Rate My Routine (Recovering from Injury)

[flipburry]

Hello, hopefully this is in the right forum, if not, I’m sorry.

So in May of last year, I injured my shoulder, probably due to benching.
I’ve been in physiotherapy since then, on and off medication as well, and currently waiting for an appointment to see if there’s alternate treatment I can undergo.

I have come to the point where I can do the main compound exercises with very light weights and not to fatigue my muscles (hence no sets/reps as of right now).

The idea, with what I put together here is to do the normal full body compounds in an alternating A, B, A one week and B, A, B one week type deal. Standard.
But I wanted to throw in accessory exercises as active rest days, with a great deal of them helping out the rotator cuff where a lot of my issues seem to stem from.

Please let me know if I’m not making any sense, I have a hard time explaining this.
I do have training experience prior to this, but not a lot with full body programs, so I am still learning all of that. But yes, this is mostly physiotherapy focused, along with band work that I do everyday (which is another reason I wanted to split it up like this, and admittedly, had I don’t everything in each session, there would’ve been less accessory work)

Thanks in advance

[chaoshander]

Disregarding your injury, your choice in quality of lifts is great.

I dont have much to add to this, programming wise, but I was dealing with pretty serious shoulder pain, and if I had any 2 cents to add, double (or triple) down on your pulling. If you’re benching, super set it with barbell rows. If you’re pressing overhead, superset it with pull ups. If you’re sitting around with your thumb up your ass, do more rows.

[flipburry]

Thank you man, I appreciate that!
It’s funny, up until recently, I’d read you should keep pulling and pushing even, so that’s what I had done before for probably a year before my injury, and just recently, I found sooo many people suggesting a 2:1 or even a 3:1 pulling to pushing ration. Could this possibly be what wore out my shoulders, not doing as much pulling as I should have?

If you don’t mind me asking, how did you go about dealing with your shoulder injury to get better? This bastard is taking a hell of a long time to heal lol

[flipburry]

Anybody have any other suggestions here?

[flappinit]

Even if you’re keeping it light, all those pressing exercises might be a bit much. The hardest part about injuries is giving yourself adequate rest. I wouldn’t do any more than 4x a week, the other 2 should be conditioning and band work, and it is okay to do some unilateral shoulder work on your strong arm - believe it or not, your weak arm can benefit from this.

[chaoshander]

Well the rule of thumb is:

What does your average person do on a day to day basis?

Sit down
Play video games
Stock shelves
Hammer nails
Sit on a computer for hours typing
Run a cash register
Taking notes leaning over a desk

What do all of those have in common? Having your arms out in front of you. Typically in a suspended, activated position.

Now stack that on top of the average sedentary life style of sitting down and ultimately slouching, drawing your shoulders forward, and in.

Now stack a shit load of weight on those already abused muscles, and repeatedly do the same thing you do 16 hours a day, but under load.

Now think of everything you do that involves pulling your shoulders back… spoilers, there isn’t a lot.

So in short, absolutely, not doing enough pulling is about 90% what caused your shoulder go all gimpy.

As for pain relief, mine actually isn’t healed, but it’s a hell of a lot better. My main routine is:

Anytime I do a press, i superset it with a pulling excersise in the same plane. No exceptions. You can choose to try to do as much weight, or do more reps, but try to keep the workload logically similar.

I do pull ups all the time. I mean, anytime I think about it. Probably 25 or more sets a week. (I’m also trying to get better at pull ups through repetition, so this is a 2 for 1)

I’m not a huge advocate of foam rolling, but I’ve been rolling my upper back every day for a year, and this kind sets my spine in a more neutral position to lift in, which keeps my shoulders back.

Dislocates. Take a long bar, (shower rod, hanging shelf rod, broomstick, whatever.) Grab it, lock out your arms, and roll your arms from your pelvis to your ass over your head, without bending at the elbow. Try to nudge your arms closer just the smallest amount everytime you do it (about 10 reps). I do these every day, they really help open up the shoulder. Also, watch your wrists, you can hurt them if you’re not careful.

