Not sure what happened there.
I meant Im new to this site, most sites I have been to are not friendly to new guys.
BTW, even after 15 years I still feel I have alot to learn…
I think most do.
You had me wondering
I agree that long term you wont gain muscle, lose fat on a consistant basis.
I’ve been 192 for the past 4 weeks. At the start of the 4 weeks I was 20% body fat, now i’m 17% body fat. Translates to gaining 6lbs of muscle and losing 6lbs of fat.
Now I do the test once a week, same time, same way every day by same person takeing the test. Results show a drop contually over the 4 weeks. Do I expect to continue to gain muscle and lose fat over the next year at the same rate? No.
I might see some small gains again, but if this was the case i’d be 10% body fat in 7 more weeks. I’d gain 13.5lbs of muscle while losing 13.5lbs of fat. Would I love that? Sure, do I bet on it? NO.
Theres a reason the mass amount of body builders bulk and cut the way they do. Cutting can be done slower, and gains can still happen, but then its not really cutting (in the sense of what most people think of cutting as) vs a diet/workout program.
I dont know if some of you guys even read what i wrote…
I AM NOT GOING TO USE THIS TECHNIQUE I AM JUST CURIOUS!
Im a mechanical engineer student, what i know about BB is what i learnt myself (from T-Nation, bb mags and books) because i dont study biology other than on my very precious freetime between collage, sleep and gym!
Ive been reading the articles here for long but somehow i decided to start posting.
Im not a weak guy, not BIG either but im still learning, so i guess none of you guys was born with 5000posts on T-Nation and 18" arms 
So its possible, but with limited sucess.
Thank you
[quote]Scott M wrote:
The problem I see on these types of threads is guys like Professor, Tiribulus, rainjack, and maybe a few others have a basic understanding of “optimal” vs “possible” while others don’t. >>>>>>[/quote]
My concern is for the rare new guy who actually has designs on maximizing his potential which is why I keep responding to this very oft asked question. I’m hoping for the guy who has visions of himself 10 years from now and not just the upcoming spring break.
I can’t reiterate strongly enough how haunted I am by the wasted years and the knowledge of how much bigger I’d be if I had followed my own advice consistently through my 30’s. The ability to build an exceptional physique is a physiological miracle and I just want to see more guys avail themselves of the opportunity while they have their prime years to do it.
“…the vast majority are putting on 20-50 lbs of offseason weight on…”
I agree that “clean bulking” is an elusive ideal, and ultimately a waste of effort, but I can’t help thinking that the vast majority don’t need 20 extra kilogrammes to put on mass.
A calorie surplus is absolutely necessary, but I think a lot of the bulk proponents let themselves go.
Most people can’t afford to be seriously overweight ten months out of twelve, and don’t have to.
[quote]ddinante wrote:
“…the vast majority are putting on 20-50 lbs of offseason weight on…”
I agree that “clean bulking” is an elusive ideal, and ultimately a waste of effort, but I can’t help thinking that the vast majority don’t need 20 extra kilogrammes to put on mass.
A calorie surplus is absolutely necessary, but I think a lot of the bulk proponents let themselves go.
Most people can’t afford to be seriously overweight ten months out of twelve, and don’t have to. [/quote]
Most people shouldn’t be dieting down every few months and should expect that if the goal is significant progress, it will take a few YEARS of working on size. That means relating what a COMPETING BODYBUILDER does in the off season directly to what some newbie should do doesn’t make much sense. Why would a newbie be dieting down that often? The ones who do will obviously make much less progress.
That means no one has written that lifters need to become “seriously overweight” to make progress so why do people keep jumping to this conclusion? Do you all really only see things in extremes?
You should, however, be able to understand that if someone has a goal of being a “ripped 220lbs”, they will first have to be a relatively softer 225-230-240lbs and then diet back down to it. There are few people with the genetics to only gain muscle mass as they reach that level.
That makes that comment you quoted correct.
We aren’t discussing what someone who isn’t serious might do as far as gaining too much body fat. Obviously if a serious bodybuilder puts on that kind of size in the off season, he was gaining enough muscle to justify it.
Most of the bodybuilders I have known who compete in NPC are up to 60lbs heavier in the off season with most of them weighing at least 30-40lbs above their competition weight when gaining.
