Requirements for Jumping High

Training Powerlifting
61

I keep hearing talks of leg strength, explosive power, squat correlation and so on but not much talk of flexibility. The thing is lots of people underestimate how much flexibility can contribute to agility and leap. You want proof. Look at Kadour Ziani. He is actually 5’ 11" but his secret is that he stretches 4 hours a day as he claimed in an interview. He gets his vertical leap from “elastic energy”. But I’m not saying that strength and squatting doesn’t come into play when it comes to jumping high. It’s all these things that an elite athlete must utilize to rise to the peak and beyond. I am designing a program for just that. Check out my topic “Elite Athlete Workout” and feel free to help me all you can with advice/suggestions on how to make the most efficient workout.

p.s. you want to increase your vertical leap? look into Jumpsoles. ; )

62

Seph, Ziani is a freak of nature. Sure being flexible may help a bit, but he has all the tools necessary to jump high.

63

[quote]seph89 wrote:
I keep hearing talks of leg strength, explosive power, squat correlation and so on but not much talk of flexibility. The thing is lots of people underestimate how much flexibility can contribute to agility and leap. You want proof. Look at Kadour Ziani. He is actually 5’ 11" but his secret is that he stretches 4 hours a day as he claimed in an interview. He gets his vertical leap from “elastic energy”. But I’m not saying that strength and squatting doesn’t come into play when it comes to jumping high. It’s all these things that an elite athlete must utilize to rise to the peak and beyond. I am designing a program for just that. Check out my topic “Elite Athlete Workout” and feel free to help me all you can with advice/suggestions on how to make the most efficient workout.

p.s. you want to increase your vertical leap? look into Jumpsoles. ; )[/quote]

I’m sorry, but the ignorance expressed in this post was too much for me to pass by. Just about everything you said was terribly, horribly, wrong. Not anything against you, but you are severely misinformed.

First of all, flexibility has nothing to do with “elastic energy.” Elastic energy is what is generated during high speed movements in which the tendons provide the majority of the power. What happens is that the muscles lock up and even shorten, stretching the tendons like rubber bands. When the tendons snap back to their original length, like springs, the energy is transmitted back to the ground, load, or whatever. Activities like top speed sprinting, or throwing a fastball are almost entirely dependent upon so called “elastic energy.” Again, flexibility has nothing to do with this.

The fact that KZ jumps so high has nothing to do with his training methods, but everything to do with what he was born with. He has a thin skeletal frame, high muscle insertion points, long tendons, a high natural fast twitch ratio, is carrying very little excess weight around, and does nothing but jump. His body is basically the perfect spring. One more time, flexibility does not play a part here. In fact, static flexibility training actually decreases tendon stiffness, and therefore is actually inhibiting his body from generating as much force as possible.

Second, forget about Jumpsoles. They’re nothing but a cheap gimmick designed to strip gullible teens of their money. By nature, Jumpsoles increase GCT, add weight to the very distal point of the limb (thereby messing up motor patterns), and compromise the safety of the achilles tendon. Really, I can’t think of a positive for these things, unless you get the proprioceptor plugs and use them as part of your warmup. Hardly work the money though.

Now, not addressing the person above, the standard vertical leap (or countermovement jump) utilizes the quads more heavily than any other kind of leap and is based off of explosive power more so than stiffness and reactivity. The muscle contribution is hard to ascertain, but I would venture to say that vertical propulsion comes from the following muscle groups in these rough proportions:
Quads - 30-40%
Glutes - 30-40%
Hamstrings - 10-15%
Gastrocs - 10-15%
Shoulders/Arms - 5-10%

Of course, other muscle groups such as the erector spinae need to be strong isometrically to support the upper body, but they are not propulsive muscles. Unlike many claim, the hamstrings are in poor position to generate force during a CMJ and therefore don’t contribute much. The gastrocs are in a similarly awkward position so their power is limited too. This leaves the prime movers as the quads and glutes. The proportion of each will change based upon which muscle group is the most developed.

64

[quote]arnoud verschoor wrote:
Seph, Ziani is a freak of nature. Sure being flexible may help a bit, but he has all the tools necessary to jump high. [/quote]

Just because a person can do something that the majority of others cannot doesn’t make him/her a freak of nature. That is just an excuse. Firstly look at Ziani. He has a skinny ectomorphic frame. Does he look like a guy who could squat huge amounts of weight i.e. 2x his bodyweight? He is no genetic freak or gifted individual. He’s just a guy who busts his ass and kills himself training which seperates him from the other 90% of people out there. But just to show you, here is an interview:

http://www.streetballonline.com/content/view/307/1/

65

[quote]seph89 wrote:
arnoud verschoor wrote:
Seph, Ziani is a freak of nature. Sure being flexible may help a bit, but he has all the tools necessary to jump high.

