Body Fat's Effect On Gains

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
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As always, John Berardi shared with us some Pearls of Wisdom that I hope he, and the rest of the Forum, can expound on. This concerns the principle of fat gain and lean body weight gain as it relates to massive eating/re-feeding and your beginning bodyfat percentages.


I agree (and I most certainly have seen it in myself!) with what John presented in “Testosterone” ; that the higher your beginning bodyfat percentages, a greater percentage of your gains will be fat; the lower your beginning bodyfat percentages, a greater percentage of your gains will be lean body mass. Three questions:

  1. How dependent is all this on HOW LONG someone has remained lean or fat? (e.g. a “yo-yo” dieter may have finally reached a lean point, and decides to try massive eating, and BOOM! Huge water and fat gains in a short period of time, even though they are “lean”).


    2)What appears to be the basic physiology and biochemistry behind these findings?

  2. What have you found to be the best way(s) to shift these “tendencies” or “setpoints” toward lean bodymass gains?
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  1. Do the rules of the game change if a fat guy is bulking but using AAS?
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Mufusa:
Excellent questions and let me put what I personally experienced on here and try and shed some light on this aspect.

Back when I initially got into body-building during grad school I wanted to “cut-up”…not knowing ass about diet/nutrition. etc. I decided the best way to do this was to lift hard, do cardio, and eat no more than 2,000kcal/day as that is what the food lables say (you know what I mean)…I started at about 11% body fat and for approx 68 days I ate an average of 2103.5 kcal, while lifting heavy, and doing extensive cardio…not to mention other physical activities such as ice hockey and running around…this created a huge caloric deficit and it didn’t take long before i was becomming slightly nautious (one day) and noticed a strong smell to my urine after about three weeks—carbs during this time (the whole period, avg. about 50 or so a day)…Needless to say, I had no clue what i was doing, but i was ripping up, and ripping up big time–people noticed my face sinking, body fat dropping, skin color turing odd colors…all the while, it was reinforcing to know, becuase people also said you are getting bigger (obviously just more definition).

Anyway, it obviously became hard to maintain this level of caloric deprivation the longer it went on, esp. when i was around others who ate the “forbidden foods”…either way, i got so lean that finally one night, i couldn’t stand the pain anymore, and something clicked and I began to refeed, and refeed mostly clean as i had started reading about nutrition during this time…

So in regards to your question…I figure that I hit a plateau of body fat at around 4% and stayed there for most likely 15-25 days (all the while maintaining lifting and daily activity) before refeeding in mid July…The primary form of weight gain during refeed came as muscle, and I basically blew up…I think in regards to rebound fat gain, it depends on how clean you eat, and whether you maintain consistent training and bouts of cardio to partition the calories (during my refeed, i would run in the am for about 20-25mins)…In addition, while most people on this forum despise rice cakes and other high GI carbs, during a refeed they might actually be better than other fats (i.e., oatmeal etc.) becuase a) they are fat free and b) they are high GI—now, let me say this…De Novo Lipogenesis does not normally occur, and it probably is less likely to occur when you are lean as hell and refeeding on carbs, using partitioning agents such as ALA, Citramax and cardio…so, yeah the insulin spike rice cakes (and similar foods) cause is bad if you are trying to lose weight, but if you are lean as hell, we are not worried about oxidizing any fat, so eat the CHO in my opinion…during a refeed, its fat thats mostly easily stored, not the CHO…so spiking insulin IN THE PRESENCE OF FAT-that may cause the rebound fat gain…Also, keep in mind this…if you have trained High Intensity during your cut, your body is primed for an anaoblic burst…and what is the one macronutrients that provides the energy (most efficiently) to synthesize the new tissue…its CHO…therefore, eating more CHO, following a serious cut is productive…research has shown that after a semi-starvation period (which is basically what my cuts are) during refeed T levels and other anabolic hormones jump above normal basline levels…what better way to maxmize lean gains…no wonder there is so much anecdotal reports of peoples best gains during radical changes in diet…so, i think its a matter of a “clean” semi fat-free refeed (obvilusy you still get your EFA’s and some good fats–MCT’s another example) but i would say to minimize the fat—I am currently in the 23rd day of my latest cut, and my body fat is at 6.5%…its getting harder to continue (as i cut calories pretty low–i do watch muscle losses and adjust accordingly) so that also stimulates my hunger and drive to refeed. But, i know i am going to get flak for this, i am going to utilize rice cakes, in conjunction with other low GI carbs, as a MAJOR staple of my early refeed, and limit the fat…I don’t care about sending insulin wild per se, as when you are that lean, you don’t want to oxidize any more body fat…in addition, cardio stays the same at about 20-25mins per day per sesion to partition the hell out of the excess carbs…Anway, I have rambled long enough, and could add more, but I am sure this is enough…I have more thoughts on this, but, I’d be curious to hear what you and others think…

Bottom line…Certain fat free HIGH GI foods, are not that evil, and can also make you LOOK GOOD NEKID, if you know how to use them correctly

SO, in a bout ten days…Quaker stock is going to jump (for a bit, it’ll actually be rice cakes over oatmeal for a bit!!!), call me stupid, but it works.