[chaoshander]

I’m not a huge fan of rehab. It’s boring, it’s hard to stick to, it burns time (which I dont have a lot of) and all around sucks. This is kind of what I’ve come up with that isn’t terribly boring, and keeps me under the barbell.

Also look into miofascial release on your pectoral muscles. Its lot to dive into, but if your chest is chronically tight, it might need some direct work.

[flipburry]

I’m actually using a tennis ball carefully for this, but I’m also as stated above, waiting on a new doctor’s appointment for further treatment since this has been going on for such a long time.

[flipburry]

That makes a lot of sense, I’m all new to full body programs, I have done P/P/L for quite a few years now, but I think full body for a while is going to be the way to go.
I’m still trying to workout getting enough frequency in the muscles through the week.
If you know of any articles or youtube videos explaining it pretty well, I’d definitely love those.

At this point, should I worry about my weak points you think or just focus on doing a standard A, B alternation with the compound lifts (plus all of my band work I do a couple times a day, a lot of external rotation)
And then on accessory days, focus on more pulling movements and of course, working more with the external rotation and mobility of my shoulders?

My slowst growing parts are my shoulders and arms (especially biceps), and then the chest.
So my concern is the whole frequency/volume situation with that, while still adding more pulling movements as I’ve now learnt. I’m still trying to learn how to set up a decent full body routine clearly.

I feel like my reply here is very scattered, if it is, I’m sorry, I hope you still understand what I’m trying to say, if not, just ask me and I’ll explain myself better lol

[flipburry]

Oh yeah rehab fucking sucked in the beginning especially, I had to the most boring and tedious exercises for it for the longest time, like pushing my arms out against a wall for resistance and stuff like that, goddamn it sucked lol very demotivating. I’m so lucky I’ve finally come to the point where I can at least use very light weights on ‘normal’ exercises, it at least feels like I’m getting closer to normal now.

[flipburry]

I do my band work everyday, usually twice a day, it focuses mostly on the external rotation.
But you’re right, I’ve come to realize now that the pressing is a bit much, it’s just those are my lagging muscle parts, so I think I’ve gotten a bit too focused on those, forgetting to have more pulls.
Even when I did P/P/L for a few years, I was under the impression that the pushing and pulling movements should stay even, didn’t realize up until now, that that’s not the case!

[flipburry]

So I’ve made some adjustments to my program. Please keep in mind, I am absolutely new to 3 day splits (as far as the compounds go, and especially with adding the accessory days to add some frequency but also aid in my external rotation)
Let me know if it looks a bit better, or even worse, than before. I would really like to get some constructive criticism to learn this stuff a bit better

Edit: Are dumbbell swings worth throwing into the accessories somewhere? I personally haven’t done them before.

[chaoshander]

It’s a lot to soak in dude, I still feel like my questions are all over the place. Let’s see… as for videos…

Brian Alsruhe has phenomenal content in general. And also has interesting ideas on programming (including incorporating weak points) (he also is coming out of the other side of a rotator cuff tear, so pretty relevant)

Alan Thrall has great “general” programming tips (provided you can read through his sarcasm) I’m not a huge fan of Starting Strength, it’s just boring to me, but his other videos are good.

Jeff Cavaliere is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to rehab.

They all upload regularly, and you could spend weeks going through all their content.

As for weak points… that’s up to you. I generally will spend 10 or so weeks slamming out the main lifts, under different programs, with various progression schemes, and incorporate variations as “assistance work”, then I’ll rotate to using the “assistance work” as my main lift, and hit it hard and heavy for about 10 weeks, while banging out my main lifts under a lighter load to stay familiar. Just feel it out. If you’re making steady progression, dont fuck with it. If you’re having a hard time recovering, feeling aches and pains coming on, or just arent seeing much improvement, it may be time to change it up.

