Synthol
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
GhostNtheSystem wrote:
I want to quit curls. I’d like some suggested replacement exercises for the biceps.
Don’t do that; if everybody did it, all the “curl racks” would become useless and a waste of space 
This is my yearly joke, enjoy it.[/quote]
Holy shit…You may have stumbled onto something here…Seriously…Think about walking into a gym and actually having somewhere to do squats or rack pulls without having to wait for someone to finish their curls.
Brilliant!
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Any pulling movement will obviously work the biceps BUT I see a problem down the road when using the chins/pull-ups to build the biceps.
When doing so, you will obviously focus more on your arms than on your back. And most peoples have a hard time peroperly contracting their back during a lifting exercise (I see a lot of “arm pullers” than hardly contract the back at all). So by reinforcing a faulty movement pattern for the sake of building arms, over time it will become harder and harder for your nervous system to properly active the back muscles.
If anything during “back exercises” I do try to minimize the involvment of the arm flexors. If all you care about is using big weights, then by all means use any lifting form you want. But if you want a complete physique you should make sure that the targeted muscle in a lift will be maximally worked.
Technically you could train using only:
- a squat movement
- a deadlift
- a bench pressing movement
- a pulling movement
And have good results as long as you train hard and focus on progress. However your development will not be balanced becaue during a compound lift the dominating muscle group will take over the bulk of the work, and the assisting muscles will receive less stress. As a result the overpowering muscles will be stimulated more and grow faster. This amplifies the imbalance problem because your strengths will increase faster than your weaknesses.
For example, I have overpowering delts. If all I did for chest were pressing movements, I would get no chest development at all because my shoulders get the bulk of the work. In fact, the time where my bench press was at its highest, was the time where I have basically no chest (I only did basic lifts).
I’m not saying that you need to perform tons of direct volume for your biceps. But if you are after a balanced level of development you should include some curling in your program (even if its only one exercise) and focus on your back when doing pulling movements.[/quote]
since when doing a back excercise, like a pull up, the major muscle(back) will take majority of the load, should i “eliminate” the bicep as much as possible and focus on back, or should i try to incorporate bicep into the back exercise? would i make more gains in both back and bicep overall by targeting these two muscles together? i used to do back exercises with as little bicep as possible. but recently i decided to try to use more bicep, cos of some article i read here (can’t exactly remember which one, maybe it was a few articles), cos it seems you would make more gains. i defintely want a balanced physique, but i want to maximise gains as well.
To add some stuff, most of which has already been said:
I agree with what has previously been said about elbow health. I got into the “tris for guys, curls for girls” thing and neglected curling and did a ton of tricep work, and I started getting some elbow pain for the first time ever. Over the past 6-8 weeks I’ve been adding a few sets of curls about once a week and it’s made a slight, but noticeable difference already.
Also, my chinning strength has increased a little bit.
And… I’ve never taken a measurement, but I think my arms feel a little bigger and fuller. As I said it’s only been about 6-8 weeks, but they just feel a little bigger. Could be pyschological, could be a legit slight size increase.
So, even if you play a sport where supposedly biceps play no role (I’m a college volleyball player), there’s still a place for curls in your program. I’ve found that a total of about 4-5 sets a week doesn’t affect my ability to recover at all. If you want to seem all cool and technical, just call it “elbow flexion” work and the functional guys won’t beat you up with their BOSU balls.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
GhostNtheSystem wrote:
I want to quit curls. I’d like some suggested replacement exercises for the biceps.
Don’t do that; if everybody did it, all the “curl racks” would become useless and a waste of space This is my yearly joke, enjoy it.[/quote]
Please forgive my ignorance. I train in my basement and haven’t spent a lot of time in commercial gyms lately, but I’ve seen this come up a few times now. Is there some trend out there to use the power rack for curls or something? Not that you couldn’t do it, but I can’t see how it would work any better than a hundred other more traditional curling methods.
[quote]malonetd wrote:
This is stupid. I’m a competitive strongman and really wouldn’t consider myself much of a bodybuilder. I do, however, like the size I have gained over the years and like being relatively big for my height.
Anyway, I got caught up in the “no-need-to-curl” hype and hardly did any curls for 3 years. I’m regretting it big time now. For one my elbows constantly hurt. I’ve built up such an imbalance with my triceps that I always have pain in my elbows. Every heavy pressing movement sets my elbows on fire, especially the negative. It sucks.
Secondly, I like being big and I have very little bicep development. I’m not a bodybuilder, but I want size everywhere, including biceps.
Lastly, I’m such a weak curler now that it’s almost embarrassing. I hate struggling with sets of the 50’s. Someone that’s been lifting as long as me should be stronger than that.