Later Vain68

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This is something I would like to know the answer to as well. I got the impression from the article though that the setpoint moved more towards the lean side the longer that person stayed lean, so I suspect that if you lean out then start eating big immediately you’d probably start getting back to how you were.

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Very interesting thoughts, as usual. I think 1) is very true. A “lean” yo-yo dieters metabolism is likely to be messed up. Despite the body being lean, it takes a decent time span to adjust to a new body composition. Consequently, rapid weight loss may cause the body to behave like it would if it were still holding a lot more fat. Therefore, a lean individual may not necessarily put on quality mass if they’ve reached a “lean” state using starvation or yo-yo dieting? I would think 3) is pretty relevant to Fat Fast dieters. Its well known FF can radically adjust body composition in a short period of time, and rebounds have been well documented on this forum. Obviously solidifying results is very important. However, how can this be quantified, and what can be done to make fat losses from such drastic dieting easier to maintain?

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I was thinking along these lines the other day in light of something I read. Basically, one of my psych textbooks asserted that normal weight people have anywhere from 30 to 40 billion fat cells in most cases. An obese individual, on the other hand, has roughly 80 to 120 billion. When someone gains weight, their number of fat cells increases, which is a contrast to what we see in muscles via hypertrophy (increase in cell size). Certainly, fat cells can also expand. In other words, there are two ways for you to get fatter: more cells or bigger cells. Many scientists theorize that although fat cells obviously shrink, it is NOT possible to actually rid oneself of such cells once they exist in the first place. In other words, if you’ve been fat in the past, it’s going to be a lot easier to gain fat back. Why? It’s much easier to simply “refill” the stores than it is to create new stores altogether (although that does happen as well). I guess it almost parallels the excess skin situation so many “former fatties” face all the time. So, in practical terms, Mufusa, it means that people like us (I, too, was a fat kid; I was worse, though- I wore sweatpants to school!) need to keep our pasts in mind much more than those who have never been overfat. Obviously, a myriad of genetic factors also play key roles in this determination. It’s actually something that I’m facing right now. I’ve been cutting pretty hard for over five weeks now, dropping from 11.7% to 6.6% (as of yesterday). I still have some of that stubborn fat in the lower abs and obliques to lose before I reach my goal of 5%. I’m considerably worried NOT about whether I’ll reach my goal (failure isn’t an option), but instead about how I will approach my return to a normal carb intake. I have been at or below 100g for five consecutive weeks and, as a former pudge, figure that just looking at carbs will turn me into the Stay Puff Marshmellow Man (that’s assuming that I won’t pass out from excitement from seeing a giant bowl of oatmeal in front of me!). At the same time, I am very anxious to get more carbs in me for the sake of improving training energy and strength. Plus, I look and feel flat in spite of my lowered BF% (hopefully, carbing up will give me a fuller look). Essentially, I plan to go with a Don’t Diet type framework and reintegrate myself to the carb-inclusive lifestyle slowly (also referring to JB’s past Appetite for Construction column about coming off of Keto diets). I’ll be continuing 3-4 days of cardio per week while supplementing with 600-900mg ALA per day. I also have some chromium sitting around from a while back that I might include as well. From all this cutting and bulking, I have learned a valuable lesson, though. Eleven percent and above are simply too much for me. I seem to see strength and the girth of my arms going up and I get greedy. I continue to bulk while ignoring my growing midsection. From now on, I’ve decided to stay below 9.5% at all times while shooting for a 3:1 FFM:FM gain ratio during all bulking cycles. It will make cutting less of an ordeal, and quantify my goals strictly. As far as your question regarding the best ways to shift tendencies/setpoints toward lean bodymass gains, your guess is as good as mine. Let’s hope that we get something along the lines of the “Maintaining a Low Bodyfat Percentage” (I can’t remember the exact title) thread that came about earlier this year and benefitted us all so much. Anyone else have some good info to offer in this regard?

