[quote]FISCHER613 wrote:
@ derek Pavel was Special Forces and trains Special Forces combat and conditioning now.
I think he knows his way around a fight
Just read his book before giving thoughts on a author after reading some guy on a internet paraphrase what he says[/quote]
I don’t really care what he was or is. And I’m sure he can fight but don’t think taking on a bodybuilder-type that outweighs you by over 100 lbs would be a walk in the park either.
By the way, I have three of his books.
In my opinion, the bodybuilding stuff being bad argument is not because what bodybuilders do or dont, but because of people who are average gym guys who train based on what bodybuilders do or, more often, based on what they think bodybuilders do.
Bodybuilding training is produtive for bodybuilders(obviously), for a BBer competing in a show it doesnt make sense sacrifice his size in order to improve in rock climbing, distance running or whatever… the same way an athlete shouldnt sacrifice performance to look better.
One thing interesting i observed is that some of the strongest fighters are the guys who enjoyed weight training for aestetic purposes from a long time. But usually these guys peform better in the upper body than lower body… as if the BB style training was enogh for the upper body but lacked some more athletic stuff for lower. Just an observation.
I dont believe you can get bigger without getting strong, but that you can get bigger while getting stronger in a exercise that doest transfer that well for a given activity (like big legs from a very heavy leg press, that doesnt improve sprinting as much as a not so good squat).
By the way i hate the argument that x or y exercise its bad because in the real world… in a fight… bla bla, when many of the guys who say that even train fighting (at least seriously).
Nate:
I still think that Pavel has some good stuff training wise. But i dont get his atitude of attacking BBing, ok its not optimal for fighters etc… but leave the guys there doing what they want, why not attack volleyball or triathlon for not being good for fighting? And why write about BB training? Much better if he writes just about the strength and sports stuff, that he seems to know a lot.
[quote]derek wrote:
FISCHER613 wrote:
@ derek Pavel was Special Forces and trains Special Forces combat and conditioning now.
I think he knows his way around a fight
Just read his book before giving thoughts on a author after reading some guy on a internet paraphrase what he says
I don’t really care what he was or is. And I’m sure he can fight but don’t think taking on a bodybuilder-type that outweighs you by over 100 lbs would be a walk in the park either.
By the way, I have three of his books.[/quote]
When it comes to fighting, size isnt the end-all be-all factor.
[quote]BigKDawg wrote:
When it comes to fighting, size isnt the end-all be-all factor.[/quote]
Seriously? Wow, I’m glad you told me.
(do you really think I was trying to say otherwise?)
[quote]derek wrote:
BigKDawg wrote:
When it comes to fighting, size isnt the end-all be-all factor.
Seriously? Wow, I’m glad you told me.
(do you really think I was trying to say otherwise?)[/quote]
Its the Ninja factor. If you got mad ninja skills…
NO ONE CANT STOP YOU.
Because for the general public, it is not necessary to do twelve gazillion exercises and reps if they just want to get stronger and in shape faster.
If most gym goers knew all they had to do was perform compound lifts and very little if any specialization exercises 3-4 days per week, they would see more results vs a high volume, high rep routine of bbing.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I just can’t seem to understand, nor should I, why Alwyn Cosgrove, Chad Waterbury, Pavel Tsatsouline, and others continue to bash bodybuilders and describe how their training “has limitations”.
Well being that some natural bodybuilders reach offseason weights of 230 to 240# while at average height and drug aided bodybuilders reach offseason weights of 265 to 300#, I would like to know just how limited their training is.
Perhaps if they took up more “unlimited” ways of training, we would see offseason bodybuilders at weights of 350 to 400 and natural ones at offseason weights of 265 to 300!
Maybe Dorian Yates would have been 350 lbs offseason if he upped his training frequency back to the frequency he used when he started (the magic three times per week). I have to stop now. I just become too evil with this stuff. :)[/quote]
Again, you’re comparing apples and… hell, telephones or something.
