Designing a push/pull/legs split, would you put lateral deltoid work on the push or pull day? Exercises like upright rows seem to naturally fit a ‘pull’ day, but I’d always though of lateral raises being more of a ‘push’ exercise… confused.
If you are doing push/pull/leg you are focusing on movements not on muscles. So just do the exercises that fit the movements, and dont worry about what muscles you are hitting one what days.
[quote]dankid wrote:
If you are doing push/pull/leg you are focusing on movements not on muscles. So just do the exercises that fit the movements, and dont worry about what muscles you are hitting one what days.[/quote]
Sound stuff. So the plan now looks like so:
‘‘Push’’:
Slight incline bench
OHP
Dips
Flyes
Lat. raises
‘‘Pull’’:
Deadlifts
Chins
DB one-arm rows
Upright rows (cable probably)
EZ bar curls
‘‘Legs’’:
Squats
SLDL
Single legged leg-press
Glute/hamstring curls
Calf raises
That has some lat. deltoid work on both push and pull days, but it does certainly seem to fit the ‘movement not muscles’ idea, so I’m pretty happy.
I would definitely NOT do the upright rows. In their place I would add face pulls. Other than that, it looks like a good plan and good exercise choices.
[quote]Shoulder Saver #16: Ditching the Barbell Upright Rows
I’ve often said that I don’t believe in contraindicated exercises â?? only contraindicated individuals. I still stand firm with that statement, but if there is one exercise that will ever push me over the line, it’s going to be the upright row. This is as internally rotated as the humerus will get, and you’re elevating the humerus right into the impingement zone on every rep.
For that reason, I’ll never write this into a program for a client or athlete. The dumbbell version is a slightly safer alternative, although I feel that there are still much safer ways to challenge the upper traps and deltoids. To summarize, if you’ve ever had a shoulder problem, suspect that you might have one now, or have other predisposing characteristics (i.e. poor posture, lots of overhead work in your daily life) that might increase your risk of impingement, you’d be wise to omit upright rows altogether.
-Eric Cressey from Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION [/quote]
If you’re doing upright rows for traps just widen out your grip to spare your joints. That makes it more of a trap exercise anyway I gather.
Some sources list upright rows as a lateral delt exercise.
I suppose all manner of rowing would hit lateral delts to a little xtent but I don’t think it’s comparable to what they get in pushing exercises+isolation raises. I would imagine that your body would adapt to getting lateral delts hammered on the other day and just getting a slight jolt on the other day so that the ‘extra’ useless, unwanted exercise would not hinder their recovery much.
on push day
There is a lot of nonsense in this thread.
Working the movement and not the muscle is a poor approach to bodybuilding and will undoubtedly leave you with glaring weak points in your physique
Face pulls are not an adequate replacement for upright rows. Facepulls primarily work the rear delts. Upright rows, depending on grip width, work the traps, lateral delts, and front delts.
Widening the grip of an upright row will put more emphasis on the lateral delts, NOT the traps. A closer grip will emphasize the traps.
1 Like
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
There is a lot of nonsense in this thread.
Working the movement and not the muscle is a poor approach to bodybuilding and will undoubtedly leave you with glaring weak points in your physique
Face pulls are not an adequate replacement for upright rows. Facepulls primarily work the rear delts. Upright rows, depending on grip width, work the traps, lateral delts, and front delts.
Widening the grip of an upright row will put more emphasis on the lateral delts, NOT the traps. A closer grip will emphasize the traps.
[/quote]
Along with that, this bullshit about training movements should be in the CONDITIONING forum. It has no place at all in a bodybuilding forum unless you simply like creating imbalances.
In fact, this question shouldn’t even come up in a bodybuilding forum because if you are training shoulders, then do lateral raises that day.
[quote]Woking 1-0 World wrote:
Sound stuff. So the plan now looks like so:
‘‘Push’’:
Slight incline bench
OHP
Dips
Flyes
Lat. raises
‘‘Pull’’:
Deadlifts
Chins
DB one-arm rows
Upright rows (cable probably)
EZ bar curls
‘‘Legs’’:
Squats
SLDL
Single legged leg-press
Glute/hamstring curls
Calf raises
That has some lat. deltoid work on both push and pull days, but it does certainly seem to fit the ‘movement not muscles’ idea, so I’m pretty happy.[/quote]
Looks good, but a couple of questions/comments.
-
Why slight incline on the bench press? Just go with flat bench and OHP.
