Hey!
“Everyone” keeps saying that you cant get rid of the bf and pack on mass at the same time, cos u gotta eat more than you burn to be able to grow…
No idea if it true so i gotta ask you guys!
Why cant the body use the bf for fuel and the protein from the food to build mass?
I want to know why this is not possible.
Thanks Johansson sweden.
I believe it is possible if you eat low carb except for around the workout period. Most people say it can’t be done but I think it can, especially in people who are newer to training.
Why do I keep doin this to myself?
All of the following points go for somebody who gets their diet under decent control and actually trains hard.
Untrained, overweight people will probably not be able to avoid losing fat and gaining muscle at the same time.
The more overweight they are the longer this will continue.
Once a certain level of leanness is reached that is unique to the individual they will no longer be able to continue getting yet leaner and continuing to grow at the same time. The exceptions to this are so rare and are achieved under such exacting conditions so as to make them utterly irrelevant to the average shmo showing up here asking questions.
When someone reaches a fairly advanced experience level they will be able to more precisely manipulate their body composition, but will still be be unable to stay very lean and make gains.
In short, people just getting started will get leanER while building that initial muscle, but getting leaner and more muscular as a noob is something altogether different than BIG and RIPPED.
If all you care about is shaping up some and being an actually large individual is not your thing nothing I just said will make any difference to you.
If you look into some of the Physic Clinics, some of the guys are losing fat while gaining muscle, so it definitely can be done. But I mean they are following a program made by a professional coach, average joe won’t know how to manipulate the diet and training to achieve those goals.
[quote]tykraus7 wrote:
I believe it is possible if you eat low carb except for around the workout period. Most people say it can’t be done but I think it can, especially in people who are newer to training.[/quote]
For those who respond like this, how many of you have built a physique that will show us how approaching it like this has worked for you? If the answer is that you have not done this, why are you responding about “possibilities”?
Untrained individuals will no doubt gain “some” muscle and they may lose “some” fat, but this will not continue on a grand scale forever. Pick a goal and go for it. Stop straddling a fence and getting nowhere while talking about “possibilities”.
[quote]Vasa wrote:
If you look into some of the Physic Clinics, some of the guys are losing fat while gaining muscle, so it definitely can be done. But I mean they are following a program made by a professional coach, average joe won’t know how to manipulate the diet and training to achieve those goals.[/quote]
Er… and none of them has that much muscle to begin with.
Why people are so afraid of bodyfat when its so easy to strip it off?
I think you got me wrong, om not trying to be lean and big at the same time, im doing the bulk n cut as everyone else, im just wondering why this is not possible?
What u said about the fat people being able to loosie fat and gain muscle at the same time i aleady knew, but now im talking about lean people and why their bodeis can not put on muscle and lose fat at the same time.
How is this not possible?
[quote]irongutted wrote:
Why people are so afraid of bodyfat when its so easy to strip it off?
[/quote]
…Yes but why put on the body fat in the first place you don’t need fat in order to gain muscle, so the cutting period then becomes a waste of valuable muscle growing time. no?
[quote]Johansson wrote:
I think you got me wrong, om not trying to be lean and big at the same time, im doing the bulk n cut as everyone else, im just wondering why this is not possible?
What u said about the fat people being able to loosie fat and gain muscle at the same time i aleady knew, but now im talking about lean people and why their bodeis can not put on muscle and lose fat at the same time.
How is this not possible?[/quote]
No one has written that this is IMPOSSIBLE. It is not IMPOSSIBLE to gain “some” muscle while losing “some” body fat. It is ridiculous, however, to jump into this and assume you will somehow consistently drop body fat while gaining a ton of muscle mass at the exact same time. There is an energy balance that must be satisfied. At the same time, biology is not so constricted that it can’t adapt to some degree based on that individual’s genetic makeup. That means the only reason you are confused…is because you haven’t learned the basics of biology.
This is why, instead of so many newbies focusing on this or that article, most of you should be at least learning biology and A&P on a college level before you start worrying about some hyper-specific personal trainer’s opinion on weight lifting.
An untrained individual is walking around in a body that has never been challenged. Once it is initially challenged, it will attempt to adapt to the situation. That may involve some body fat loss and some muscle gain. This process will only last as long as it takes the body to initially adapt to the stress against it.
Gaining muscle mass on a large scale is simply not something your body wants to do due to the greater energy expenditure. It is more interested in your survival, not how you look in spandex or designer swim trunks.
That means once you have passed this initial training period, it will become harder and harder to gain more muscle mass which is why calories must increase and the stress of resistance training must increase as well.
[quote]w-a-t-p wrote:
irongutted wrote:
Why people are so afraid of bodyfat when its so easy to strip it off?
…Yes but why put on the body fat in the first place you don’t need fat in order to gain muscle, so the cutting period then becomes a waste of valuable muscle growing time. no?
[/quote]
Ridiculous. If things were this simple, not one bodybuilder alive would EVER gain any extra body fat in the off season. Again, for those who think like this, please show your personal results as far as how muscular you are and how much fat you have lost AT THE EXACT SAME TIME.
