[quote]bradden wrote:
i have a similar problem, i strengthened the shit out of my rear delts and that helped a ton but its still there, but i’ve discovered my rhomboids are weak as well, and if you stare at my posture you can see my right shoulder sits slightly forward even when i push it all the way back… so im hitting the rhomboids[/quote]
lots of activity in the pec minor and biceps can do the same thing
Rounded shoulders are an indication of too much horizontal pressing. You guys need to antagonize your movements.
Are you able to lie down, straighten your arms, and put your upper arms close to your head while they are lying on the ground as well, without discomfort or tightness in the shoulder? If not you definitely need work on your infraspinatus.
It is amazing the control the infraspinatus exerts on the proximal end of the humerus. Some other areas you could look to is the long head tricep origin and the outer pec area.
What I recommend is using a lax ball to work these areas, I know most people that lift frequently will have adhesions in the outer pec, and almost definitely infraspinatus soft tissue issues. For awhile I had problems with my bench, it just didnt feel great, or mechanically correct. The infraspinatus and outer pec soft tissue work turned things around unbelievably. I was thinking about trying to write an article to submit to T-Mag, it is that big a difference. Whether this is what is causing your shoulder pain or not, I dont know. But I havent found many of my clients for which these techniques didnt make a drastic difference.
When kneading the infraspinatus, try working on the belly of the muscle, which lies on the shoulder blade itself. If you hit the right spot and you have issues there, you will feel a shooting pain and the whole muscle will light up. You need to work this pain out.
After you fix this issue, which I suspect you have, you will be AMAZED at the exercises that are affected by the infraspinatus. I would go as far as to say the infraspinatus effects any upper body exercise. Curls, Skullcrushers, anything… it is that vital. You will probably notice the biggest difference with bench presses, CG Bench, overhead presses, pullups and rows. Though remember, if you are dont CG or Flat Bench, there is a very good chance you have outer pec adhesions which you will need to work out to get the chest into the movement. The infraspinatus will allow for internal rotation so you can properly align your humerus with the pec muscles’ line of pull.
Now you may have injured your shoulder, and this may be too late I dont know how bad it is. But if you take it easy for awhile, the whole pain free ROM thing, and use these techniques, it should help.
Seriously, drop barbell benching for awhile and switch to pushups and dumbbells for stability work. As others have mentioned, start pulling more than you push with horizontal movements like rows and face pulls. Do higher reps(12-15) for a bit till it starts getting better. In addition, get some soft tissue work done around your shoulder and neck area to help with recovery.
[quote]gainera2582 wrote:
Seriously, drop barbell benching for awhile and switch to pushups and dumbbells for stability work. As others have mentioned, start pulling more than you push with horizontal movements like rows and face pulls. Do higher reps(12-15) for a bit till it starts getting better. In addition, get some soft tissue work done around your shoulder and neck area to help with recovery. [/quote]
Pushups and DB Press should have a greater ROM than barbell bench when each movement is done correctly. I would think he want to avoid the extra ROM. Stability is essential, but I would think scap pushups and face pulls are better options.
Regardless, stay away from benching for a while.
[quote]bcbasketball wrote:
gainera2582 wrote:
Seriously, drop barbell benching for awhile and switch to pushups and dumbbells for stability work. As others have mentioned, start pulling more than you push with horizontal movements like rows and face pulls. Do higher reps(12-15) for a bit till it starts getting better. In addition, get some soft tissue work done around your shoulder and neck area to help with recovery.
Pushups and DB Press should have a greater ROM than barbell bench when each movement is done correctly. I would think he want to avoid the extra ROM. Stability is essential, but I would think scap pushups and face pulls are better options.
Regardless, stay away from benching for a while.
[/quote]
Which is why anyone who does rehab should test an exercise out before programming it. I wouldnt imply doing heavy db presses or weighted pushups unless someone built up to that weight and volume.
USe your head and write in your journal for your program. There should be no question of what you are trying to accomplish, the plane of movement(s) you are trying to strengthen, and when you decide to deload and take it easier for a week or so.
ok sorry to hijack, but i feel my pain is in a slightly diff area, it runs on top of my shoulder horizontally across down to where the muscle bellies begin to come up, sawa pt for it and they gave me stretches, the one that defranco uses in his upperbody warmup the rotator stretch and i used that and have good flexibility in my right arm whcih is the problem arm but its still there. my left arm is less felxible but pain free, i am a lefty if that means anything. Help with this?
also i do more pulling than pushing, laid off heavy shoulder movements, bench with a tuck and closer grip as to no pinch the area, i do lots of rotator work and rear delt work, face pulls pull aparts, laterals etc…
anythoughts that havent been said so far?