As for volume/frequency… its pretty simple:

Big groups (pecs, lats, quads, etc):
Dont need as much frequency week to week. You can really abuse them on the proper day, and give them plenty of time to heal (think banging out a 5x5 on bench, some assistance weighted dumbell press, and flys on the same day, very doable, but you’ll be sure for a few days)

Small groups (bis, tris, delts, calves, etc):
Cant take as much abuse day to day, which ultimately leads to them healing quicker, so you can hit them several times a week. (Think a 3x8 on barbell curls, and a cluster set with hammer curls, sure, you won’t be able to lift your arms when you’re done, but they MIGHT hurt for a day)

(This is kind of an “idiot’s guide” oversimplified explanation, but it’s a good base to work with)

Just a side note, your bicep connects directly into your shoulder, and could aggravate the symptoms. It did for me, and I’ve pretty much dropped all direct bicep work. Maybe not, but just something to watch.

As for rehab, I’m a firm believer in “pushing through it”. But not in a dumb way. I think taking too much time off will exasperate any injury you have. Give it a short time, go see a specialist if necessary, and immediately get in the routine of restoring proper movement and ROM. My back was completely shot for years. I couldn’t pick 135 off the ground. I decided to nut up and started deadlifting with aggressively perfect form, and went up in weight slow, and I just hit a personal PR of 375 x 5 beltless. It’s not that impressive, but i have virtually no back pain anymore. (Kiss my ass chiropractor).

My way of thought is by no means the right way or only way, and personally I think people make it WAY more complicated than it needs to be. Get in the gym, zone in, lift the fucking weight. Stay consistent, and smart, and dont forget the weak points. The numbers and size will go up.

[flipburry]

I’ve never heard of Brian Alsruhe before, so I’m going to look him up.
Jeff’s has great content, I agree, Alan I haven’t seen much of but will definitely be watching more of his videos from now on.

That’s a good idea about switching around the assistance work and main lifts, I’m going to start implementing things like that, especially when I can lift normal weights again, but even as I prepare myself for that.
That’s something I’ve learnt with this injury now, I’m not scared to try out different things, the last couple years I’ve been on P/P/L (6 days on 1 day off) and didn’t switch around too many things, was too scared to because I was seeing pretty good progress with it, then it slowed down and eventually fucked me.

Good call on the biceps, didn’t think of that, I’ll take it easy with that then and stick to the compounds.

That’s the thing, with just pushing through it, I’ve never gone through an injury like this so I’ve been so scared to push myself because I don’t want to make it worse, if my shoulder feels a bit off when I do rotator cuff work before I do my normal movements, I skip those and just do more band work to get blood flowing that way. Sometimes I’ll feel a bit of a ‘something’ during say a row or dumbbell bench, but then I just re-adjust myself and I’m fine, if not, then skip it.
Congrats on your deadlifting, that’s still really good, AND pain free, even better! Keep it up!

I’ve done physiotherapy for a while, acupuncture a few times, and then I’ve gotten this anti inflammatory gel, all of which has helped to an extent. Then I was sent to the orthopedics, he told me ‘just do some external rotation for a few months, that worked for me when I was younger’ and left the room, that was that. I spent 3 hours getting to that appointment.
So now I’m waiting for a doctor’s appointment to open to discuss further treatment I can try along side my physio lol
Just don’t want to fuck it up worse since it’s the shoulder. But I’m starting to definitely think I didn’t do enough pulling before, especially since my back and legs are what grows the fastest on me, I focused too much on the pushing movements.

[chaoshander]

Definitely dont feel alone in the shoulder department. I literally dont know a single person (irl) that hasn’t had some short of shoulder injury. It’s just the state of mind with younger dudes. “How much do you bench” is pretty much the only thing you hear for years.

Also dont be afraid to dial it down a bit, youd be surprised how much you actually need to lift in order to see progress. In high school I lifted for 1 1/2 hours in weightlifting, I lifted for another hour after school in our gym, and then lifted some more when I got home (chest/legs alternating every day, turned into a lot of chest days and the occasional leg day). Now I’m 4 days a week, under an hour, (deadlift/bench/squat/OHP) and lift more than I did then. 6 days a week is pretty intense. Doable, but it’s a lot.

With your biceps, just feel it out. Just because your shoulder hurts doesn’t mean it’s the bicep, but it is something to be cautious of.

Regardless, hopefully you can get that piece of shit shoulder back into prime condition. They’re finicky little bastards. Good luck!