Just because a person can do something that the majority of others cannot doesn’t make him/her a freak of nature. That is just an excuse. Firstly look at Ziani. He has a skinny ectomorphic frame. Does he look like a guy who could squat huge amounts of weight i.e. 2x his bodyweight? He is no genetic freak or gifted individual. He’s just a guy who busts his ass and kills himself training which seperates him from the other 90% of people out there. But just to show you, here is an interview:

http://www.streetballonline.com/content/view/307/1/

[/quote]

Ziani is not a genetic freak?!?! You are retarded.

66

[quote]seph89 wrote:
I keep hearing talks of leg strength, explosive power, squat correlation and so on but not much talk of flexibility. The thing is lots of people underestimate how much flexibility can contribute to agility and leap. You want proof. Look at Kadour Ziani. He is actually 5’ 11" but his secret is that he stretches 4 hours a day as he claimed in an interview. He gets his vertical leap from “elastic energy”. But I’m not saying that strength and squatting doesn’t come into play when it comes to jumping high. It’s all these things that an elite athlete must utilize to rise to the peak and beyond. I am designing a program for just that. Check out my topic “Elite Athlete Workout” and feel free to help me all you can with advice/suggestions on how to make the most efficient workout.

p.s. you want to increase your vertical leap? look into Jumpsoles. ; )[/quote]

Jumpsoles?! Yeah,right! That what every elite high jumper or decathlete uses to get his hoops LOL.

67

Yo seph

Here’s Kelly Baggets response to this question:

Q: How important is flexibility training? Khadour Zhiani says that all he does is flexibility training.

A: “A minimum level of flexibilty is necessary, but too much is just as bad as too little. As for Khadour Zhiani, see the above description of the guy with 20 inch legs and a 75% Fast twitch ratio. Couple that with 5% body-fat and a perfect bone and tendon structure and you could get results sitting on your ass playing video games.”

To answer your statement, Ziani most probably isn’t capable of squatting 2x bw, but the fact that he can utilize what “little” strength he has to such a degree is what makes him a genetic freak.

68

During a vertical jump, once the shoulders begin to decelerate hip extension begins to take place (not knee extension). This hip extension is so powerful (because it comes from the strongest muscles in the body, glutes and hams) that the quads and lower leg lag behind. Thus, the hamstrings actually contribute to knee extension because the quads can’t “catch up.”

If you think the hamstrings contribute only 10% you are crazy. This is why wide stance squatters such as at westside can jump out of the gym even though they do barely any quad work. It’s also why squatting lower rather than high is better for jump performance, you strength the muscles used in the movement better with a lower squat than high squat. AND it is also why guys like Kelly Baggett prescribe deadlifts (barely any quad action) to help improve jump performance.

69

Just one more note on muscles lagging behind others. You could probably ask EC about this one with his baseball knowledge. During a baseball pitch even though extension of the elbow joint occurs the triceps plays NO role in this. The extension merely takes place due to the more powerful muscles, in this case the trunk and legs, causing it. Look at a video analysis of a baseball pitch, you can literally see the triceps flapping about during a pitch.

Just because anatomy states what a muscle group does, doesn’t mean it is always responsible for that specific action.

70

Desideratus15,

-your arguments are flawed and poorly thought out

-first of all, most powerlifters CANT jump well considering how strong they are (ie the comparison to Olympic lifters have been played a thousand times and they’ve usually got more hops)

second of all-how can you say that powerlifters barely train their quads when one of the 3 main lifts is the SQUAT!

-and if that was the best style of squatting for jumping you’d see people spreading their legs 4 feet apart and sitting way back every time they try to jump…yes-this is the most efficient way to squat considering the current rules…NO it is not the most effective way to jump!

-3rd of all, although i’m a big advocate of squatting low, its been argued and many highly regarded strength coaches actually suggest a higher 1/2 squat AFTER a base level of strength has been established
-a well balanced physic will always be the best (either in performance or saftey, most often both)

-4th of all, Kelly prescribes posterior chain work because most (white) athletes have no posterior…if you look at the figures i gave before(FROM Kelly’s book), its Obvious that i agree with him that posterior work is important, but especially because most young atheletes have such a glaring weakness there (refer to point 3)

71

Deuce!

