[quote]Desideratus15 wrote:
you really think the quads are the second most important muscle in jumping considering hip extension not knee extension is what takes place immediately after the descent?[/quote]
I never said the quads are the SECOND most important. I’m saying QUADS ARE IMPORTANT.
it’s all about the anconeus…
and his brother…
popliteus…
peace
[quote]Desideratus15 wrote:
Listen, I did not say your quads are insignificant in squatting deadlifting or jumping and running. But, I am saying time is MUCH better spent elsewhere.[/quote]
Hmm, I remember you saying this:
I see some inconsistency here.
Hip flexion is where most of the power of a soccer kick comes from, not knee extension. BTW, quads are also hip flexors.
I made a mistake there. If you have one torn quad, you can jump with your other leg. If your quads from both legs are torn (or surgically removed), yes it’s impossible to jump.
[quote]undeadlift wrote:
Desideratus15 wrote:
Start your pull with the hips higher and hammer on the posterior chain. Then you’ll have no reason to want to use the quads when pulling. Oh yeah, don’t pull in front of mirrors, either. You’ll be too tempted to check out your quads, you narcissistic pansy.
Haha!
No seriously… HAHA!!![/quote]
Just so you know, those weren’t my words, I quoted them from the article, in other words none of that is directed at anyone here.
[quote]undeadlift wrote:
Desideratus15 wrote:
Yup. Any sort of knee extension will involve the quads. No question about that.
Just like any sort of elbow extension will involve the triceps…even though the triceps don’t function at all in a throwing motion which involves elbow extension.
Any sort of elbow extension will require the triceps to contract. At least that’s how I throw. I don’t know anyone who throws through sheer power of the shoulders.[/quote]
It’s not the shoulders power, it’s from the ground to the legs to the trunk.
This isn’t a great video, but you can definitely see the flapping, not contraction, of the triceps.
http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/Side-Fast.mpg (takes a while to load)
[quote]undeadlift wrote:
Desideratus15 wrote:
Listen, I did not say your quads are insignificant in squatting deadlifting or jumping and running. But, I am saying time is MUCH better spent elsewhere.
Hmm, I remember you saying this:
The quads have little bearing on a great vertical jump.
I see some inconsistency here.
Also, just because a movement involves a muscle group does not mean that muscle group is significant. A person kicking a soccer ball for example, knee extension takes place yet 90% of this is from the hip flexors, partly why leg extensions won’t do anything to help you kick a ball a greater distance like some think (I did not say YOU think that).
Hip flexion is where most of the power of a soccer kick comes from, not knee extension. BTW, quads are also hip flexors.
So you’re saying if someone has a torn quad it’s 100% impossible for them to jump at all?
I made a mistake there. If you have one torn quad, you can jump with your other leg. If your quads from both legs are torn (or surgically removed), yes it’s impossible to jump.[/quote]
Sorry I should have said, I did not say the quads are 100% insignificant as I could see insignificant and little bearing being similar. Point I’m making is I feel that somebody could do NO quad dominant movements and still achieve a good leap. I don’t feel somebody could do no posterior chain dominant movements and achieve a great leap.
Rectus femoris is one hip flexor, not all of the quadriceps. We’re still talking about hip flexion, not knee extension (I think we’d agree primary use of quads).
I don’t understand how you can say somebody can’t jump at all with a torn quad, have you ever experienced this? Just because a muscle is torn doesn’t mean it won’t function at all. Are you talking about completely tearing the quad off the bone which I don’t know if that’s possible as I’ve never heard of it, maybe you have? But I do know from experience that even though a ligament, tendon, or muscle is torn does not mean it won’t function AT ALL.
Anyways my whole point with the muscle tear is you can’t use that to gauge how much that muscle group contributes to a movement. You said you’d like to see someone with a torn quad jump only 5% less. Well you’re saying they couldn’t jump at all, does that mean the quads contribute 100% to a vertical jump? Think about it.