Is bodybuilding training limited? Well, no, not for a bodybuilder. But it sure as shit is for a fighter.
Those three particular writers are either martial artists or write many programs for martial artists and combat athletes.
For a combat athlete, a bodybuilding routine is as useless as tits on a bull. Even though I don’t agree with everything they say, they are cerainly going to know FAR more about strength and conditioning for athletes and martial artists than any bodybuilder will, and their programs often reflect the specifics that a fighter needs as opposed to any other athlete.
[quote]gainera2582 wrote:
If most gym goers knew all they had to do was perform compound lifts and very little if any specialization exercises 3-4 days per week, they would see more results vs a high volume, hip rep routine of bbing. [/quote]
Here’s to not being an average gym goer… Ever!
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Is bodybuilding training limited? Well, no, not for a bodybuilder. But it sure as shit is for a fighter.
[/quote]
But they bash bodybuilders themselves, I’ve read several examples over the years.
It would seem that those authors are comparing apples to whatever. It appears as though they don’t get why a bodybuilder needs to train like a… bodybuilder.
I don’t see too many bodybuilders or bodybuilding-specific authors bashing any other activity or training methodology.
I wrote this earlier…
I do think his methods have merit. The points you used are good examples.
However, when I’m bodybuilding, here’s what I do:
I train for strength. It may be in the 3-5 rep range and it may be above 12 reps. I use 90% compound movements and I sometimes train to failure. I use some form of split, usually it’s upper/lower or something similar.
I stretch, use foam rollers and other recovery tools.
I don’t know how much I’d need to change if I were to train for MMA or anything else you mentioned. Sure there’s lots of specific stuff I’d ADD to my routine so my overall volume would change but what’s wrong with heavy weight and compound movements?
Too many people actually believe that bodybuilding is about overly tanned, oiled up guys waving tiny dumbbells around while wearing bikini briefs when they train.
Being strong and flexible is ALWAYS a good thing and that’s how bodybuilders train (if they have a clue and the majority of us who’ve been around DO).
Look, I was on Plymouth County Sherriffs Dept. I and several deputies were trained in defensive/offensive tactics for a team that went after deadbeat dads who owned back child support.
I was chosen for the team because of my size. And soon, after I had a few weeks of takedowns and restraints under my belt, I was asked to demonstrate what I knew in front of one of my Captains using Ian, a long-time blackbelt and all-around bad ass from the Dojo.
We set up the cop/bad guy scenario and he looked me in the eye and whispered to me “I’m not gonna make this easy for ya”.
So I begin to “escort the prisoner” and he begins to REALLY fight me. A seasoned blackbelt against me, a guy with two week’s training.
I took that guy down so hard he told be I almost ripped his arm out of its socket. Despite his proven ability, I was able to use a few simple moves along with lots of strength and bodyweight to eliminate the threat and handcuff him. I don’t think I ever saw anyone hit the mat face down that hard before!
I also compete in Highland Games. The only significant change I make is I ADD the 6 or 7 events two days per week. That may require dropping the volume of my bodybuilding gym work but that still only represents a chnage of focus, not a total revamp and overhaul of my training.
If you need to run a mile in whatever time, then add that to your training. If you need to practice BJJ, then ADD that to your training.
Bodybuilding is about being big and strong. Besides exploring caves, how would being a much stronger, larger version of yourself ever become a liability? Or does bodybuilding make you slow and musclebound?
[quote]derek wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Is bodybuilding training limited? Well, no, not for a bodybuilder. But it sure as shit is for a fighter.
But they bash bodybuilders themselves, I’ve read several examples over the years.
It would seem that those authors are comparing apples to whatever. It appears as though they don’t get why a bodybuilder needs to train like a… bodybuilder.
I don’t see too many bodybuilders or bodybuilding-specific authors bashing any other activity or training methodology.