-
Putting deadlifts on the pull day is a debatable topic. I would say it depends on the freuquency you are going to use.
How often are you going to do each day? 1x per week, or are you going to do more often.
You could also just turn these into rack pulls to make them more of an upper back exercise and less of a total body exercise.
But like I said, it depends on the frequency. I would have a tough time squatting heavy if I did deadlifts the day before.
-
I’d just drop upright rows all together. They are going to be more trouble than they are worth. There are a ton of alternatives: face pulls, or seated DB cleans probably would suit you best, since you already have a lot of big exercises in there, but if needed powercleans would be a much better alternative.
-
You may need some direct tricep work on your push day, but if you do the bench or OHP with a narrow grip then it probably wouldn’t be needed. And i’d drop the curls, but thats up to you.
-
I’d also switch the chinups around with the 1-arm rows. This is just my personal preference, but I prefer to train horizontal pulling heavier than vertical, so i’d put them first with more weight, and then do the chinups with higher reps.
-
Lastly, i’d try to find a way to fit lunges or split squats in there somewhere. Probably drop 1-leg leg press.
Other than that it looks great. I’d like to see what your weekly schedule would be, and the sets/reps you are going to use. But you cant go wrong with a ‘movement not muscles’ approach. This is how most people get strong and big, and is not bullshit in any way.
Good luck!
Lateral raises are a shoulder exercise so why wouldn’t you work them the same day as your other shoulder exercises? Do all your shoulder exercises one day and you won’t have to worry about stuff like this.
[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
Lateral raises are a shoulder exercise so why wouldn’t you work them the same day as your other shoulder exercises? Do all your shoulder exercises one day and you won’t have to worry about stuff like this.[/quote]
That’s way too easy. You must have missed the memo where we all agreed that making shit overly complicated so that people don’t achieve anywhere near the same is what we all want.
In this forum, the last thing we want to see is people with big muscles.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
sam_sneed wrote:
Lateral raises are a shoulder exercise so why wouldn’t you work them the same day as your other shoulder exercises? Do all your shoulder exercises one day and you won’t have to worry about stuff like this.
That’s way too easy. You must have missed the memo where we all agreed that making shit overly complicated so that people don’t achieve anywhere near the same is what we all want.
In this forum, the last thing we want to see is people with big muscles.[/quote]
It’s really simple:
The shoulder bones is connected to the neck bones which is connected to the back bones which is connected to the liver bone. Turkeys have livers which are connected to the thigh bone. Chickens have thigh bones and breasts, too.
I like breasts.
I do lateral delts when I think about breasts.
My lateral delts are exploding.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Professor X wrote:
sam_sneed wrote:
Lateral raises are a shoulder exercise so why wouldn’t you work them the same day as your other shoulder exercises? Do all your shoulder exercises one day and you won’t have to worry about stuff like this.
That’s way too easy. You must have missed the memo where we all agreed that making shit overly complicated so that people don’t achieve anywhere near the same is what we all want.
In this forum, the last thing we want to see is people with big muscles.
It’s really simple:
The shoulder bones is connected to the neck bones which is connected to the back bones which is connected to the liver bone. Turkeys have livers which are connected to the thigh bone. Chickens have thigh bones and breasts, too.
I like breasts.
I do lateral delts when I think about breasts.
My lateral delts are exploding.[/quote]
That was fucking brilliant.
However, let me see if I can add some illumination to this theory of yours.
If the biceps is connected to the humerus…and I find the acting of Steven Seagal to be humorous, and if Seagal appeared in the movie Hard To Kill where he broke a guy’s left leg, then training legs unilaterally should help me grow even bigger quads?
Holy shit, I think I just blew my own mind.
Could someone clarify this for me even further?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
SteelyD wrote:
Professor X wrote:
sam_sneed wrote:
Lateral raises are a shoulder exercise so why wouldn’t you work them the same day as your other shoulder exercises? Do all your shoulder exercises one day and you won’t have to worry about stuff like this.
That’s way too easy. You must have missed the memo where we all agreed that making shit overly complicated so that people don’t achieve anywhere near the same is what we all want.
In this forum, the last thing we want to see is people with big muscles.
It’s really simple:
The shoulder bones is connected to the neck bones which is connected to the back bones which is connected to the liver bone. Turkeys have livers which are connected to the thigh bone. Chickens have thigh bones and breasts, too.
I like breasts.
I do lateral delts when I think about breasts.
My lateral delts are exploding.
That was fucking brilliant.