I think we beat this to death but good discussion undeadlift. I have a feeling we agree on more than we disagree.
Hope everybody checks out the video, I think it’s interesting and can be eye opening to what goes on beneath the surface.
[quote]Desideratus15 wrote:Huge quads are a hindrance in jumping and sprinting, not a benefit
www.higher-faster-sports.com/SquatsandSpeed.html[/quote]
Yeah, I’ve read it, but you might want to take another look at it, because he’s clearly talking about muscle imbalances. He says quad dominance is detrimental to performance (as is any imbalance), not huge quads. Nowhere in the entire article does he say that big quads will hurt you. In fact, even though quad-dominance will slow your sprinting speed down, it’s actually not even that bad for jumping. Look at me. While I’m becoming more balanced, my vertical is right at 28.5 or 29" but I’d be lucky to run a 5 second 40. So the take-home message is: work your quads.
[quote]Desideratus15 wrote:Westside advocates squatting where the shins stay vertical, this is because the more the knees come forward the more the hamstrings are taken out of the movement and the quads come into the movement. Now don’t you think westside advocates vertical shins and sitting far back because this stretches the hamstrings and glutes more allowing a greater stretch reflex? Don’t you think they know this allows them to use the hams/glutes more than the quads because the hams/glutes are so much stronger thus, a bigger squat and bigger total?
http://www.elitefts.com/documents/texasbbq-2.htm (search hamstring)[/quote]
No. I think squat suits are made to allow the lifter to sit back, and sitting back provides the best pop from the gear. I don’t think muscle recruitment has anything to do with it. Besides, even for raw squatters, who are perfectly balanced around the knee, by the way, the ratio of quadricep to hamstring strength is rarely greater than about 1:.85, and usually about 1:.8. Point? The quads are stronger than the hamstrings. If you have to exclude one of them, it makes more sense to ditch the hamstrings than the quads. (By the way, those Olympic lifters with their big quads and all their front squats sure can’t run or jump, can they?)
However, it has been noted that somehow, magically I presume, all the Westside squatters have large quadricep muscles! Perhaps that fancy technique doesn’t change things quite as much as you think.
They are a higher priority, but that is because the hams/glutes are more often underdeveloped compared to the quads, not because they are more important. To be honest, I’ve never understood the way people like you think. This muscle is more important than that one? OK, if I take either one of them away, (hams or quads), you still can’t squat. So what’s the point? That’s like saying the brain is “more important” than the heart.
First of all, because hip extension is not more important than knee extension (see above, or run your best 40 yard dash, with straight knees the whole way, or test your vertical with straight knees). Second, what slow-twitch muscle group are you talking about? The quadriceps are composed of 4 muscles, some of which are slow-twitch, some of which are fast-twitch. Also, if you’ve never noticed, the quads happen to be HUGE. Do the names VASTUS medialis, VASTUS lateralis, etc. not mean anything to you? Why wouldn’t you want to take advantage of all that muscle?
If we’re going to actually quote Kelly Baggett, then I should step in. Seeing as I’ve been talking to the guy for years, his opinion is that the quads are as important, if not more important than the glutes and hamstrings in a regular old vertical leap or in early acceleration. He says he doesn’t make a point of this because it would cause some people to go overboard on the quads which would impair movement efficiency.
Take it for what it’s worth, but that’s KB’s opinion.
[quote]Desideratus15 wrote:
http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/Side-Fast.mpg (takes a while to load)[/quote]
Interesting. The triceps are relaxed so the arm can serve as a sling. I guess it’s different from what quads experience from jumping.
[quote]Desideratus15 wrote:
Sorry I should have said, I did not say the quads are 100% insignificant as I could see insignificant and little bearing being similar. Point I’m making is I feel that somebody could do NO quad dominant movements and still achieve a good leap. I don’t feel somebody could do no posterior chain dominant movements and achieve a great leap.[/quote]
Yup. Jumping isn’t quad dominant.