[/quote]
Fair enough. For that I have no answer, and I agree. I say it often, different strokes for different folks.
Absolutely nothing; that’s primarily what I do.
However, it’s unlikely you’re going to be able to train four days a week in an upper and lower split while going to MMA or specific MA classes every week along with doing conditioning and possibly working to support yourself.
EXTREMELY unlikely.
This is my theory that I’ve formed over the past couple years of doing MMA and a traditional martial art- absolute strength and size is the least important thing. IT’s good to have, but it’s just not as important in a competetive fight as specific skills and conditioning.
I’m lucky to get in two full body workouts a week involving weights- if I’m concentrating on fighting, 5 three minute shadow boxing rounds are going to behoove me far more than benching and squatting.
So the short answer is, you’d have to change nearly everything.
Agreed. I’ve always admired guys with the dedication and commitment to get that big… that’s why I lift.
I believe you. And sure, that can happen… anything, and everything, will and can happen in a real confrontation.
But Cosgrove and Pavel aren’t writing for the streetfighter, they’re writing for the sport fighter. The streetfighter is probably a smoker who’s drunk a good part of the time. He probably doesn’t lift weights and thinks those that do have small dicks. “Conditioning” is a joke to’em.
But that’s because streetfights rarely go on for more than two or three minutes before someone definitely loses. In that case, strength, brutality, weapons, and, oftentimes, the willingness to hit first, will rule.
Sport fighting is different. If you’re a bodybuilder, the odds are is you’ll gas out immediately after a three minute round. You don’t train to fight in a ring, so that’s not really what you can do.
Just as lifting for bodybuilding and lifting for martial arts are two different things, so are sport fighting and streetfighting. Being a cop, you can likely do the latter; unless you train for it, then you can’t do the former.
Bodybuilding and sport fighting don’t mix. You need too much skillwork and conditioning, as I said before. You’re either going to be lose weight and be a great fighter, or be a big scary crappy fighter cause he spent too much time in the weightroom.
To be a bodybuilder, you need to lift. To be a fighter, you need to fight. You don’t need to lift to be a fighter, and you don’t need to fight to be a bodybuilder. Like I said, apples and telephones.
I would never say it’s a liability. But figure in weight classes, too. I’m about 175 lbs at 5’7. I get described most often as “stout”. Most guys who are my height fight at 130-154. The goal is to be as strong as you can at the lowest weight, not just the biggest and strongest.
Again, different goals.
The thing is that I do not have a problem with Pavel, the man himself, as well as any of the authors that have made fun poking jabs at bodybuilders. I have learned quite a bit from Chad Waterbury, Charles Poliquin, and Alwyn Cosgrove. I have Chad’s book and the first “technical” training book I ever bought was the Poliquin Principles at 20 years old, 8 to 9 years ago or so. That is what lead me to T-Mag. If I had not picked up that book, which lead me to a ton more information, I probably would not be where I am today in training.
I also have two of Pavel’s books and two Alwyn Cosgrove’s books. They are very informative! Pavel’s stretching books have helped me tremendously as have Eric Cressey’s and Mike Robertson’s Magnificent Mobility, although these latter two have never bashed bodybuilders. I have incorporated quite a few of these men’s recommended stretching and mobility drills into my bodybuilduing program for warmup and on off days. I credit staying injury free for quite some time secondary to this. I let all the jackoffs in the gym give me funny looks while I do them. They might think twice or remain ignorant while they experience ailment after ailment and injury after injury.
The thing is that I take what I need from the “functional” and performance crowd what I need to be a better bodybuilder. I do not bash them. Yet they feel free to bash us.
If they do not like bodypart splits and feel that they are not useful for athletic training and strength and conditioning…well…they shouldn’t use them.
