Quitting Curls

GhostNtheSystem · December 1, 2006, 12:54am

[quote]Professor X wrote:
GhostNtheSystem wrote:
Alright, I’ve decided not to quit curls. Even if I am at a plateau apparently there’s no better option. So worst case scenario I keep curling and never get any stronger, but at least I won’t get weaker.

If you aren’t getting stronger, unless you are some decade long veteran at the peak of his potential, it is a much greater chance that you are either not eating enough, not allowing your body enough time to grow in between workouts, or you are completely clueless about how to train.

For most of these guys, I would bet food is the primary issue and why you are making no progress.

How much weight have you gained? how much have you increased in strength and size in your legs, chest, or back? You are just getting gigantic all over except for your biceps?

You weigh how much?[/quote]

I weigh 185. And food may be an issue because I don’t want to gain any weight. I want strength gains without the weight gains since my primary goals include weight dependent body weight movements such as iron cross and planche on still rings. I’m not sure how most gymnasts gain their strength without letting their weight go up, but I imagine my diet could use some tweaking.

Modi · December 1, 2006, 1:05am

[quote]hueyOT wrote:

Huey, I think you misinterpreted my question. I was not asking how to perform an exercise or how to fully activate a muscle.

I was pointing out the fact that your terminology is wrong. You don’t limit “biceps flexion” by focusing on your lats. Biceps flexion is a measurement of how many degrees the forearm is bent towards the upper arm.

I appreciate the advice, but I am more concerned that you are giving out advice without having a full knowledge of anatomical terms.

if you need me to clarify, all i’m trying to say is that you minimize/limit biceps flexion IN COMPARISON to the more commonly used incorrect methods of performing back exercises. my terminology is correct. biceps flexion is minimized when performing lat-dominant pulls PROPERLY as opposed to the more commonly seen IMPROPER techniques.

is the flexion of the elbow during a row or chin up? of course. is it ideal to reduce this flexion as much as possible to add the emphasis of the exercise to the lats? yes. that’s what i meant.

what i forgot to do was indicate a reference point to which i was making the comparison.

i should’ve said: ‘minimized elbow flexion when COMPARED to more commonly performed incorrect technique’.
[/quote]

Either I can’t understand what you are typing, or your terminology is wrong.

The closer your forearm is to your humerus, the more biceps flexion (elbow flexion) you have. I don’t care how many fibers are contracted, how forceful the contraction was, or how it even got there. You can use your other arm to manually move your forearm to touch your bicep, and it is still fully flexed. Don’t confuse the anatomical term FLEXION with ACTIVATION, they are not one and the same.

I am NOT talking about activation here. Not about how to engage your lats vs your biceps. This is a much simpler concept. If your elbow is completely bent it is flexed, if it is straight, it is extended. They are pretty simple terms. You don’t flex a muscle, you contract it.

Gl_itch_e · December 1, 2006, 1:59am

[quote]GhostNtheSystem wrote:
Professor X wrote:

You weigh how much?

I weigh 185. And food may be an issue because I don’t want to gain any weight. I want strength gains without the weight gains since my primary goals include weight dependent body weight movements such as iron cross and planche on still rings. I’m not sure how most gymnasts gain their strength without letting their weight go up, but I imagine my diet could use some tweaking.
[/quote]
how much are you able to curl atm then? I dont think many people can curl much more than half their bodyweight with proper form… . in which case the only way to up your strength would be with weight gain. …

alternately if your training your biceps for strength maybe its lack of strength in the triceps and back thats actually stopping you from getting stronger in the biceps. …

what are some of your lift numbers like?

Tiribulus · December 1, 2006, 2:25am

[quote]GhostNtheSystem wrote:
I weigh 185. And food may be an issue because I don’t want to gain any weight. I want strength gains without the weight gains since my primary goals include weight dependent body weight movements such as iron cross and planche on still rings. I’m not sure how most gymnasts gain their strength without letting their weight go up, but I imagine my diet could use some tweaking.
[/quote]

I am no gymnast, but if you are planning on getting MUCH stronger while gaining LITTLE weight you are in the middle of an exercise in frustration. Lemme throw this at you somewhat along the lines you are talking.