Whilst this is true to a point, you certainly don’t need to gain too much fat. What you do need in order to grow muscle, is to be in calorie surplus, i.e. consume more calories than you need to maintain your weight (protein intake aside), and by doing this a little fat deposition is inevitable and nothing to worry about.
[quote]w-a-t-p wrote:
Whilst this is true to a point, you certainly don’t need to gain too much fat. What you do need in order to grow muscle, is to be in calorie surplus, i.e. consume more calories than you need to maintain your weight (protein intake aside), and by doing this a little fat deposition is inevitable and nothing to worry about.[/quote]
But that isn’t what you wrote before. Your previous post implied that none of this was necessary.
I would love to see some pictures of anyone who claims that the approach in weight lifting should be some attempt to lose body fat AND gain muscle mass all at the exact same time for the training life of the individual.
/Heh,
In answer to Johansson,
IMO it isn’t possible to gain muscle whilst being in an energy deficit due to the fact that muscle growth is an energy-requiring process. On the other hand though you can only lose fat if you are in an energy deficit, cutting whilst gaining muscle is to fluctuate your body between energy surplus and deficit at different times of the day, or on different days of the week, through diet and exercise.
However, if you are cutting extremely strictly, then it is not possible to gain muscle at the same time as losing body fat, as there is far too insufficient energy reserves for muscle growth. Here the priority is maintaining muscle mass. But, for the main, with gentle dieting you can successfully lose fat and grow, reaching your bodybuilding objective, looking and feeling great.
I would not recommend but it can be done, Don’t chase two chickens at the same time. As I said in the previous post you certainly don’t need to gain too much fat. consume more calories than you need to maintain your weight, This is what I do.
Also Professor, I’d really like to see photo’s of that.
[quote]w-a-t-p wrote:
I would not recommend but it can be done, Don’t chase two chickens at the same time. As I said in the previous post you certainly don’t need to gain too much fat. consume more calories than you need to maintain your weight, This is what I do.
[/quote]
You are 6’1" and 167.
You can’t flex bone.
It can be done, I’m a good example. 8 months into my new program and I’ve lost 15 LBS but gained 1" on my arms, 2.5" on my chest, lost 3" on my waist.
You’ll get faster results if you diet off the fat and then build muscle.
Although I am a noob, Ill take a shot.
It depends what you call lean in the first place, 18%? 15%? 9%?
In my experience I have not seen many guys able to put on size if they stay below 9%
I dont think you can really start puttin on any real gains until you get around 10 and 10 to 15 seems to be the sweet spot.
Now if you are 18% sure you can do both, but I bet the closer you get to 10 the faster the gains drop.
Dont shoot me, its just what I have seen being in the gym for the last 15 years.
I’ve been training for two years, and I’ve gained a good deal of muscle, but to my knowledge, I’ve lost very little of my body fat. It is probably best for somebody to just do workouts like cardio first, while looking skinny as hell and risking muscle definition loss, eating a proper protein heavy diet, and then if you get to a point you are satidfied with then focus on gaining mass. But remember the most important component is your diet and it will always impede any progress you make if you eat crap.
The problem I see on these types of threads is guys like Professor, Tiribulus, rainjack, and maybe a few others have a basic understanding of “optimal” vs “possible” while others don’t.
Is it possible? Sure, for the extremely meticulous, untrained/detrained, very gifted, and or the very young trainee it happens to SOME DEGREE.
Is it optimal? Hell no. Well I guess I should rephrase that with a disclaimer. "If your goal is soley to get “hawt abz” and look good with your shirt off then maybe it’s optimal. If your goal is to be a extremely large individual who everyone knows that you train and train seriously while you are wearing a sweatshirt then hell F’in no.
I’ve just never seen a very large person who got there without being either a genetic wonder(Paul dillet flex wheeler type) or at some point look like an offseason bodybuilder or powerlifter. The magazines like to sell this pipe dream and only show pictures of people 2 weeks out or within the 48 hour around contests when they are ripped to shreds, they don’t often show the off season guys where the real bodyBUILDING is done. Very few people are gaining muscle in contest prep(the type of dieting suggested earlier), the vast majority are putting on 20-50 lbs of offseason weight on, walking around softer than normal and dieting off to reveal those extra 5-25 lbs they just put on over the months-years.
If someone can gain significant muscle mass year in and year out with these clean bulks or whatever is the new term then more power to you, that’s fantastic. But until I see someone surpass the “bulking” guys in terms of muscle gains I’m not buying it for a LONG TERM strategy.
Decide on your goals and push the limits to what it takes to get there, I wish more people would look at my “what is your ultimate goal” thread for some insight into this.
[quote]stockli wrote:
Although I am a noob, <<< >>> in the gym for the last 15 years.[/quote]
I won’t shoot you, but your assignment for today is to think about how you expect people to respond to seeing both of these statements in one post from the same guy.
HAHA, yeah I know.
I mean Im new to this site, and many sites I have been to, lets just say they dont like new guys.