Debate about whether that is too much for a competing bodybuilder is based on HOW THEY LOOK IN CONTEST SHAPE. The ones who do bulk up, especially the newer guys, aren’t disappointing anyone with their condition lately.
Also, just to make it clear, I am NOT saying that no one should ever diet down at all for years. There is a huge difference between “damage control” dieting and some newbie actually trying to get ripped every 3-4 months yet wondering why they aren’t making much progress.
A serious, competing bodybuilder can justify that sort of excess, but I can’t.
In other words, each person has to consider how badly, how soon he needs to get big(how big) and go from there.
In any case, no one is going to go from 160 lbs to 220 while maintaining 8-12% bodyfat all the way. Not bloody likely.
Im in the cutting phase right now, i measured my bf at 196lbs and it was 19% shame! My highest weight during bulking was 205, now im 190, so i thought ill go down to 10-12% bf and start building from there.
I might be pretty damn wrong about this.
Just remember, when you get into a caloric deficit (for cutting or any other reason) your body will stop putting on muscle (as a general rule) and start burning both muscle and fat to try and stay alive.
Once you go to calorie surplus again your body will be able to repair itself more efficiently, and help you put on more mass.
[quote]Johansson wrote:
Im in the cutting phase right now, i measured my bf at 196lbs and it was 19% shame! My highest weight during bulking was 205, now im 190, so i thought ill go down to 10-12% bf and start building from there.
I might be pretty damn wrong about this.[/quote]
I really hope you take this the way I mean it because your avatar is waaay to cool for me to want to offend you =]
Take a look at the last statement you just made. The central concern is FAT and you are most assuredly not alone. What some of us are saying to you is that if you plan to be actually large one day before the end of time you need to change your focus to your MUSCLES. If you and a thousand other guys would learn to do that with a bit of smarts and commitment the fat will take care of itself.
By that I mean if you just learn to train and eat until you are making good gains you will then know how much fat you have no choice but to carry while doing it. However much you have at that point is probably unavoidable for as long as you wish those gains to continue. Once you move to a reasonably advanced level with some useful understanding of how your own body responds you may be able to manipulate that a bit more, maybe not, but you will never know as long as FAT is the primary focus of all your thinking.
[quote]ddinante wrote:
A serious, competing bodybuilder can justify that sort of excess, but I can’t.
In other words, each person has to consider how badly, how soon he needs to get big(how big) and go from there.
.[/quote]
Exactly. People have to decide for themselves what they are willing to do and how bad they want to reach their goals. If someone is 170 lbs and “skinny fat” and wants to be 225 and lean the absolute fastest way to get there is to be an eating machine and train like an animal up to a huge but little bit soft 260 or so. This might take them 3-5 years to build that kind of muscle. How long does it take to strip of 35 lbs of fat? Certainely not 3-5 years, I would say for a pretty large muscular man 4 months tops. Some aren’t willing to go that route and I understand that but that is what I would classify as optimal, while the slow and steady never lose sight of the abs route is posssible, it would be WAYYYYYY slower, if they ever reach their goals at all.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Johansson wrote:
Im in the cutting phase right now, i measured my bf at 196lbs and it was 19% shame! My highest weight during bulking was 205, now im 190, so i thought ill go down to 10-12% bf and start building from there.
I might be pretty damn wrong about this.
I really hope you take this the way I mean it because your avatar is waaay to cool for me to want to offend you =]
Take a look at the last statement you just made. The central concern is FAT and you are most assuredly not alone. What some of us are saying to you is that if you plan to be actually large one day before the end of time you need to change your focus to your MUSCLES. If you and a thousand other guys would learn to do that with a bit of smarts and commitment the fat will take care of itself.
By that I mean if you just learn to train and eat until you are making good gains you will then know how much fat you have no choice but to carry while doing it. However much you have at that point is probably unavoidable for as long as you wish those gains to continue. Once you move to a reasonably advanced level with some useful understanding of how your own body responds you may be able to manipulate that a bit more, maybe not, but you will never know as long as FAT is the primary focus of all your thinking.[/quote]
Isn’t it the generally accepted notion that if a (at least fairly new) trainee eats right (clean food + reduced/timed carbs) and trains hard (with cardio), the body fat fat SHOULD melt off?