I do not even get offended by these writers. I simply bring this issue up because I find it comical. MOST people in gyms today, whether unsuccessful or successful, are using bodypart splits and take information from bodybuilding magazines. Granted, most of these individuals would be better off with a lower and upper body split or a full body routine since they are beginners or do not have the strength, coordination, and initial size base to reap the benefits of a bodypart split. Others simply did not organize their lives to make training a priority. So, in these cases, the bodybuilding method is unwarranted as well.
I just do not seem to understand why such people bash bodybuilders. They all seem to give credit to powerlifers though, since powerlifters “perform”. If one were to look through the top powerlifter’s routines, they would see that besides the set and rep schemes for the deadlift, bench press, and squat and their variations, the rest of such routines are nothing but bodybuilding!
This is especially true for some of the bench press specialists. They have some sort of scheme (linear or conjugated) for the bench press. Meanwhile they train their legs, arms, and upper back exactly the same as a bodybuilder would. Check out Ryan Kennelly’s book. Look at the programs of Sebastian Burns, Andy Fiedler, Shaun Lattimer, Ed Coan, Kirk Karwoski, Mike Wolf, and many others. They train pretty much like bodybuilders except for their work in the competition lifts. Clearly such training is not hampering their performance.
I’d like to enter my first natural show next year. I remember a personal trainer lecturer at a certification class I took years ago when I did some personal training at a commercial gym. The guy said something to the effect of “BBers are good and all but if yuo get them on a playing field…” I thought to myself “but bodybuilders do not step foot on a playing field and why should they?”
And this whole new business of relative strength. Yes, powerlifers, to succeed in a weight class need to remain in that weight class while getting stronger. However, I have observed that most men will not move shit, regardless of how neurally efficient they become. Most guys, who do not have ideal levers and exceptionally efficient nervous systems, are going to have to add quite some mass to be considered strong. And what is the best way to add mass? The bodybuilding method, which is why many powerlifters use it. Most dudes do not have the gifts of 165 to 200 lbers, a la Lamar Grant and Eric Cressey.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
If one were to look through the top powerlifter’s routines, they would see that besides the set and rep schemes for the deadlift, bench press, and squat and their variations, the rest of such routines are nothing but bodybuilding! This is especially true for some of the bench press specialists. They have some sort of scheme (linear or conjugated) for the bench press. Meanwhile they train their legs, arms, and upper back exactly the same as a bodybuilder would. [/quote]
These are not for bodybuilding purposes. Your body is ment to work as a whole, everything should be strong for best results in any lift.
Its when people dont do these other “bodybuilding” exercises that injurys come in. Lack of chest work = pec tears. Lack of bicep work = bicep tears. Lack of back work means small lifts and imbalanced. Lack of leg work will hold your bench, squat, and deadlift back.
Now when you see a powerlifter doing a exercise to shape his muscles, then you can bitch about bodybuilding. Untill then, its just being the best powerlifter he can be.
well i have the book beyond bodybuilding and its great, i used his methods to go from 5 pullups to 20 easy pullups and to go in pushups from 6 to 45 .
it’s a great educational book if u’re a powerlifter, olympic lifter, power bodybuilder.
he talks about basic tried and true excercises i didn’t know what a clean and press was untill i read that book and when i did my shoulders exploded.
Even great people can be wrong about one or two things.
Pavel and Other authors who are great at one or two things, need to say stuff like that to pump themselves up. Otherwise everybody would just say look at your skinny ass, you can’t train me. So a natural disclaimer is, bodybuilding sucks and I don’t do it.
2)Bodybuilders lose on the playing field…what sport is this? Ben Wallace has damn near no real basketball skills, Tiger is one of the few benching 315 on the golf course, and anyone who says the biggest strongest guy on the football field loses is outright stupid. Technique ain’t winning marathons, elite track and field is heavily based around leg bodybuilding programs…and it shows.
3)Who is this that says bodybuilders are slow, and how many bodybuilders have they competed against in any sport? Pudgy muscular guys at the gym don’t count. I’ve competed in many recreational sports against bodybuilders and I can tell you they are usually fast as hell. The problem is that they are fast for a very short time, or only fast one or two times.