When I first started training the first time I could not do one single dip. I mean not one, period. After gaining 40-45 pounds I could do 10 full with a pair of 45’s on the belt. Think about it. Don’t get discouraged man, the answers are there, but it takes time to learn to listen to your body.

However you MUST eat. And please, PLEASE don’t worry about gaining lean weight. By that I mean if you have it in the back of your head that “I don’t wanna gain weight, I don’t wanna gain weight” you are wasting your time. You will gain nothing including strength, by having yourself mentally malprogrammed right from the start.

Professor_X · December 1, 2006, 4:36am

[quote]GhostNtheSystem wrote:

I weigh 185. And food may be an issue because I don’t want to gain any weight. I want strength gains without the weight gains since my primary goals include weight dependent body weight movements such as iron cross and planche on still rings. I’m not sure how most gymnasts gain their strength without letting their weight go up, but I imagine my diet could use some tweaking.
[/quote]

…and you have been convinced by whom that you will just make drastic strength gains with no increase in body weight from here on out? Most gymnasts, while possibly not making gains in pure body weight a goal, also are carrying more muscle mass than most of the population.

Genetics also play a factor along with the fact that they have been doing gymnastics since they could walk. That is all their bodies are used to. Unless your training has been the same your entire life, to now expect some massive increase in strength with no lean body mass gain at all just is NOT realistic. It would seem your body is screaming this to you. Perhaps you would like to finally listen before you waste too much more time with your exercise in futility.

GhostNtheSystem · December 1, 2006, 11:26am

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:
GhostNtheSystem wrote:
Professor X wrote:

You weigh how much?

I weigh 185. And food may be an issue because I don’t want to gain any weight. I want strength gains without the weight gains since my primary goals include weight dependent body weight movements such as iron cross and planche on still rings. I’m not sure how most gymnasts gain their strength without letting their weight go up, but I imagine my diet could use some tweaking.

how much are you able to curl atm then? I dont think many people can curl much more than half their bodyweight with proper form… . in which case the only way to up your strength would be with weight gain. …

alternately if your training your biceps for strength maybe its lack of strength in the triceps and back thats actually stopping you from getting stronger in the biceps. …

what are some of your lift numbers like?
[/quote]

For curls I generally do 6-8 reps with 50’s and my 1RM as somewhere around 60 or 65/arm. As far as triceps go, I do mostly weighted dips and planche holds. My weighted dips are 5 reps of 135lbs. I also work iron cross holds and currently I can hold about 135lbs (ultimate goal being 185 - my body weight).

I do take in protein supplements and I eat a lot of ground beef and rice. I try to keep my diet clean and I would estimate on average I’m pulling in 3000-3500 calories/day. I try to keep my cardio up too with jogs 2-3x/week for about 6 miles each. I still have some fat around my midsection I’m trying to burn off.

I know to gain strength, you’re going to gain muscle mass. My idea is to burn some of this excess fat while gaining some muscle mass and hoping it will balance out on the scales. Whether or not that will work in practice I don’t know.

Professor_X · December 1, 2006, 11:56am

[quote]GhostNtheSystem wrote:
For curls I generally do 6-8 reps with 50’s and my 1RM as somewhere around 60 or 65/arm. As far as triceps go, I do mostly weighted dips and planche holds. My weighted dips are 5 reps of 135lbs. I also work iron cross holds and currently I can hold about 135lbs (ultimate goal being 185 - my body weight).

I do take in protein supplements and I eat a lot of ground beef and rice. I try to keep my diet clean and I would estimate on average I’m pulling in 3000-3500 calories/day. I try to keep my cardio up too with jogs 2-3x/week for about 6 miles each. I still have some fat around my midsection I’m trying to burn off.

I know to gain strength, you’re going to gain muscle mass. My idea is to burn some of this excess fat while gaining some muscle mass and hoping it will balance out on the scales. Whether or not that will work in practice I don’t know.[/quote]

“I can’t gain strength or muscle mass”.

“are you eating enough to gain anything at all?”