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Good question, Mufasa. Let me give this one a shot. First of all, NONE of us are born muscular, lean and with incredible knowledge of nutrition. While I was thin as a kid and teen, I certainly had to earn my muscular “badge” as I got older. There’s the handful of “genetic freaks” that are out there - but they’re few. People now look at me and think that I am one of those with a genetic edge - you know, the ability to eat alot of food and not “gain an ounce” (of fat). BUT, I’ve had to work my rounded tush off for this ability. So, let me say this - through trial and error of using my body as a guinea pig and the gym and kitchen as my laboratory (answer to your #2) I have learned that the longer I stayed lean, the easier it became (answer to your #1). In '95 - '96, I decided to get lean in between shows and stay lean. As well as start some sort of martial arts training (began in early '97). I saw changes quickly when I began this “quest” and once I began Karate, I saw some really great changes. I not only was gaining LBM, I was becoming leaner than I ever! And it wasn’t difficult. I’m a typical Sagitarian - I LOVE to learn. And I was learning something new about my body. I can get and stay lean AND gain muscle mass. Once I got divorced in '99 (long story…), I experienced a setback and stopped workng out for almost a year. Most people probably would balloon up during this time, but I didn’t . And once I went back into the gym and dojo, you know what? I got lean as quickly as before. So, I definitely believe, from personal experience, that the longer a person has stayed lean, the easier it becomes. But I’ve been weight training since 1983-84, and athletic since I was a wee kid. I believe that makes a difference, too. How long someone has been physically active. Another thought on diet: While I know alot of us here eat alot - I believe since we have a better grasp on nutrition - our food is mostly that, FOOD. Fresh food. And I think that makes a HUGE difference, too. While getting off our fat asses and being active matters - it’s also whatever is on the plate in front of you that matters, too. You can’t expect to get lean and massive while on a diet of “Lean Cuisines” or “SlimFast” shakes, I don’t care how hard you’re training.

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You guys are GREAT! Let me put in a little “mid-thread” summary and thoughts (because you guys have really stimulated my thinking!):


1)It SEEMS like there is a little “self-assessment” one needs to make at the end of a cutting/fat loss stage: am I REALLY lean or just “lean by the numbers?” In other words; the Fat Hardgainer or the one with a genetic pre-disposition to put on fat like Eric and I may be “lean” based on our measurements, but our PHYSIOLOGY is still over-fat (or MOST efficient at fat deposition AS OPPOSED to lean mass). I think that we have to be a little more meticulous in both our leaning and bulking phases. By contrast, you have a Shawn Ray, with YEARS of maintaining a lean body with a VERY efficient metabolism, especially at putting on lean mass (I put one of his bulking diets in my “Food Processor” software last night; that thing was a 10,000 cal, Isocaloric! The boy can EAT!), but you’ll never see him looking like a Dough Boy! If I ate 10,000 cals, I’d blow up like a blimp!


2) T-Bam and Big Bruva: You guys have brought up a point that I hope J.B. and others can expound on. I also think a key to an efficient “fat burning/muscle building” machine (like Ray and others) is OBtaining then MAINtaining a reasonable fat percentage RANGE for an extended period of time in order to change that setpoint and/or pre-disposition to fat deposition.


3)Vain brings up some cool points. Despite what all the supplement manufacturers would have you believe, food and Insulin is the most anabolic combo there is. (Even “Mag-10” will do you no good with a poor diet). So it makes sense to me (as Vain said) to a)STIMULATE insulin release b) Use CLEAN carbs to do it c)KEEP THE WORKOUT INTENSITY UP! Don’t become some “Donut Eatin’, Couch Slug” during rest/transition/re-feeding weeks! and (this is the point that I’d like to see more discussion on) d)FAT is probably the bigger culprit in re-feeding fat gain…(is that what you’re saying Vain…)I really thought that it was more simple, high glycemic carbs. But now, you’ve REALLY got me thinking, Bro…


Great thoughts, all! Let’s keep it going!

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I think it all depends on how severely one’s functions such as thyroid, adrenal, testosterone, and other endocrine functions have been compromised while on the diet and how quickly they are able to bounce back and to what extent once refeeding has begun. I would guess that a naturally leaner person would have a quicker return to normal thyroid and adrenal function after being on a diet and commencing refeeding vs someone who was naturally heavier and had dieted down to the same levels. Also this increase in thyroid and adrenal hormones would probably best be mediated by the reintroduction of large amounts of carbohydrates in the diet so your theory on higher gi carbs definitely makes sense there. Also we must not overlook the fact that a leaner a person gets, the more likely they are to have lost some muscle along the way, so the fact that more muscle is gained vs fat in an already lean individual might be masked by the fact that some of this muscle they are putting on might be “muscle memory” whereas someone whose at a higher fat % is more likely to be at their top end for the amount of muscle they’re holding so any increase in bodyweight is more likely to be a higher % fat.
Several years ago in muscle media Dan Duchaine wrote about an interesting theory of his. The idea is that under certain conditions the body can store amino acids. He gave examples of bodybuilders who diet strictly for contests and then in the weeks following the strict dieting put on a disproportionate amount of muscle mass in comparison to the amount of training they do and protein they consumed. Then again there may be something here where putting on muscle, even muscle from muscle memory after a dieting phase, may trigger a sort’ve hyper-growth hormonal response where the body thinks it’s growing again and responds accordingly… sort’ve like a male experiences when going through puberty.