[flipburry]

I’ve heard it’s a pretty common one lol I never ego lifted though since I have my equipment at home, I think I was just being stupid and didn’t really take it too seriously, it just started with a little bit of pressure after I benched for a few months, then when I de-loaded is when all hell broke loose.
It was alright, doing PPL 6 days a week, it didn’t take too long in the morning tbh, and it was fun. But now that I’ve learnt about doing more pulling movements after thinking it should be equal, it’s a real game changer lol
Does horizontal/vertical pulling matter or just pull in general?

Thank you, I appreciate all your advice, it’s been really helping me a LOT

[chaoshander]

Things that weren’t stupid, and made progress, can quickly become really stupid unintentionally; with an increase in frequency and load and all that. Adaptation is the name of the game my dude.

Vertical pulling… definitely not as important as horizontal pulling, (just due to the lack overhead abuse in most people’s lives) but it’s still super important. Personally I hate accessory isolation fluff, and pull ups bang out grip, back, and biceps in one go. It’s just more efficient to me.

I guess I could have started this whole conversation with this, but are you trying to get big, or strong?

[flipburry]

You’re right, I did switch it up pretty abruptly. I got an appointment with a new physiotherapist on Monday, so hopefully that’ll help me with the last little bit of this injury.

That makes sense, the horizontal pulling. Yeah isolation exercises get boring quick, and lifting heavy weights just feels way better in general too.

Well after this injury I’m going to be focusing on strength, before I was focusing on size.

[BReddy]

Any client of mine with a shoulder history and I’m very careful about Back Squatting. Bringing the elbows behind the shoulder is a common way to tick off a sensitive shoulder. For instance, the most common time people have pain bench pressing is at the bottom of the motion. Same deal for push-ups.

Ideally, you go with a Safety Bar Squat, though many don’t have access to one.

Next may be a Front Squat, though if the shoulder is very sensitive, having a barbell lay nearly directly on top of the joint isn’t a good move either.

Next, there is a Goblet Squat, but that’ll usually fatigue the arms before the legs.

Finally, you can go to Walking Lunges holding DBs or other more single leg oriented work. Or of course, Leg Pressing.

[BReddy]

While this is very common view, it’s not the right way to think about the shoulder.

A lack of upward rotation, that is, a lacking ability to bring the shoulder forward and upward is the most common cause of shoulder pain. After all, most people’s shoulder problems revolve around shoulder flexion i.e. bringing the arm forward and or upward. Such as coming out of the bottom of a bench press, or raising their arms in an overhead press.

The way to view daily life is, while scapular abduction (accompanies upward rotation) can be common, it is not a common issue in dynamic activity.

Meanwhile, scapular anterior tilt is very common in daily life and can be problematic in movement.

Red = anterior tilt; Green = posterior tilt.

As a person caves their chest, they anteriorly tilt the shoulder blades:

What people generally have too much of is scapular anterior tilt not scapular abduction / upward rotation.

By focusing on pulling the shoulder blades down and back you can accidentally double down on the muscles which cause anterior tilt. For instance, pulling involves the biceps. The biceps anteriorly tilt the shoulder blade. (Not to mention most people don’t lack biceps work in their programming!)

In fact, many of my clients with a strong lifting history will look like this:

Where the elbow is behind the shoulder, meaning the shoulder is in extension:

If you’re holding a certain static position at rest, chances are you do that motion a good amount. That is, this person, and again, many with a strong lifting history, will not hold their arms in front of them at rest. Meaning they are actually working their arms a great deal into extension, not flexion, and pulling exercises involve working extension.

The easiest way to view this is if a person is having issues moving their shoulder forward and upward, you don’t make that better by pulling the shoulders down and or back. Just try to raise your arms overhead while pinching the shoulder blades together. It’ll probably feel terrible. The shoulder blades need to move apart in this motion.

What you’re really getting at is the average person needs to tilt their shoulders back. Not pull them back (retraction). You can fully posteriorly tilt your shoulder blades without at all retracting them. But cueing someone to “pull the shoulders back” much more often causes retraction than posterior tilting.