“Nope. I’m hoping that my body magically gains muscular body weight while I DON’T feed it enough to gain anything and that it also loses an equal amount of body fat while I don’t decrease calories or expenditure to actually lose weight”

“Oh, so you’re doing this the hard way that few people see results with?”

“yep”

Zap_Branigan · December 1, 2006, 12:13pm

If you are trying to gain strength to be a gymnast extra bodyweight probably won’t help.

Most gymnasts are probably lighter than you are.

I don’t think curls are the solution, practicing gymnastics is the solution.

Of course good gymnasts are freaks of nature. If you were not born with the body type you are going to be disappointed.

Tiribulus · December 1, 2006, 12:33pm

I’m starting to envision some of these guys standing on a chair with a bat, flailing away at this lean muscle mass that’s been chasing them around the room. As if it were so easy to grow that positive measures must be taken to avoid it.

Trust me friend, you will have more than enough fair warning before you ever get too big, whatever exactly that means. You won’t wake up one morning weighted down with 100 new pounds of sneaky muscle.

Modi · December 1, 2006, 2:42pm

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I’m starting to envision some of these guys standing on a chair[/quote] blindfolded [quote]with a bat, flailing away at this lean muscle mass that’s been chasing them around the room. As if it were so easy to grow that positive measures must be taken to avoid it.[/quote]

Tirib, you left out a key word there, I thought I’d add it in there. (it’s much deeper than at first glance)

[quote]
Trust me friend, you will have more than enough fair warning before you ever get too big, whatever exactly that means. You won’t wake up one morning weighted down with 100 new pounds of sneaky muscle.[/quote]

If anyone here accidently stumbles upon the secret to waking up one morning with too much added muscle, it would make a great thread, probably even a 5 star thread…

Scott_aka_Rice · December 1, 2006, 3:08pm

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
You won’t wake up one morning weighted down with 100 new pounds of sneaky muscle.[/quote]

That’s what you think. He’s exactly 100lbs of muscle.

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1336913

GhostNtheSystem · December 1, 2006, 4:05pm

[quote]Professor X wrote:
GhostNtheSystem wrote:
For curls I generally do 6-8 reps with 50’s and my 1RM as somewhere around 60 or 65/arm. As far as triceps go, I do mostly weighted dips and planche holds. My weighted dips are 5 reps of 135lbs. I also work iron cross holds and currently I can hold about 135lbs (ultimate goal being 185 - my body weight).

I do take in protein supplements and I eat a lot of ground beef and rice. I try to keep my diet clean and I would estimate on average I’m pulling in 3000-3500 calories/day. I try to keep my cardio up too with jogs 2-3x/week for about 6 miles each. I still have some fat around my midsection I’m trying to burn off.

I know to gain strength, you’re going to gain muscle mass. My idea is to burn some of this excess fat while gaining some muscle mass and hoping it will balance out on the scales. Whether or not that will work in practice I don’t know.

“I can’t gain strength or muscle mass”.

“are you eating enough to gain anything at all?”

“Nope. I’m hoping that my body magically gains muscular body weight while I DON’T feed it enough to gain anything and that it also loses an equal amount of body fat while I don’t decrease calories or expenditure to actually lose weight”

“Oh, so you’re doing this the hard way that few people see results with?”

“yep”[/quote]

Thanks for your help ProfX, but it won’t be required anymore. I’ve posted the number of calories I’m taking in which is at or greater than my maintenance number. If you had dietary suggestions, you should have made them. Instead all you post are flames and insults. My posts are for actual help. If you have no desire to help and you only wish to go on emotional rants, please refrain.

GhostNtheSystem · December 1, 2006, 4:09pm

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
If you are trying to gain strength to be a gymnast extra bodyweight probably won’t help.

Most gymnasts are probably lighter than you are.

I don’t think curls are the solution, practicing gymnastics is the solution.

Of course good gymnasts are freaks of nature. If you were not born with the body type you are going to be disappointed.
[/quote]

Yeah, I definitely don’t have the body type to be a competative gymnast. I’m 5’10 and 185 and most male gymnasts are 5’7 or shorter and probably weigh more like 160. But that’s alright because I’m not aiming for competition.