I was talking about a muscle that is completely torn, wherein there is no continuity from the origin to the insertion (ex. completely torn tendon, unconnected ligament, etc.). It will still contract (probably your definition of function), but it won’t flex the joint (my definition of function).
I only said that you can’t jump without quads in the initial context of you saying that quads have little bearing on a vertical jump. Even if the rotator cuff provides around 0.1% of the power in a bench press, you can’t bench without it.
I guess. Anyway, you still have rmccart1 to deal with.
I found this post over at the CF forum, I thought it was relevant, sorry I don’t know how to bold anything else I would. The paragraph starting with “From the above” is probably most relevant.
"The concept of Lombard’s Paradox has recently been a point of discussion on the Supertraining List. I thought the group would find this interesting.
This is the post I submitted 6-17-2002.
Here is an excerpt from:
Relative activity of hip and knee extensors in sprinting – Implications for training
Klaus Wiemann and Gunter Tidow
New Studies in Athletics
10(1): 29-49, 1995
from page 32-33:
2.3 The hamstrings as knee extensors
The hamstrings (HS; m. semitendinosus, m. semimembranosus, m. biceps femoris caput longum) also act as extensors at the hip joint. The reason for the hesitant consideration of these muscles as prime movers during the sprint seem to be the fact that the biarticular HS are generally considered not only as hip extensors but also as knee flexors, whereas a knee extension is demanded, during the support phase of the sprint.
However, as early as in 1903, LOMBARD drew attention to the “paradoxical” function of biarticular muscles. Fischer (1927), Molbech (On the paradoxical effect of some two-joint muscles. Acta Morphologica Neerlando-Scandinavica. 6: 171-178, 1965) and Andrews (A general method for determining the functional role of a muscle. J Biomech Eng. 107(4): 348-353) described this paradoxical function in more detail, and Carlsoo & Molbech (The functions of certain two-joint muscles in a closed muscular chain. Acta Morphologica Neerlando-Scandinavica. 6: 377-386, 1966), Gregor et al. (1985) and Andrews (The functional roles of the hamstrings and quadriceps during cycling: Lombard’s Paradox revisited. J Biomech. 20(6): 565-575, 1987) applied this paradox to the function of the hamstrings in cycling.
According to this principle and provided that the free end of the two-link kinematic chain of the leg is guided (inertia, support reaction), the HS have not only a hip extending function but, paradoxically, also a knee extending function. Apart from a short note made by Donskoi (1961), the so-called LOMBARD paradox has been applied only recently to the function of the HS during sprinting (Wiemann 1989, 1990, and 1991).
By means of vector splitting and model formation, it can be shown that according to the LOMBARD paradox and unless the knee angle is smaller than 145 degrees, the HS during the support phase of the sprint bring about both a hip extension and a knee extension. To this extent, the HS organize exactly that movement – namely a synchronous hip and knee extension – which is required in the support phase.
The action of the HS becomes especially clear, if one observes the pelvis from below during a leg position corresponding to the front support in the sprint. One can see that the HS extend, like reins, from the ischial bone to the lower leg, exactly in the direction of the pull of the leg under the pelvis during the support phase.
However, in previous cinematographic and electromyographic studies of sprinting, the HS were either given little attention (Simonsen et al. Activity of mono- and biarticular leg muscles during sprint running. Eur J Appl Physiol. 54: 524-532, 1985; Mero & Komi. Electromyographic activity in sprinting at speeds ranging from sub- maximal to supra-maximal. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 19(3): 266-274, 1987) or they were still treated as knee flexors (Bober et al. The mechanics of the leg swing in running. Techniques in Athletics, Cologne, 7-9 June 1990 Conference proceedings, Vol. 2, pp. 507-510; McClay et al. Muscle activity in running. Biomechanics of Distance Running. Chapter 6: 165-186, 1990). Wood (Optimal performance criteria and limiting factors in sprint running.