72

I think all the signs of a classic vertical jump thread have been hit:

1.) Some people saying you need to squat 3x bodyweight, some saying the squat doesn’t matter.

2.) Argument over whether 1/4 squats or full squats are better. Bonus points if you get into a close-stance vs. powerlifting stance argument.

3.) Kadour Ziani reference. Flexibility mention here is optional but a nice touch in this case, especially when the analogy to a rubber band actually proves the opposite: stretch a rubber band 1000x and see what happens to it’s spring.

4.) Argument over whether Olympic lifters or Powerlifters jump higher despite the fact that, outside of the elite level, neither of them jump particularly well.

5.) People who have never talked to him discussing why Kelly Baggett does a certain thing in his training.

6.) Jumpsoles reference. Only half points here though because nobody has mentioned who their friend who plays D2 ball in Canada gained 7" on his vert after using Air Alert.

7.) Minute breakdown of the percentages of muscles used in the vertical jump, neglecting the obvious fact that everybody has different body structure and strength in different muscle groups.

So if you’re scoring at home this thread hits a perfect 7/7!

Remember kids, 20% of what you do gets 80% of the results but it’s a lot more fun to argue about the stuff that doesn’t really matter!

73

[quote]brian.m wrote:
Desideratus15,

-your arguments are flawed and poorly thought out

-first of all, most powerlifters CANT jump well considering how strong they are (ie the comparison to Olympic lifters have been played a thousand times and they’ve usually got more hops)

second of all-how can you say that powerlifters barely train their quads when one of the 3 main lifts is the SQUAT!

-and if that was the best style of squatting for jumping you’d see people spreading their legs 4 feet apart and sitting way back every time they try to jump…yes-this is the most efficient way to squat considering the current rules…NO it is not the most effective way to jump!

-3rd of all, although i’m a big advocate of squatting low, its been argued and many highly regarded strength coaches actually suggest a higher 1/2 squat AFTER a base level of strength has been established
-a well balanced physic will always be the best (either in performance or saftey, most often both)

-4th of all, Kelly prescribes posterior chain work because most (white) athletes have no posterior…if you look at the figures i gave before(FROM Kelly’s book), its Obvious that i agree with him that posterior work is important, but especially because most young atheletes have such a glaring weakness there (refer to point 3)
[/quote]

Greg Panora (one of Eric Cressey’s friends) is one of the strongest people in the world and can jump about 37 inches with NO jump training. They’re are countless other examples at westside and other places.

Have you ever squatted wide??? See how sore your quads get. It is a posterior chain movement. If the quads were so significant in squatting big numbers Louie Simmons would be advocating strengthening them with movements more so than GHR’s and Reverse Hypers. Last I checked they’re are NO quad movements in the westside split.

Is lowering to parallel or lower the most effective way to jump? Uh, no. But with your logic it would be considering this is the best way to squat. Deadlifting wouldn’t be needed either because the movement in no way is similar to a vertical jump. Just because a movement does not EXACTLY replicate another movement does not mean there is no cross over effect. You need to stop with the sport specific bull shit. It doesn’t work.

Go take a mechanical analysis class or do some reputable biomechanics research, then we’ll talk about how much the quads contribute to a vertical jump.

Kelly prescribes posterior chain work because most (ALL races) athletes can benefit from it. Kelly writes his stuff for the average trainee, not the white average trainee.

Lastly, show me some studies comparing verticals of powerlifters and olympic lifters in the same weight classes. Not one example of how Pyrros Dimas jumps higher than Andy Bolton.

74

[quote]Roger Nelsen wrote:
seph89 wrote:
I keep hearing talks of leg strength, explosive power, squat correlation and so on but not much talk of flexibility. The thing is lots of people underestimate how much flexibility can contribute to agility and leap. You want proof. Look at Kadour Ziani. He is actually 5’ 11" but his secret is that he stretches 4 hours a day as he claimed in an interview. He gets his vertical leap from “elastic energy”. But I’m not saying that strength and squatting doesn’t come into play when it comes to jumping high. It’s all these things that an elite athlete must utilize to rise to the peak and beyond. I am designing a program for just that. Check out my topic “Elite Athlete Workout” and feel free to help me all you can with advice/suggestions on how to make the most efficient workout.

p.s. you want to increase your vertical leap? look into Jumpsoles. ; )

I’m sorry, but the ignorance expressed in this post was too much for me to pass by. Just about everything you said was terribly, horribly, wrong. Not anything against you, but you are severely misinformed.

First of all, flexibility has nothing to do with “elastic energy.” Elastic energy is what is generated during high speed movements in which the tendons provide the majority of the power. What happens is that the muscles lock up and even shorten, stretching the tendons like rubber bands. When the tendons snap back to their original length, like springs, the energy is transmitted back to the ground, load, or whatever. Activities like top speed sprinting, or throwing a fastball are almost entirely dependent upon so called “elastic energy.” Again, flexibility has nothing to do with this.

The fact that KZ jumps so high has nothing to do with his training methods, but everything to do with what he was born with. He has a thin skeletal frame, high muscle insertion points, long tendons, a high natural fast twitch ratio, is carrying very little excess weight around, and does nothing but jump. His body is basically the perfect spring. One more time, flexibility does not play a part here. In fact, static flexibility training actually decreases tendon stiffness, and therefore is actually inhibiting his body from generating as much force as possible.

Second, forget about Jumpsoles. They’re nothing but a cheap gimmick designed to strip gullible teens of their money. By nature, Jumpsoles increase GCT, add weight to the very distal point of the limb (thereby messing up motor patterns), and compromise the safety of the achilles tendon. Really, I can’t think of a positive for these things, unless you get the proprioceptor plugs and use them as part of your warmup. Hardly work the money though.

Now, not addressing the person above, the standard vertical leap (or countermovement jump) utilizes the quads more heavily than any other kind of leap and is based off of explosive power more so than stiffness and reactivity. The muscle contribution is hard to ascertain, but I would venture to say that vertical propulsion comes from the following muscle groups in these rough proportions:
Quads - 30-40%
Glutes - 30-40%
Hamstrings - 10-15%
Gastrocs - 10-15%
Shoulders/Arms - 5-10%

Of course, other muscle groups such as the erector spinae need to be strong isometrically to support the upper body, but they are not propulsive muscles. Unlike many claim, the hamstrings are in poor position to generate force during a CMJ and therefore don’t contribute much. The gastrocs are in a similarly awkward position so their power is limited too. This leaves the prime movers as the quads and glutes. The proportion of each will change based upon which muscle group is the most developed.
[/quote]

Firstly Roger Nelson, I did not claim these things which you so utterly describe as “terribly, horribly wrong”. I should have put them in quotes because if you looked at the link which I put then you would have seen that all of those things actually came from the interview. Perhaps I should have put it into quotes. I have a question for you. Are you a doctor or a very experienced strength coach? Because your profile says that you have been training for “about 2 years” yet you speak so hypothetically as if you have years upon years of knowledge. I’m just curious. Have you even tried the Jumpsoles or plyometrics with similiar demands as those put by the Jumpsoles, that you are debunking them. Have you carried out or found any experiments to prove that they are harmful to athletes? And as for KZ, he stretches 4 hours a day yet it doesn’t seem to be so detrimental to his jumping abilities. And as for “elastic energy” watch his videos and notice how he almost always sprints or runs fast before takeoff. That is probably what he is referring to. And any areas which I’m wrong at, whatever…live and learn. But I want to hear what you have to say.

75

Well, Seph, any pros why you should use jumpsoles? I can think of a lot of better ways to increase my vertical jump, but I must admit I’ve never used them, so I’m curious.

76

in no way have i said against being really strong helping people jump high as in your first example

yes i’ve squatted wide-not all powerlifters do/louis simmons isnt the only strength/jump trainer (latter is clearly not his focus anyays)

-i never got into sport specific stuff exept to note that your previous examples of the “best” jumping exercises arent actually so, as i dont have much faith in it either (strengthen the muscles, train the movements, and repeat is a better approach and i’d guess you’d feel the same way)

obviously i’m not going to go to a class simply to make a point or not, but i really dont know why your using kelly as a reference when you clearly denoted his breakdown of muscles used in a standing 2foot vert that i and others quoted ( which was what this whole topic was based on )

last comment wasnt even relevant…but just for personal experience…back when i used to practice jumping a lot i jumped pretty good…when i focused on strenght (mainly posterior) and only did a little jumping my vert went down

after i got past a double bw deadlift, it was still pretty low…after changing my training for layoffs and such due to my back injury, my quads got a bunch stronger but my pulls are still weaker and my VJ is back on the rise
-however, i’m doing a little more actual jumping (suprise), and i’ve found, from going from a weak skinny kid who jumps alot, to a not quite as weakand skinny kid who jumps (albeit not as much) my vj is not much higher than it was years ago since the initial jump training

77

Seph, if we reread your post in question, we see that you do in fact make such claims. You say that flexibility is an important and often overlooked aspect of leaping ability and that Ziani is proof. These are claims, made by you, and neither of them is true.