You may be right though about the curls. Perhaps it doesn’t matter if my numbers aren’t going up. I might should shift to more bodyweight exercises. Time will tell.

Tiribulus · December 1, 2006, 5:35pm

[quote]Modi wrote:
If anyone here accidently stumbles upon the secret to waking up one morning with too much added muscle, it would make a great thread, probably even a 5 star thread…
[/quote]

Not to mention secure your financial independence.

@ Ghostinthesystem:

At bottom, after every single topic possible has been discussed, self induced physical enhancement of any kind happens as a result of 3 things. Controlled progressive overload, fuel and recovery. Somewhere in these three very basic areas lie your answers.

3500 (at the high end) calories a day for a guy running 18 miles a week, never mind any other kind of training? I don’t think anybody,s flaming you, but there is no mystery here. That is not enough food for what you’re doing. At bare minimum you need to severely cut back on your running if you plan to get much stronger even if you do increase your food. You’re likely sinking a large part of your recovery into the running.

Somebody may have said all this already, forgive the redundancy if they did. I’m in the middle of some other stuff.

sasquatch · December 1, 2006, 8:41pm

[quote]GhostNtheSystem wrote:
Professor X wrote:
GhostNtheSystem wrote:
For curls I generally do 6-8 reps with 50’s and my 1RM as somewhere around 60 or 65/arm. As far as triceps go, I do mostly weighted dips and planche holds. My weighted dips are 5 reps of 135lbs. I also work iron cross holds and currently I can hold about 135lbs (ultimate goal being 185 - my body weight).

I do take in protein supplements and I eat a lot of ground beef and rice. I try to keep my diet clean and I would estimate on average I’m pulling in 3000-3500 calories/day. I try to keep my cardio up too with jogs 2-3x/week for about 6 miles each. I still have some fat around my midsection I’m trying to burn off.

I know to gain strength, you’re going to gain muscle mass. My idea is to burn some of this excess fat while gaining some muscle mass and hoping it will balance out on the scales. Whether or not that will work in practice I don’t know.

“I can’t gain strength or muscle mass”.

“are you eating enough to gain anything at all?”

“Nope. I’m hoping that my body magically gains muscular body weight while I DON’T feed it enough to gain anything and that it also loses an equal amount of body fat while I don’t decrease calories or expenditure to actually lose weight”

“Oh, so you’re doing this the hard way that few people see results with?”

“yep”

Thanks for your help ProfX, but it won’t be required anymore. I’ve posted the number of calories I’m taking in which is at or greater than my maintenance number. If you had dietary suggestions, you should have made them. Instead all you post are flames and insults. My posts are for actual help. If you have no desire to help and you only wish to go on emotional rants, please refrain.[/quote]

That is just a funny response. The ‘actual help’ you wanted, you received, you just chose not to accept it. The crap you received, because it fits your preconceived notion, is what you chose to accept.

GhostNtheSystem · December 1, 2006, 8:52pm

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Modi wrote:
If anyone here accidently stumbles upon the secret to waking up one morning with too much added muscle, it would make a great thread, probably even a 5 star thread…

Not to mention secure your financial independence.

@ Ghostinthesystem:

At bottom, after every single topic possible has been discussed, self induced physical enhancement of any kind happens as a result of 3 things. Controlled progressive overload, fuel and recovery. Somewhere in these three very basic areas lie your answers.

3500 (at the high end) calories a day for a guy running 18 miles a week, never mind any other kind of training? I don’t think anybody,s flaming you, but there is no mystery here. That is not enough food for what you’re doing. At bare minimum you need to severely cut back on your running if you plan to get much stronger even if you do increase your food. You’re likely sinking a large part of your recovery into the running.