However, let me see if I can add some illumination to this theory of yours.
If the biceps is connected to the humerus…and I find the acting of Steven Seagal to be humorous, and if Seagal appeared in the movie Hard To Kill where he broke a guy’s left leg, then training legs unilaterally should help me grow even bigger quads?
Holy shit, I think I just blew my own mind.
Could someone clarify this for me even further?[/quote]
Well, yeah. See? You got it on the first try! How much simpler could it possibly be?
Today, I looked out the window and saw it was raining. Rain is water and I drink water, usually from a cup. I grip the cup in my hand. When I drink the water, it goes down my throat, which is inside my neck.
My neck is connected to my back bones which is connected … liver … turkey … chicken … breast … LATERAL RAISES!
Today’s workout: Grip, Neck, Lateral raises.
Wait, I may have found a flaw…
[quote]dankid wrote:
- You may need some direct tricep work on your push day, but if you do the bench or OHP with a narrow grip then it probably wouldn’t be needed. And i’d drop the curls, but thats up to you.
[/quote]
Why drop the curls? I don’t see where he directly works his biceps anywhere else in his workout. Same goes for the bench with the narrow grip. If he goes close grip, he’s not going to give his chest the workout it needs. It’s like trading chest for tricep development. Why not do the bench the normal way and add a tricep exercise in the routine?
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Professor X wrote:
SteelyD wrote:
Professor X wrote:
sam_sneed wrote:
Lateral raises are a shoulder exercise so why wouldn’t you work them the same day as your other shoulder exercises? Do all your shoulder exercises one day and you won’t have to worry about stuff like this.
That’s way too easy. You must have missed the memo where we all agreed that making shit overly complicated so that people don’t achieve anywhere near the same is what we all want.
In this forum, the last thing we want to see is people with big muscles.
It’s really simple:
The shoulder bones is connected to the neck bones which is connected to the back bones which is connected to the liver bone. Turkeys have livers which are connected to the thigh bone. Chickens have thigh bones and breasts, too.
I like breasts.
I do lateral delts when I think about breasts.
My lateral delts are exploding.
That was fucking brilliant.
However, let me see if I can add some illumination to this theory of yours.
If the biceps is connected to the humerus…and I find the acting of Steven Seagal to be humorous, and if Seagal appeared in the movie Hard To Kill where he broke a guy’s left leg, then training legs unilaterally should help me grow even bigger quads?
Holy shit, I think I just blew my own mind.
Could someone clarify this for me even further?
Well, yeah. See? You got it on the first try! How much simpler could it possibly be?
Today, I looked out the window and saw it was raining. Rain is water and I drink water, usually from a cup. I grip the cup in my hand. When I drink the water, it goes down my throat, which is inside my neck.
My neck is connected to my back bones which is connected … liver … turkey … chicken … breast … LATERAL RAISES!
Today’s workout: Grip, Neck, Lateral raises.
Wait, I may have found a flaw…[/quote]
Yes, the key seems to be to go slower with the connections.
For instance, Beyonce has big boobs. Boobs make me feel tingly inside and they make me smile. When I smile, I use muscles in my cheeks. My butt has cheeks too which get really sore when I go deep on squats…which I now use a machine for with a pad that rests on my traps. Therefore, today I should train traps with shoulders.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Yes, the key seems to be to go slower with the connections.
For instance, Beyonce has big boobs. Boobs make me feel tingly inside and they make me smile. When I smile, I use muscles in my cheeks. My butt has cheeks too which get really sore when I go deep on squats…which I now use a machine for with a pad that rests on my traps. Therefore, today I should train traps with shoulders.[/quote]
I think that’s the tweak I’m looking for!!
Although, I’ve thought about Beyonce before. It seems that only my grip, wrist, and forearms get the workout. Be right back!..
[quote]dankid wrote:
Woking 1-0 World wrote:
Sound stuff. So the plan now looks like so:
‘‘Push’’:
Slight incline bench
OHP
Dips
Flyes
Lat. raises
‘‘Pull’’:
Deadlifts
Chins
DB one-arm rows
Upright rows (cable probably)
EZ bar curls
‘‘Legs’’:
Squats
SLDL
Single legged leg-press
Glute/hamstring curls
Calf raises
That has some lat. deltoid work on both push and pull days, but it does certainly seem to fit the ‘movement not muscles’ idea, so I’m pretty happy.
Looks good, but a couple of questions/comments.
-
Why slight incline on the bench press? Just go with flat bench and OHP.