New Studies in Athletics. 2: 55-63, 1986) who at least regards the contractility of the HS as the limiting factor in the sprint, also identifies the HS as knee flexors. Even Lemaire & Robertson (Power in Sprinting. Track and Field Journal. 35: 13-17, 1989) do not make a clear statement about the contentious function of the HS in the knee joint, although they recommend that more attention should be paid, during strength training for sprinting to the hip flexors and extensors than to the muscles affecting the knee joint.
Only Wiemann, on the basis of electromyographic pilot study (Wiemann. Die Muskelaktivitat beim Laufen. Leistungssport. 4: 27-31, 1986) and the results of vector analysis (Wiemann 1989 and 1991) postulated the extensor function of the HS at the knee in the support phase of the sprint. Jollenbeck et al. (1990), in experiments, revealed a relationship between the length and force of the HS and sprinting speed.
From the above we can assume that, in sprinting, the movement of the support leg, from the moment the thigh begins to move down from the high knee lift position to the completion of the push-off, is caused by two muscle ‘reins’, namely
(a) by the HS, which form a long biarticular rein from the ischial bone to the lower leg, the m. semitendinosus and the m. semimembranosus forming the inner rein and the m. biceps femoris caput longum forming the outer rein, and
(b) by a short, uniarticular rein running from the pelvis to the thigh, consisting of the GM as the outer traction rope and the AM as the inner traction rope.
During the support phase these muscle loops produce a force which is directed horizontally backward, the reaction to which propels the body forward. However, the backward rotating torque, in the form of the “sprinter’s forward lean”.
It can be assumed that, in the course of the sprint cycle, the activity of the synergistic partners within both reins must be adjusted to one another, in order consistently to direct both the free leg, in the swinging phase, and the knee of the support leg, through the sagittal movement plane.
"
Joe Defranco seems to think the quads are pretty important (from WS4SB1):
“The unilateral exercises I prescribe are mostly quad-dominant exercises. Yes, I said the four-letter word, quad. The quads have gotten a bad rap lately, while the “posterior chain” has taken center stage. We must remember that the quads are extremely important for athletes and you can’t neglect them. The quads are very active when an athlete accelerates into a sprint due to their forward body lean. The quad muscle on the inside of your knee (vastus medialis) also plays a major role in stabilizing the knee.”
Kelly Baggett also says to work the quads:
“Attention should be paid to developing limit strength in the muscles of the quadriceps, glutes, hamstrings and lower back as these are the most important muscle groups for sprinting and jumping. These are your “jump higher and run faster” muscles. The muscles of the hip extensors should be given special attention because they are usually the weak links in the large majority of athletes. These muscles are the glutes, hamstrings, and lower back.”
wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=210
Also in the Vertical Jump Development Bible, Kelly states that the quads are responsible for up to 50% of the power output in a bilateral jump while they play a smaller role in a unilateral jump.
[quote]seph89 wrote:
I keep hearing talks of leg strength, explosive power, squat correlation and so on but not much talk of flexibility. The thing is lots of people underestimate how much flexibility can contribute to agility and leap. You want proof. Look at Kadour Ziani. He is actually 5’ 11" but his secret is that he stretches 4 hours a day as he claimed in an interview. He gets his vertical leap from “elastic energy”. But I’m not saying that strength and squatting doesn’t come into play when it comes to jumping high. It’s all these things that an elite athlete must utilize to rise to the peak and beyond. I am designing a program for just that. Check out my topic “Elite Athlete Workout” and feel free to help me all you can with advice/suggestions on how to make the most efficient workout.