Somebody may have said all this already, forgive the redundancy if they did. I’m in the middle of some other stuff.[/quote]

Actually, that provides some insight. But if 3500 isn’t enough yet it’s causing me to gain fat, how do I go about losing the fat? Am I suppose to do this in stages where I go some time eating and building muscle and then go some time just burning off fat? And if so, then wouldn’t the muscle just burn off along with the fat? I’m rather unclear as to how to achieve both goals.

hueyOT · December 1, 2006, 9:30pm

[quote]Modi wrote:
hueyOT wrote:

Huey, I think you misinterpreted my question. I was not asking how to perform an exercise or how to fully activate a muscle.

I was pointing out the fact that your terminology is wrong. You don’t limit “biceps flexion” by focusing on your lats. Biceps flexion is a measurement of how many degrees the forearm is bent towards the upper arm.

I appreciate the advice, but I am more concerned that you are giving out advice without having a full knowledge of anatomical terms.

if you need me to clarify, all i’m trying to say is that you minimize/limit biceps flexion IN COMPARISON to the more commonly used incorrect methods of performing back exercises. my terminology is correct. biceps flexion is minimized when performing lat-dominant pulls PROPERLY as opposed to the more commonly seen IMPROPER techniques.

is the flexion of the elbow during a row or chin up? of course. is it ideal to reduce this flexion as much as possible to add the emphasis of the exercise to the lats? yes. that’s what i meant.

what i forgot to do was indicate a reference point to which i was making the comparison.

i should’ve said: ‘minimized elbow flexion when COMPARED to more commonly performed incorrect technique’.

Either I can’t understand what you are typing, or your terminology is wrong.

The closer your forearm is to your humerus, the more biceps flexion (elbow flexion) you have. I don’t care how many fibers are contracted, how forceful the contraction was, or how it even got there. You can use your other arm to manually move your forearm to touch your bicep, and it is still fully flexed. Don’t confuse the anatomical term FLEXION with ACTIVATION, they are not one and the same.

I am NOT talking about activation here. Not about how to engage your lats vs your biceps. This is a much simpler concept. If your elbow is completely bent it is flexed, if it is straight, it is extended. They are pretty simple terms. You don’t flex a muscle, you contract it.[/quote]

ok look this is the last reply i will make to you on this subject. i don’t know whow much clearler i have to make it for you.

i know the difference between flexion and activation. what i’m saying is, that to perform most lat-dominant pulls properly, you want to limit biceps flexion as much as is possible.

of course there are some exercises that will lead to near maximal flexion. i.e. medium grip underhand chin-ups.

with most lat-dominant back exercises, however, you want to limit this biceps flexion in order to perform the exercise properly and place the emphasis of the work on the lats. bent-over overhand-grip barbell rows. dumbell rows. wide-grip overhand chins. seated cable rows with virtually any attachment. how much more do i have to spell this out?

i’m talking about this because 90% of people i see doing these exercises <i’ve been training for 8 years and i’ve trained in many gyms> execute these movements incorrectly by overusing their biceps, leading to increased biceps flexion and decreased lat contraction.

i.e. a common error when performing bent-over barbell rows with an overhand grip: most trainees flex their biceps too much, and do not maintain that perpendicular angle (90 degrees) between their forearms and the floor (necessary compnonent of proper technique). i can give many more examples but i won’t.

again, i don’t know how much clearer i can explain this without being with you in the same gym. but i think it’s pretty clear, now.

Tiribulus · December 1, 2006, 10:56pm

[quote]GhostNtheSystem wrote:
Actually, that provides some insight. But if 3500 isn’t enough yet it’s causing me to gain fat, how do I go about losing the fat? Am I suppose to do this in stages where I go some time eating and building muscle and then go some time just burning off fat? And if so, then wouldn’t the muscle just burn off along with the fat? I’m rather unclear as to how to achieve both goals. [/quote]

There’s probably somebody here who can offer something better than I’m about to, but I can’t see how, at 3500 or less cals a day, even for your modest size, you can be gaining fat while running a 10,000K three times a week with other significant training as well.

Unless your drinking 3500 calories worth of some kind of melted margarine and corn syrup sauce. I have no idea what it might be, but I can’t help thinking there’s either a missing or inaccurate piece of info in here somewhere.

Modi · December 1, 2006, 11:02pm

[quote]hueyOT wrote:
Modi wrote: