

If you think the hamstrings contribute only 10% you are crazy. This is why wide stance squatters such as at westside can jump out of the gym even though they do barely any quad work. It’s also why squatting lower rather than high is better for jump performance, you strength the muscles used in the movement better with a lower squat than high squat. AND it is also why guys like Kelly Baggett prescribe deadlifts (barely any quad action) to help improve jump performance.

Oh nooo!!! They’re talking about the Evil Quads!

holds up Posterior Chain Talisman for protection

You’re completely wrong, by the way. If the quads don’t do anything, like you say, why are they so fucking big? The pinky toe doesn’t do anything, and it’s starting to recede. Also, yes you do use your quads in a deadlift. A lot.

Westside doesn’t do any quad movements because the gear they use obviates the need for quad work, as it basically skips the part of the movement they’re most involved in, leaving hip extension as most important part.
[/quote]

Huge quads are a hindrance in jumping and sprinting, not a benefit

Westside advocates squatting where the shins stay vertical, this is because the more the knees come forward the more the hamstrings are taken out of the movement and the quads come into the movement. Now don’t you think westside advocates vertical shins and sitting far back because this stretches the hamstrings and glutes more allowing a greater stretch reflex? Don’t you think they know this allows them to use the hams/glutes more than the quads because the hams/glutes are so much stronger thus, a bigger squat and bigger total?

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/texasbbq-2.htm (search hamstring)

This is advocated with gear or no gear. Just look at Joe D. and why he uses box squats what like 90% of the time he has his guys squat. Stronger hams/glutes are much more of a priority than strong quads. I know this is not the ONLY reason for box squats and sitting far back but it is the primary.

I don’t know why everyone is fighting the fact the hip extension is WAY more important than knee extension. A slow twitch muscle group cannot compare to TWO fast twitch muscle groups when it comes to anything power related (strength or speed).

97

[quote]undeadlift wrote:
rmccart1 wrote:
You have to remember that Simmons and Tate are competitive, geared powerlifters. While they know a thing or two about squatting, the squat they use is radically different from what an athlete is going to use. Many of the techniques they advocate are appropriate for a very small percentage of the population–namely, other competitive, geared powerlifters.

Or, for a simpler rebuttal, I don’t care what Louie says, he’s wrong in this case. Look up videos of Jim Wendler or someone squatting. They’re squatting like Louie says, but look at their quads. Yeah, they’re huge. I don’t know where the idea that wide-stance squats completely bypass the quads came from, or why it’s desirable. The quads are some of the biggest muscle in your body. Why wouldn’t you want to get them involved? Note also, the quads are the reason your full deadlift is so much higher than your Romanian deadlift.

Yes they are competitive geared powerlifters, but they also consult people on other sports like football and track, and they basically say the same thing, even citing proof of wide box squatters who jump high (but of course, not necessarily elite). Watch Louie’s seminar (it’s in a link somewhere in this site a .wmv file, but I don’t know where it is).

I thought the reason why the full deadlift is better than the RDL is because the back is put in a more upright and hence advantageous position which makes it stronger. Needless to say that the quads should get involved.

Well, we both don’t like Westside underestimating the quads, but I think they’re just doing it out of the context that people ignore the posterior chain and think quads too much in squatting. I think we also agree that quads are important in deadlifts, jumping and other movements.[/quote]

The reason full dead is better is primarily(!) this (taken from EC’s deadlift diagnosis in regards to being weak off the floor):

  1. Your hamstrings aren’t up to par. Take a look at the starting position for the deadlift, paying specific attention to the hips. You’ll notice that the pelvis is as anteriorly-tilted as it can get. This positioning places the hamstrings at a mechanical advantage early in the pull. If your hams are weak, you won’t be able to get past this initial phase of the pull, so it won’t even matter how strong your glutes and lower back are.

Just another excerpt I thought relevant:

B) The hips can be too low. This might seem contrary to the last point, but I have to admit, I’m glad that this problem exists. Why? Well, for starters, it’s hilarious to watch someone try to “squat up” a deadlift with their quads! Plus, it gives me an opportunity to once again reiterate how much stronger �?? yet unappreciated �?? the posterior chain is than the all-show-and-no-go quadriceps.

When you push your hips way back to get more knee flexion, you move the fulcrum (the point about which a lever rotates �?? in this case, it’s the hip joint) away from the bar, therefore increasing the lever arm of the resistance. Minus the biomechanics lingo, this simply means that the bar becomes a lot heavier for your posterior chain to handle as you move it further away from your hip joint.