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Even great people can be wrong about one or two things.
Pavel and Other authors who are great at one or two things, need to say stuff like that to pump themselves up. Otherwise everybody would just say look at your skinny ass, you can’t train me. So a natural disclaimer is, bodybuilding sucks and I don’t do it.
[/quote]
Oh wow, where to start with this.
Do you have any idea of the strength levels that Pavel has? He may be skinny, but he’s strong as shit- go look up his numbers.
Waterbury is a pretty big dude period, as I recall, and Cosgrove’s size may be limited due to the fact that… oh, you know, he spent some years fighting cancer instead of other people.
Get a clue before you start attacking.
You smokin’ crack motherfucker?
“The more chiseled guy wins?”
So now you’re telling me that having low bodyfat means you’re a bodybuilder? Really?
Because most of the guys who I know on this site dwarf professional boxers as far as size go… and I think they would be extremely offended if you called the 5’8" 154 pound Floyd Mayweather a bodybuilder because he’s cut.
Not to mention, professional boxers don’t use a bodybuilding weightlifting schedules. Many of them don’t lift at all.
Honestly, this whole statement you made really doesn’t make any sense on any level.
To my understanding, they are most often based on strength protocols- not bodybuilding splits. Even then, everyone has a different way of training.
If you think that marathon runners and elite track and field athletes are going for as much hypertrophy as they can, I’d bet your mistaken. They’re the top of the gene pool… it’s my guess that you could have some of these motherfuckers doing pushups (like Herschel Walker) and he’ll be bigger and stronger than you or I would ever be.
And none of the people you mentioned look like bodybuilders. A pro bodybuilder dwarfs a pro football player in terms of muscle size… sure, they are huge guys, but football players need to train for speed and stamina also.
When Ronnie Coleman runs a 4.4 let me know.
Again, you really have no idea how any of those people train, so I’d say watch what your saying.
Well genius, you answered your own question. How many sports can you be “fast as hell” and then be allowed to crap out and get gassed the rest of the time?
None. Maybe bowling.
When you have to do massive amounts of skill work along with conditioning, your size will suffer. Maybe your strength won’t as much, but you’re not going to get as big as a guy who’s just in the gym 24/7.
Hell, there’s a massive discrepancy between the way people train for INDIVIDUAL sports- if that’s not uniform, why the hell would bodybuilding and athletic performance be uniform?
Bodybuilders are not athletes. They don’t compete in a sport for a living, and therefore don’t need to train like they do.
I am not saying they are not “athletic” per se, or that they don’t far exceed the measure of the average person, or even that if they wanted to be incredible at a sport, that they couldn’t. All I’m saying is that again, like always, you motherfuckers are comparing apples with telephones.
Hey, can we argue next about who would win a fight, Bruce Lee or Lemmy?
Not trying to stir the pot but Matt Hughes’ weight-training was about as much a bodybuilding routine as I’ve ever seen.
I’d actually have to say that MY bodybuilding routine would look more like what you’d expect of a fighter than his is.
His (current as of last year) routine may very well be an anomaly in the MMA scene but you can’t argue with his abilities and the fact the they were’t being hampered by it.
He went on about what times and on what days he did what–I have it at work somewhere–but IIRC it was Monday, Chest/shoulders/triceps, Wednesday, Back/biceps/abs and Friday Quads/Hams/calves. He did it all including flyes, curls, leg extensions etc. And it was noted that he was preparing for a fight in a few weeks.
This would be worked in between all his technical work and conditioning.
Like I said though, maybe he’s one in 10,000 but it seemed to work for him and I’m not enough of an expert to know whether he’s a great fighter BECAUSE of his routine or DESPITE it. Maybe someone else here is.
The Pavel detractors seem to know a lot about him and own a few of his books.
Ease up. Read it, and take away from it what you want to. Read a lot. Train more.