-
Putting deadlifts on the pull day is a debatable topic. I would say it depends on the freuquency you are going to use.
How often are you going to do each day? 1x per week, or are you going to do more often.
You could also just turn these into rack pulls to make them more of an upper back exercise and less of a total body exercise.
But like I said, it depends on the frequency. I would have a tough time squatting heavy if I did deadlifts the day before.
-
I’d just drop upright rows all together. They are going to be more trouble than they are worth. There are a ton of alternatives: face pulls, or seated DB cleans probably would suit you best, since you already have a lot of big exercises in there, but if needed powercleans would be a much better alternative.
-
You may need some direct tricep work on your push day, but if you do the bench or OHP with a narrow grip then it probably wouldn’t be needed. And i’d drop the curls, but thats up to you.
-
I’d also switch the chinups around with the 1-arm rows. This is just my personal preference, but I prefer to train horizontal pulling heavier than vertical, so i’d put them first with more weight, and then do the chinups with higher reps.
-
Lastly, i’d try to find a way to fit lunges or split squats in there somewhere. Probably drop 1-leg leg press.
Other than that it looks great. I’d like to see what your weekly schedule would be, and the sets/reps you are going to use. But you cant go wrong with a ‘movement not muscles’ approach. This is how most people get strong and big, and is not bullshit in any way.
Good luck![/quote]
Oh WOW what a surprise… even more nonsense in this post.
[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
dankid wrote:
- You may need some direct tricep work on your push day, but if you do the bench or OHP with a narrow grip then it probably wouldn’t be needed. And i’d drop the curls, but thats up to you.
Why drop the curls? I don’t see where he directly works his biceps anywhere else in his workout. Same goes for the bench with the narrow grip. If he goes close grip, he’s not going to give his chest the workout it needs. It’s like trading chest for tricep development. Why not do the bench the normal way and add a tricep exercise in the routine?[/quote]
Its mainly my opinion, but if he’s doing deadlifts, Rows, chinups, and something like facepulls, he doesn’t really need to directly work biceps. Its the old direct arm work debate, but im just saying it probably isn’t needed if he’s training everything pretty hard. I could easily see dropping one pulling movement and adding direct bicep work, but thats up to him.
As for training the chest, he’s got two presses, dips, and flys. That 4 exerises for chest, one of them being direct. If he changes one of the presses to CG, he’ll still work his chest on that movement, AND 3 other movements. Or, he can maybe drop dips or one press and do tricep extensions.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
SteelyD wrote:
Professor X wrote:
SteelyD wrote:
Professor X wrote:
sam_sneed wrote:
Lateral raises are a shoulder exercise so why wouldn’t you work them the same day as your other shoulder exercises? Do all your shoulder exercises one day and you won’t have to worry about stuff like this.
That’s way too easy. You must have missed the memo where we all agreed that making shit overly complicated so that people don’t achieve anywhere near the same is what we all want.
In this forum, the last thing we want to see is people with big muscles.
It’s really simple:
The shoulder bones is connected to the neck bones which is connected to the back bones which is connected to the liver bone. Turkeys have livers which are connected to the thigh bone. Chickens have thigh bones and breasts, too.
I like breasts.
I do lateral delts when I think about breasts.
My lateral delts are exploding.
That was fucking brilliant.
However, let me see if I can add some illumination to this theory of yours.
If the biceps is connected to the humerus…and I find the acting of Steven Seagal to be humorous, and if Seagal appeared in the movie Hard To Kill where he broke a guy’s left leg, then training legs unilaterally should help me grow even bigger quads?
Holy shit, I think I just blew my own mind.
Could someone clarify this for me even further?
Well, yeah. See? You got it on the first try! How much simpler could it possibly be?
Today, I looked out the window and saw it was raining. Rain is water and I drink water, usually from a cup. I grip the cup in my hand. When I drink the water, it goes down my throat, which is inside my neck.
My neck is connected to my back bones which is connected … liver … turkey … chicken … breast … LATERAL RAISES!
Today’s workout: Grip, Neck, Lateral raises.
Wait, I may have found a flaw…
Yes, the key seems to be to go slower with the connections.
For instance, Beyonce has big boobs. Boobs make me feel tingly inside and they make me smile. When I smile, I use muscles in my cheeks. My butt has cheeks too which get really sore when I go deep on squats…which I now use a machine for with a pad that rests on my traps. Therefore, today I should train traps with shoulders.[/quote]
That sounds really complex. I think you should just do TBT.