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yea i realized that i had been a bit fatter than i should have been for a looooong time now. Been cutting 4 weeks but next time i go bulking i think my spin off of massive eating will be more like the anabolic diet— 1 or 2 carb and protein meals, a bunch of p + f meals… hopefully this will help.

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Mufasa, I don’t have any answers to your questions but I can share my experience. I used to be a former fatty and lost a lot of fat through dieting and lifitng weights. I got down to about 8% bodyfat and then tried massive eating with 3300 cals instead of the recommended 3800 cals. Well I gained a lot of fat around waist and midsection in about 3 weeks(probably about 8-9 pounds of fat). I am currently losing that fat and am going to try to eat a little above maintenance to gain lean body mass from now on.

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Mufasa, since you are using Shawn Ray as an example, here’s something for you to also think about. Shawn Ray was a high school athlete and he began competitive bodybuilding when he was 17. He’s around, what, 34-35 yrs. old now? Think about how long he’s been competitive and having to stay lean. He’s also from the '80’s school of competitors. Where drugs were not so relied upon as they are now. In other words, you had to have strong nutritional knowledge back then to be the top in any National amateur or Pro class. This all means that Shawn Ray is a perfect example of an answer to your Question #1. Oh and let me add, that cardio has never been the best way for me to get lean. Nope. Wierd, I know. For me, it’s the time of my last meal of the day. Seriously. Once I stop eating after 6PM - Boom - I start getting leaner.

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Also I think there are several good ways of getting the body to accept a lower bodyfat setpoint.
#1. When dieting try to avoid too much caloric restriction and allow most of the negative caloric balance to come from exercise. Institute periodic re-feed or higher calorie/higher carbohydrate days. Try to keep the metabolic rate as naturally high as possible.
#2. Keep an eye on functions related to overdieting such as thyroid…if you let them get too low during a diet then fat gain will be much more likely. Also consider avoiding metabolic stimulants and realize they will tend to eventually compromise the metabolism
#3. Do try to maintain a lower bf% for at least some time to allow the body to adjust. Not at necessarily the lowest point as this is probably not possible for most and will likely lead to illness, depression etc., but somewhere within a few lbs of that there should be a point that one can comfortably maintain. So for example if one dieted down to 5% bodyfat he/she might try to maintain a bodyfat of 6-8% for some time. For some this might be a few weeks, for others many months.
#4. Definitely the most important and one t-mag readers won’t have any problem with…LIFT WEIGHTS AND EAT!!! Once a lower bodyweight and bodyfat has been hit and calories are starting to increase again putting on muscle may trick the body into accepting a lower bodyfat % as natural. It seems there are schools of thought that believe the body adapts to a certain “bodyweight” and not necessarily a certain bodyfat %. This is the entire concept on the avoidance of traditional yo-yo diets. However, bodybuilders can use yo-yo diets to their advantage…put on muscle, lose fat, put on muscle lose fat etc…over time one gets bigger and leaner. And adding anabolic compounds only enhance this tendency.

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Very interesting information. Does anyone know whether starting MAG-10 cycle directly after a cutting cycle would help with keeping your metabolism re-set at the leaner levels, or would the large upswing in CHO intake recommended to maximize gains push you even more quickly back to your previous metabolic setpoint? Or would it work some other way? Thanks.

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Yea…Ray appears from all indications to be a “mass building/fat burning” machine…and you’re right; it has developed over TIME…


He had stated in the past that he stays NORMALLY at a “comfortable” 6-7% bodyfat, and eats and trains “instinctually”.


Can we just shoot the guy? (Just kidding! If you meet him, he’s actually a pretty cool guy!)

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I would think that would definitely make the job a lot easier. Anabolics increase the metabolic rate and are good at partitioning nutrients into the lean compartment and away from the fat compartment…so not only would this allow an individual to eat more food, thus increasing the metabolic rate back to a normal or hypernormal state, but it would also tend to ensure that any excess is more likely going to be used to build muscle tissue. I like the approach of using mostly diet and exercise alone to get lean as this enables one with more supplemental options once they obtain their desired state. It seems it would be a lot easier to maintain a given bodyfat % (although probably not as low of a bf%) if it were achieved naturally vs being achieved with the use of steroids, thermogenics, thyroid, etc. as sooner or later one has to cycle off these things leaving a somewhat compromised metabolism.