Solutions: Start your pull with the hips higher and hammer on the posterior chain. Then you’ll have no reason to want to use the quads when pulling. Oh yeah, don’t pull in front of mirrors, either. You’ll be too tempted to check out your quads, you narcissistic pansy.

EC’s solution for a bigger and better pull, forget the quads…

98

[quote]Desideratus15 wrote:
undeadlift wrote:
rmccart1 wrote:
You have to remember that Simmons and Tate are competitive, geared powerlifters. While they know a thing or two about squatting, the squat they use is radically different from what an athlete is going to use. Many of the techniques they advocate are appropriate for a very small percentage of the population–namely, other competitive, geared powerlifters.

Or, for a simpler rebuttal, I don’t care what Louie says, he’s wrong in this case. Look up videos of Jim Wendler or someone squatting. They’re squatting like Louie says, but look at their quads. Yeah, they’re huge. I don’t know where the idea that wide-stance squats completely bypass the quads came from, or why it’s desirable. The quads are some of the biggest muscle in your body. Why wouldn’t you want to get them involved? Note also, the quads are the reason your full deadlift is so much higher than your Romanian deadlift.

Yes they are competitive geared powerlifters, but they also consult people on other sports like football and track, and they basically say the same thing, even citing proof of wide box squatters who jump high (but of course, not necessarily elite). Watch Louie’s seminar (it’s in a link somewhere in this site a .wmv file, but I don’t know where it is).

I thought the reason why the full deadlift is better than the RDL is because the back is put in a more upright and hence advantageous position which makes it stronger. Needless to say that the quads should get involved.

Well, we both don’t like Westside underestimating the quads, but I think they’re just doing it out of the context that people ignore the posterior chain and think quads too much in squatting. I think we also agree that quads are important in deadlifts, jumping and other movements.

The reason full dead is better is primarily(!) this (taken from EC’s deadlift diagnosis in regards to being weak off the floor):

  1. Your hamstrings aren’t up to par. Take a look at the starting position for the deadlift, paying specific attention to the hips. You’ll notice that the pelvis is as anteriorly-tilted as it can get. This positioning places the hamstrings at a mechanical advantage early in the pull. If your hams are weak, you won’t be able to get past this initial phase of the pull, so it won’t even matter how strong your glutes and lower back are.

Just another excerpt I thought relevant:

B) The hips can be too low. This might seem contrary to the last point, but I have to admit, I’m glad that this problem exists. Why? Well, for starters, it’s hilarious to watch someone try to “squat up” a deadlift with their quads! Plus, it gives me an opportunity to once again reiterate how much stronger �?? yet unappreciated �?? the posterior chain is than the all-show-and-no-go quadriceps.

When you push your hips way back to get more knee flexion, you move the fulcrum (the point about which a lever rotates �?? in this case, it’s the hip joint) away from the bar, therefore increasing the lever arm of the resistance. Minus the biomechanics lingo, this simply means that the bar becomes a lot heavier for your posterior chain to handle as you move it further away from your hip joint.

Solutions: Start your pull with the hips higher and hammer on the posterior chain. Then you’ll have no reason to want to use the quads when pulling. Oh yeah, don’t pull in front of mirrors, either. You’ll be too tempted to check out your quads, you narcissistic pansy.

EC’s solution for a bigger and better pull, forget the quads…[/quote]

So the quads are unimportant while deadlifting now too???

All sorts are posting on T-Nation these days. Someone needs to get in contact with Brad Gillingham and see what he thinks of all this. I mean he’s no EC (no disrespect to the guy), but I’m sure he knows a thing or two about deadlifting.

99

[quote]Desideratus15 wrote:
Start your pull with the hips higher and hammer on the posterior chain. Then you’ll have no reason to want to use the quads when pulling. Oh yeah, don’t pull in front of mirrors, either. You’ll be too tempted to check out your quads, you narcissistic pansy.[/quote]

Haha!

No seriously… HAHA!!!

100

[quote]Desideratus15 wrote:
Yup. Any sort of knee extension will involve the quads. No question about that.

Just like any sort of elbow extension will involve the triceps…even though the triceps don’t function at all in a throwing motion which involves elbow extension.[/quote]

Any sort of elbow extension will require the triceps to contract. At least that’s how I throw. I don’t know anyone who throws through sheer power of the shoulders.