As for my own experience, that is not important. I speak like I have knowledge because I do. I understand the movements in question inside and out. I know what goes into them physiologically, neurologically, and biomechanically. And while I don’t have years of experience, I have decades of knowledge taken from experienced and highly regarded coaches and a vast number of texts.

And as for Jumpsoles, yes, I tried them when I was an uninformed and gullible 15 year old and got nothing out of them. I still have them in my garage somewhere. Beyond my own experiences, anyone who understands what plyos are trying to accomplish will see that Jumpsoles are detrimental. Not only that, but there have been studies showing that incorporating platform strength shoes into a plyometric routine actually greatly increases incidence of injury and reduces results.

Finally, the fact that Ziani stretches daily in no way says anything about flexibility. It is a fact that during elastic dominant movements the tendons provide the propulsion (supported by rigid muscles) and that static flexibility training reduces the stiffness of the tendons. A spring with a lower K value is a spring capable of returning less energy, plain and simple.

Sorry if my first post came off with a bad tone to it, but I can’t stand to have people giving bad advice. There are volumes of texts on how each movement works and what factors contribute yet people continue to needlessly speculate.

78

flexibility has nothing to do with leaping ability?

ok, so, we have two basketball athletes, and they are doing a running vertical jump:

ATHLETE A: MUSCLE THAT ARE TIGHT AS SHIT AND AT LESS THAN OPTIMAL RESTING LENGTH.
TRAINING A: STRENGTH & POWER / SPORT

ATHLETE B: MUSCLE THAT ARE AT OPTIMAL LENGTH AND STRENGTH.
TRAINING B: FLEXIBILITY / MOBILITY / STRENGTH & POWER / SPORT

lets even say that athlete B does static stretching after his sport/strength & power workouts…

who would people here take?

i got my money on B - but thats just me.

roger, you speak of SEC, but you must know that SSC with greater flexibility (& strength) will produce more power in conjunction with SEC…

as for ziani, HE CLAIMS THAT HIS 4 HOURS OF STRETCHING A DAY HELPS HIS JUMPING ABILITY, he was born with freakish gifts but, i’m sure at the age he is in now, he has gone a time period without stretching like he does, and experienced some sort of negative effect… if you take his word for it, which i do, there is a reason he stretches 4 hours a day for him, and he has seen benefits from it. most people will never stretch 4 hours a day so, in all honesty, we can only speculate about the exact effects. if he’s lying then that changes everything…

peace

ps: jump soles stink :smiley:

79

[quote]adarqui wrote:

Seph, if we reread your post in question, we see that you do in fact make such claims. You say that flexibility is an important and often overlooked aspect of leaping ability and that Ziani is proof. These are claims, made by you, and neither of them is true.

flexibility has nothing to do with leaping ability?

[/quote]

ERRRRRRRRRR.

Incorrect.

Nobody’s saying it’s not important. Obviously if you’re as tight as a camels arse in a sandstorm you’re not jumping anywhere fast (well, high).

I beleive that the point Adarqui is making is that dedicated flexability training is not important for having a good vert. Obviously this is assuming that good flexability is already present. But I’m sure Adarqui will chime in and correct me if I’m wrong.

80

i think my bad quoting may have confused what i wrote…

this is what roger nelson wrote in response to seph:

in response to someone saying flexibility training is important, he says that is “not true”, which means he doesn’t think it’s important. he is stating that static stretching will reduce the stiffness of the tendons, and in fact reduce the jumping ability. so i take it he is saying that static flexibility training is in fact detrimental.

i will clarify my point… i am saying that, for someone who is looking to reach maximum potential, they must stick to some sort of flexibility/mobility improvement program… whether it be only static stretching post workout, or dynamic stretching pre and AIS/PNF post, flexibility training will give you an added performance boost (2-10% i’ve seen in studies).

so for standing vertical jumping or running vertical jump (where i think flexibility training can improve to a greater degree), if you get a 1-2" improvement over 8 weeks that would be very important. combine that with proper strength/power training and thats when you get your great results.

you can have a good/great vert without stretching, but, i believe strongly that flexibility training will give you that little bit extra to reach maximum potential. i believe it has the same effect on sprint performance as well.

peace hanley