p.s. you want to increase your vertical leap? look into Jumpsoles. ; )[/quote]
Thanks for mentioning flexibility as a factor! I personally can squat 2x bw but can only touch the rim from a standing 2 foot jump. I’m a one foot run jumper always have been, maybe because I block alot of layup attempts while chasing a defender and thats how i’ve approached my jump.(Running and jumping at angles.) I agree that losing fat will obviously help the vert, but since I was a kid I always stretched.Streching is what made my legs strong. Because of stretching at a young age I can still drop into the splits without having done them for years without warming up. Stretching allowed me to squat heavy loads without ever squatting much before in the past. Streches like the splits I think during a game help to explode in a jump. I don’t stretch prior to jumping as I feel the tighter the muscle the more explosive reaction you can get. Also being in an actual competitive game seems to allow me to jump way higher then when I walk into a gym to just jump under a hoop. Probably the adrenaline rush from playing. So if your vert sucks when your “testing it” big deal as long as you can play the angles, react to the offense quickly, and time your jump you’ll stand out as a good jumper. It’s one thing to have a high vert but if you don’t know how to use it to swat a guy then it’s shit. Look at Adrian’s 66 in vert jump on you tube for example…is this guy ever mentioned as a great football player? is he going to Hawaii? No he’s not a overall awesome defensive player, but probably the highest jumping defensive player in a controlled environment.
[quote]undeadlift wrote:
Desideratus15 wrote:
Listen, I did not say your quads are insignificant in squatting deadlifting or jumping and running. But, I am saying time is MUCH better spent elsewhere.
Hmm, I remember you saying this:
The quads have little bearing on a great vertical jump.
I see some inconsistency here.
Also, just because a movement involves a muscle group does not mean that muscle group is significant. A person kicking a soccer ball for example, knee extension takes place yet 90% of this is from the hip flexors, partly why leg extensions won’t do anything to help you kick a ball a greater distance like some think (I did not say YOU think that).
Hip flexion is where most of the power of a soccer kick comes from, not knee extension. BTW, quads are also hip flexors.
So you’re saying if someone has a torn quad it’s 100% impossible for them to jump at all?
I made a mistake there. If you have one torn quad, you can jump with your other leg. If your quads from both legs are torn (or surgically removed), yes it’s impossible to jump.[/quote]
Can I just put an end to the whole if the quad is torn you can/can’t still jump bullshit? I was in the middle of a slant about 5 years back and boom my quad took a complete shit, did I jump to catch the ball? ???..NO! immediately after my quad took a dump my entire leg locked up straight and I fucking face planted on the turf. SO NO YOU CAN’T JUMP WITHOUT YOUR QUADS YOU WILL TURF CHIN!
[quote]Jack Squat wrote:
undeadlift wrote:
Desideratus15 wrote:
Listen, I did not say your quads are insignificant in squatting deadlifting or jumping and running. But, I am saying time is MUCH better spent elsewhere.
Hmm, I remember you saying this:
The quads have little bearing on a great vertical jump.
I see some inconsistency here.
Also, just because a movement involves a muscle group does not mean that muscle group is significant. A person kicking a soccer ball for example, knee extension takes place yet 90% of this is from the hip flexors, partly why leg extensions won’t do anything to help you kick a ball a greater distance like some think (I did not say YOU think that).
Hip flexion is where most of the power of a soccer kick comes from, not knee extension. BTW, quads are also hip flexors.
So you’re saying if someone has a torn quad it’s 100% impossible for them to jump at all?
I made a mistake there. If you have one torn quad, you can jump with your other leg. If your quads from both legs are torn (or surgically removed), yes it’s impossible to jump.
Can I just put an end to the whole if the quad is torn you can/can’t still jump bullshit? I was in the middle of a slant about 5 years back and boom my quad took a complete shit, did I jump to catch the ball? ???..NO! immediately after my quad took a dump my entire leg locked up straight and I fucking face planted on the turf. SO NO YOU CAN’T JUMP WITHOUT YOUR QUADS YOU WILL TURF CHIN![/quote]
Oh yea and after that game I had to meet a date for the first time at a bowling alley of all places. I could barely walk none the less do the whole bowling stride. I was sucking down so many morgan/cokes my date asked if I was an alcoholic. Oh and a skinny ass cowboy wanted to fight me and as bad as I wanted to cave his 125lb rodeo ass in right there I had to remain calm. A torn quad will 1. not allow you to jump, 2, give you turf chin, 3, notget you a second date, 4, allow a 125lb rodeo cowboy to kick your ass if you decide to fight him.