Learn from my mistakes; don’t stop curling.[/quote]
Emphasis above mine.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
…I’m not saying that you need to perform tons of direct volume for your biceps. But if you are after a balanced level of development you should include some curling in your program (even if its only one exercise) and focus on your back when doing pulling movements…[/quote]
I really do believe these 2 quotes sum up the truth of this matter for a very large number of “middle of the pack” guys who seem to make this much more complicated than it needs to be.
For the moment I include a few sets of different kinds of heavy curls after back when they’re already tuned up. I am definitely not saying that this is THE way to do it. It is one way that encompasses the complimentary viewpoints above and it’s working quite well. I have a contingency plan for the next phase when the results start to slow down.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
GhostNtheSystem wrote:
I want to quit curls. I’d like some suggested replacement exercises for the biceps.
Don’t do that; if everybody did it, all the “curl racks” would become useless and a waste of space This is my yearly joke, enjoy it.
Please forgive my ignorance. I train in my basement and haven’t spent a lot of time in commercial gyms lately, but I’ve seen this come up a few times now. Is there some trend out there to use the power rack for curls or something? Not that you couldn’t do it, but I can’t see how it would work any better than a hundred other more traditional curling methods. [/quote]
Ignorance is bliss.
Yes, the trend seems to be for the less experienced lifters to use the squat rack as their base of operations for curls. This probably has something to do with them not knowing what a squat actually is. (or any basic compound movement for that matter).
In my gym there are 3 or 4 racks specifically set up for people to use for bicep curls, nosebreakers, etc. but they seem to prefer the squat/power rack. At first I thought it was just to annoy me, but it seems that it is a common annoyance to everyone around here.
[quote]
since when doing a back excercise, like a pull up, the major muscle(back) will take majority of the load, should i “eliminate” the bicep as much as possible and focus on back, or should i try to incorporate bicep into the back exercise? [/quote]
That’s the problem. The intended muscle does not always take the majority of the load. With compound movements, your body will use whatever muscles it can to lift the weight (or move the body) in the most efficient manner.
This is why isolation movements are necessary. YOU may or may not get a lot of biceps involvement with pullups/chins or rows or whatever. The idea of isolation exercises is to balance out those bodyparts that aren’t being hit optimally through the compounds.
[quote]malonetd wrote:
This is stupid. I’m a competitive strongman and really wouldn’t consider myself much of a bodybuilder. I do, however, like the size I have gained over the years and like being relatively big for my height.
Anyway, I got caught up in the “no-need-to-curl” hype and hardly did any curls for 3 years. I’m regretting it big time now. For one my elbows constantly hurt. I’ve built up such an imbalance with my triceps that I always have pain in my elbows. Every heavy pressing movement sets my elbows on fire, especially the negative. It sucks.
Secondly, I like being big and I have very little bicep development. I’m not a bodybuilder, but I want size everywhere, including biceps.
Lastly, I’m such a weak curler now that it’s almost embarrassing. I hate struggling with sets of the 50’s. Someone that’s been lifting as long as me should be stronger than that.
Learn from my mistakes; don’t stop curling.[/quote]
well said! i can’t remember if i’ve already said the same thing in this thread, but i ignored direct biceps work for about a year thinking i was getting enough biceps work from all the various pulls i did.
BIG MISTAKE. at my best, i had 18-inch arms with NO BICEPS. how pathetic is that? LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKE KIDS… DO YOU CURLS!
christian hit it perfectly. he said what i was trying to say in my first post: that compound lifts do not stimulate all muscles involved equally. there is always more tension created in the lats when performing medium-grip underhand chins <properly! meaning: elbows in, and full range of motion, and minimal swinging> than in the biceps, forearms, abdominals, rear delts, etc…
now, as a result of this, there will be unequal strength and size improvements in the muscles involved in the compound movements. i.e. if someone only did chins, his/her lats would grow fast than every other muscle in the lift.
what does this mean? DO YOUR DAMN CURLS IF YOU WANT BALANCED STRENGTH GAINS.
Approaching this from a different angle. If I’m staring at the precisely correct equipment for doing iso work on my bi’s, tri’s, delts, abs, and calves why would I NOT do some?
It’s almost like some guys believe that it will set them back or something. Like eating a bad diet.
Also just like compounds hit the smaller groups to some degree, most isolation movements don’t isolate to the absolute exclusion of every other muscle in the body. The strictest exercises like concentration or preacher curls, still work the forearms and even delts to some degree.