I am hearing a lot of conflicting advice lately. On the one hand, I hear some trainers and coaches saying that you can build muscle and lose fat at the same time (OBVIOUSLY I am talking about the people who have some fat to lose and major muscle to gain). They say that “just get stronger, eat healthy, and everything will fall into place”.
At the same time, I hear from others, that it isn’t physiologically possible.
Note that I am NOT talking about anyone remotely ‘advanced’. Anyone ‘advanced’ who has bodyfat to lose is probably a human blast furnace due to the muscle they have, and fat loss would be a simple and painless process of carb reduction and calorie trimming. I am talking about the people who just look like sacks of shit.
[quote]Mys7icaL 0n3 wrote:
<<< Isn’t it the generally accepted notion that if a (at least fairly new) trainee eats right (clean food + reduced/timed carbs) and trains hard (with cardio), the body fat fat SHOULD melt off?
I am hearing a lot of conflicting advice lately. On the one hand, I hear some trainers and coaches saying that you can build muscle and lose fat at the same time (OBVIOUSLY I am talking about the people who have some fat to lose and major muscle to gain). They say that “just get stronger, eat healthy, and everything will fall into place”.
At the same time, I hear from others, that it isn’t physiologically possible.
Note that I am NOT talking about anyone remotely ‘advanced’. Anyone ‘advanced’ who has bodyfat to lose is probably a human blast furnace due to the muscle they have, and fat loss would be a simple and painless process of carb reduction and calorie trimming. I am talking about the people who just look like sacks of shit.[/quote]
Any person with even minimal understanding in this game is going to be very stingy with the use of the word “impossible”. Again, untrained and especially overweight individuals will lose body fat and gain muscle for a while. If they are eating even decently compared to how they were before and training hard, no matter what specific program they are working, this will happen to the vast majority almost by accident assuming no pathological issues, which are rare.
Once they reach a certain level of leanness, which is different for different people, getting leaner will be at the expense of further gains. All this is with no special attention being paid to cutting.
Trying to pin numbers, time periods etc. to all this is impossible except in the broadest terms due to the fact that no 2 people are exactly alike.
This doesn’t have to get MUCH more complicated or require a GREAT DEAL more precision until you are approaching the genetic ceiling of your potential gains. During this time how much fat you have to carry should be, in my opinion, dictated by what you have to eat to maintain optimal gains. Has anybody heard this before.
Gonna be honest with you guys. I wanna be big ok ( im serious), but i can admit i wanna look good now to, the cutting partly for the summer, for the fun in experiencing a cut, and i thought building at 10% is better than 20% because i will avoid unnecessary bf and its fun to look at least quite good during a bulk.
I know all of you will complain about the looking good part… but it is fun when you get girls attention, i think everyone here can admit that.
Now some of u might think im only doing this for the girls but NO! i am not… the girl part is just a fun bonus on the side.
Lots of shit talk, ON topic now, if i cut to 10% will the building part suffer much compared to building at 20%???
No replies…
Gotta know the answear of this question:
Is there a big difference in putting on mass at lean 8-13% and soft 20%?
[quote]Johansson wrote:
No replies…
Gotta know the answear of this question:
Is there a big difference in putting on mass at lean 8-13% and soft 20%?[/quote]
Forget about numbers and just find the level of intake that gets you growing, that’s the point. Whatever body fat that brings you is how much you’ll have to carry for a while. There is HUGE difference between 8-13%. Most people aren’t going to grow at 8%, in fact practically none and most don’t need 20% to grow optimally, but that has nothing to do with you. Only you can learn how your body responds to what.
If the term “body fat percentage” wasn’t in beginners vocabulary how much farther does everyone here think the average guy would be towards his goals?
My guess, a lot.
Try it and see.
[quote]Johansson wrote:
No replies…
Gotta know the answear of this question:
Is there a big difference in putting on mass at lean 8-13% and soft 20%?[/quote]
More important is how much fat are you happy to carry when you’re gaining? Honestly, my observations lead me to believe that the more fat you have the better your muscle/fat gain ratio and muscle gain altogether. Forgetting everything you’ve learnt by reading for a second, who do you honestly think has an easier time putting on more fat, someone already quite fat or a really lean guy? Assume genetics etc are equal.
The thing is though you have to have a few measures to curb fat gains if you’re eating for muscle gain properly that won’t interfere with the fat gains. Green tea, a couple a days a week of pre-breaky cardio, etc.