This thread has gotten completely retarded. If you don’t think strong quads are helpful in running fast or jumping high than I wonder if you’ve ever even played a sport in your life. Is there a point where you need to be worrying about strength ratios and such?
Yeah probably but we have people who can’t even dunk a basketball worrying about exact strength ratios when at that intermediate level both your strength and your speed-strength levels are in a state of flux such that it would be impossible to even pinpoint such a ratio. I think some people need to be worrying more about head injuries than torn quads.
BTW, Adrian Wilson has been to Pro Bowl and also set an NFL record for a defensive back by recording 8 sacks in a season.
In a last-ditch effort to salvage this thread:
Can anybody here actually provide some examples for what they have used to increase their vertical jumps and/or the jumps of others? That would be a lot better than all of this pointless mental masturbation.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
This thread has gotten completely retarded. If you don’t think strong quads are helpful in running fast or jumping high than I wonder if you’ve ever even played a sport in your life. Is there a point where you need to be worrying about strength ratios and such?
Yeah probably but we have people who can’t even dunk a basketball worrying about exact strength ratios when at that intermediate level both your strength and your speed-strength levels are in a state of flux such that it would be impossible to even pinpoint such a ratio. I think some people need to be worrying more about head injuries than torn quads.
BTW, Adrian Wilson has been to Pro Bowl and also set an NFL record for a defensive back by recording 8 sacks in a season.
In a last-ditch effort to salvage this thread:
Can anybody here actually provide some examples for what they have used to increase their vertical jumps and/or the jumps of others? That would be a lot better than all of this pointless mental masturbation.[/quote]
Good post.
In my case all that was neccessary to increase my vert was to improve my lower body strength. Over approximately 1 year I went from half squating 60kg for 5 reps to a full squat 1rm of 105kg (still extremely weak) at 6’4 187lb. This was enough to increase my vert to 29 inches (head measured) If i was using the same testing method that most people seem to use I would probably get a reading of over 30 inches.
I didn’t measure my vert beforehand, but I went from not even being able to touch the rim with a running jump, to being able to dunk. Im guessing my vert probably increased by around 8 inches. The only regular exercise i did was going to the gym 3 times per week and I did no specific jump training. My goal is to get a legit 35 inch vert by the end of 2008.
For people who are extremely weak, just increasing their lower body strength can cause large increases in jumping ability.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
This thread has gotten completely retarded. If you don’t think strong quads are helpful in running fast or jumping high than I wonder if you’ve ever even played a sport in your life. Is there a point where you need to be worrying about strength ratios and such?
Yeah probably but we have people who can’t even dunk a basketball worrying about exact strength ratios when at that intermediate level both your strength and your speed-strength levels are in a state of flux such that it would be impossible to even pinpoint such a ratio. I think some people need to be worrying more about head injuries than torn quads.
BTW, Adrian Wilson has been to Pro Bowl and also set an NFL record for a defensive back by recording 8 sacks in a season.
In a last-ditch effort to salvage this thread:
Can anybody here actually provide some examples for what they have used to increase their vertical jumps and/or the jumps of others? That would be a lot better than all of this pointless mental masturbation.[/quote]
By far the best post yet in this thread. Yes, quads are important, but that’s about the end of it. They don’t usually need any special attention, and they’re only one part of the chain.
As far as increasing vertical, I know I’m frictional/concentric strength dominant, so going on a 3 week cycle where I did very little resistance training and focused on depth landings and box squat jumps one day and depth jumps and sprints another put a couple or 3 inches on mine.