[quote]hueyOT wrote:
christian hit it perfectly. he said what i was trying to say in my first post: that compound lifts do not stimulate all muscles involved equally. there is always more tension created in the lats when performing medium-grip underhand chins <properly! meaning: elbows in, and full range of motion, and minimal swinging> than in the biceps, forearms, abdominals, rear delts, etc…
now, as a result of this, there will be unequal strength and size improvements in the muscles involved in the compound movements. i.e. if someone only did chins, his/her lats would grow fast than every other muscle in the lift.
what does this mean? DO YOUR DAMN CURLS IF YOU WANT BALANCED STRENGTH GAINS.[/quote]
I used to do no direct arm work. My lats kept blowing up, to the point of completely dominating my external rotators in strength. I always wondered why my arms were small. Then I started doing curls…tada, .80 or so of an inch appeared on my arms in a matter of 3 months.
I’m just imagining the scenario in which he is curling, drops the barbell, says “fuck this, I QUIT CURLING.” and walks out of the gym, LOLZ.
I can’t believe no one jumped on the dufus who thinks snatch grip deads fatigue the biceps significantly…
Maybe a touch at the shoulder for keeping everything together…
[quote]Easy E wrote:
I have the same problem but its not with biceps, its with chest. I want to get a bigger chest, but I dont want to press anything. Is there an alternative way?[/quote]
Implants. Ta-da! That was simple.
[quote]buffalokilla wrote:
I can’t believe no one jumped on the dufus who thinks snatch grip deads fatigue the biceps significantly…
Maybe a touch at the shoulder for keeping everything together…[/quote]
i didn’t even want to start with that guy. i thought about responding, and though to myself, ‘nah…’
thinking snatch grip deadlifts will build big biceps is beyond ridiculous. i can guarantee you that guy isn’t big OR strong. a lot of guys seem to think that minor activation of a muscle makes it bigger.
let me say this, if your biceps are getting fatigues from snatch grip deadlifts. your biceps suck. same thing goes for abs getting sore from squats. that doesn’t mean squats are a good ab workout. it means your abs SUCK.
anywayzzzzz…
[quote]alownage wrote:
I used to do no direct arm work. My lats kept blowing up, to the point of completely dominating my external rotators in strength.[/quote]
Maybe that isn’t such a bad thing for a beginner to lifting. More potential for arm growth after your back grows a bit.
[quote]Scott aka Rice wrote:
alownage wrote:
I used to do no direct arm work. My lats kept blowing up, to the point of completely dominating my external rotators in strength.
Maybe that isn’t such a bad thing for a beginner to lifting. More potential for arm growth after your back grows a bit.[/quote]
no. it’s an imbalance. that’s not advantageous at any stage in training. at a certain point his biceps will become a liability and limit his ability to do many lat-dominant exercises heavy enough.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
GhostNtheSystem wrote:
Is there any benefit from curls that one does not gain from pull ups/chin ups?
Obviously none at all. This is why bodybuilders do them the world over…because there is no benefit. They just like wasting time.
Pull ups and chin ups are back exercises where the biceps are used in the process. They don’t allow direct focus on biceps muscle contraction. Your biceps get worked, but not to the degree of direct isolation work which can potentially affect more muscle fibers leading to more growth in the area if for no other reason than through multiple sets and the exclusion of larger muscle groups that take the brunt of the directed force.
I do believe this concept has been beaten to death and I now find it really stupid that people are trying this hard to NOT do certain exercises. What the hell is happening within bodybuilding?[/quote]
Great post. Pull-ups/chin-ups will only provide a high level of bicep stimulation if they are the ‘weakest link’ in the chain of muscles that are involved (forearms, biceps, upper back, posterior deltoids). Unless you are an absolute beginner who has less than 6 months of solid training, then curls or an equivelant bicep isolation exercise are necesarry for maximal stimulation.
[quote]hueyOT wrote:
no. it’s an imbalance. that’s not advantageous at any stage in training. at a certain point his biceps will become a liability and limit his ability to do many lat-dominant exercises heavy enough.[/quote]
At a certain point, yes, there would be a major imbalance. My post was in reference to a beginner and for them to avoid arm work no longer than 2-3 months. I think if you were going to put emphasis on one for growth, I would work my lats before my biceps. Then you could go into a specialization program for direct arm work or just incorporate it.
I didn’t mean that someone should avoid arm work for a long period of time. Too many people are quick to do multiple variations of curls and too few rows. (I’m just generalizing the normal gym-goer here). I guess my point is that someone doing curls would have a lot more potential for bicep growth if they had a good foundation of back strength. I don’t think someone with experience in the gym should ever eliminate all curls from their routine. A beginner’s arms will grow on pretty much any exercise that uses a pulling motion.
Snatch grip deadlift for big guns FTW! j/k
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