[quote]Mega Newb wrote:
Bricknyce wrote:
If one were to look through the top powerlifter’s routines, they would see that besides the set and rep schemes for the deadlift, bench press, and squat and their variations, the rest of such routines are nothing but bodybuilding! This is especially true for some of the bench press specialists. They have some sort of scheme (linear or conjugated) for the bench press. Meanwhile they train their legs, arms, and upper back exactly the same as a bodybuilder would.
These are not for bodybuilding purposes. Your body is ment to work as a whole, everything should be strong for best results in any lift.
Its when people dont do these other “bodybuilding” exercises that injurys come in. Lack of chest work = pec tears. Lack of bicep work = bicep tears. Lack of back work means small lifts and imbalanced. Lack of leg work will hold your bench, squat, and deadlift back.
Now when you see a powerlifter doing a exercise to shape his muscles, then you can bitch about bodybuilding. Untill then, its just being the best powerlifter he can be.[/quote]
Huh?
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Do you have any idea of the strength levels that Pavel has? He may be skinny, but he’s strong as shit- go look up his numbers.
[/quote]
Didn’t you just prove my point…No bodybuilder would ask him to train based on how he looks. “I’m not into bodybuilding, I’m lift a 25lb kettlebell a thousand times and martial arts” Thanks for proving my point… Oh yeah he’s strong as shit? I notice you didn’t state any numbers, where did you get your info from the latest Pavel Advertisement?
[quote]
Waterbury is a pretty big dude period, as I recall, and Cosgrove’s size may be limited due to the fact that… oh, you know, he spent some years fighting cancer instead of other people.
[/quote]Further proving my point, thanks again.
You must be pretty unsuccessful if you think simply following a bodybuilding routine will automatically make you into a musclular bodybuilder. Floyd Mayweather has gone up several weight classes and he didn’t do that by simply throwing punches…Also thanks for proving my point I didn’t even name any boxers, but obviously you think Floyd Mayweather is the more cut and musclular guy in his fights, and he wins them. Thanks again
Many of them lose to ones that do so what are you saying?
Do you even know what a bodybuilding routine is? Or what this “strength protocol” you claim they use is? Doesn’t sound like it.
“Bodybuilding Splits”? What split is this that every bodybuilder follows but athletes who lift don’t?
Yet the biggest strongest player tends to be the most successful…Strahan, Romanowski, Urlacher
Actually I have a very good idea of how many of them train, and every one of them followed a bodybuilding routine at some point in there career and at some point in getting to the level they are at.
Again simply following a routine will not make you the size of these pro-bodybuilders. However a pro football player or any athlete is generally 10 times more successful after going through a period where they are following bodybuilding type routines.
Exactly why a SMART trainer would train his athletes with bodybuilding AND conditioning workouts along with skills. A guy whose too slow is about as useful as a guy who craps out. So again what are you saying?
Good thing Pavel isn’t really as one sided as his fanboys are when it comes to bodybuilding, because he definitely uses various bodybuilding strategies in his training.
Grease the groove is basically what 90% bodybuilders did with the bench press when they started out.
Half of his workouts with kettle bells are what bodybuilders did dumbells long before he was ever around.
You really should learn what bodybuilding is and what a bodybuilding routine is before you make bogus claims like it’s not useful in sports. Because like I said before damn near every successful athlete has used a bodybuilding routine at some point to take them to the top. Being a bigger and stronger you always puts you in a better position to succeed.
One point most seem miss is: getting stronger lifting weights increase performance.
Do you really think that if you increase 100lbs your squat and bench, it will make some difference for your punching power if you trained them in the chest and in the leg day, in the upper and lower days, or did both in a full body workout?
Now, i question how useful is for a fighter do cable crossovers and flies after the bench press, but if he still gets stronger in the core lifts, the worst can happen is that he wastes some of his time, but he will not magically perform worse because he stepped in the bodybuilding zone…