[quote]bignate wrote:
ok sorry to hijack, but i feel my pain is in a slightly diff area, it runs on top of my shoulder horizontally across down to where the muscle bellies begin to come up, sawa pt for it and they gave me stretches, the one that defranco uses in his upperbody warmup the rotator stretch and i used that and have good flexibility in my right arm whcih is the problem arm but its still there. my left arm is less felxible but pain free, i am a lefty if that means anything. Help with this?
also i do more pulling than pushing, laid off heavy shoulder movements, bench with a tuck and closer grip as to no pinch the area, i do lots of rotator work and rear delt work, face pulls pull aparts, laterals etc…
anythoughts that havent been said so far?[/quote]
sounds like the supraspinatus, which can be irritated by just about everything as well… is it just the top of the shoulder or is it also sore to the touch on the front side, like right above the clavicle?
Def sounds like the supraspinatus. I train with an ART practitioner who tells me an issue in an rotator cuff muscle can refer pain to anywhere around the shoulder joint. However, since you point to the supraspinatus and it is the most often injured rotator cuff muscle, I suspect that is what it is.
[quote]bignate wrote:
ok sorry to hijack, but i feel my pain is in a slightly diff area, it runs on top of my shoulder horizontally across down to where the muscle bellies begin to come up, sawa pt for it and they gave me stretches, the one that defranco uses in his upperbody warmup the rotator stretch and i used that and have good flexibility in my right arm whcih is the problem arm but its still there. my left arm is less felxible but pain free, i am a lefty if that means anything. Help with this?
also i do more pulling than pushing, laid off heavy shoulder movements, bench with a tuck and closer grip as to no pinch the area, i do lots of rotator work and rear delt work, face pulls pull aparts, laterals etc…
anythoughts that havent been said so far?[/quote]
Go back and read what I posted earlier (not the above post, the post on the previous page), it has helped me and many of my clients immensely. I’ve been training others for 6 years and training myself for 10 or so, and it is has made a more resounding impact on my training than anything else I have come across.
Why are you bench pressing heavy 3x per week. If high level powerlifters are only able to handle 1 heavy session per week, why do you think you can handle more?
Solution:
Heavy session with barbells
Speed session with barbells
Moderate session with DB’s, neutral grip, possibly floor press.
Read dave tate’s articles
Read shoulder savers.
Bench with a close grip and elbows tucked.
Cut back on pressing volume, and increase isolation movements for tricpes, shoulders and back.
Lots and lots of horizontal pulling.
I’ve had something similar in the past. An old friend and competitive power lifter showed me proper bench technique (a huge part of it was narrowing my grip) and I’ve never had the problem in the 11 years since. I’ve done some similar programming with bench before involving 3 days w/ heavy loads >80% and haven’t had the shoulder pain issue since then. I think some of the problems people run into (beyond technique) with high frequency training of major lifts is the assistance work. It seems to me that when lifting like this, the fatigue and limit strength of these assistance muscles must be more closely monitored.
Just something I learned through trial and error- meaning making the stupid mistake of neglecting theses things and coming up with little nagging injuries. I’m now a big believer in mixing in some prehab exercises here and there. Don’t know how much they help, but they take little time and effort and they couldn’t hurt.
[quote]challer1 wrote:
bignate wrote:
ok sorry to hijack, but i feel my pain is in a slightly diff area, it runs on top of my shoulder horizontally across down to where the muscle bellies begin to come up, sawa pt for it and they gave me stretches, the one that defranco uses in his upperbody warmup the rotator stretch and i used that and have good flexibility in my right arm whcih is the problem arm but its still there. my left arm is less felxible but pain free, i am a lefty if that means anything. Help with this?
also i do more pulling than pushing, laid off heavy shoulder movements, bench with a tuck and closer grip as to no pinch the area, i do lots of rotator work and rear delt work, face pulls pull aparts, laterals etc…
anythoughts that havent been said so far?
sounds like the supraspinatus, which can be irritated by just about everything as well… is it just the top of the shoulder or is it also sore to the touch on the front side, like right above the clavicle?
[/quote]
exactly it, what you described is the exact pain i have. Also why would it happen to the more felxible side?
It worked for me.
[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
bignate wrote:
ok sorry to hijack, but i feel my pain is in a slightly diff area, it runs on top of my shoulder horizontally across down to where the muscle bellies begin to come up, sawa pt for it and they gave me stretches, the one that defranco uses in his upperbody warmup the rotator stretch and i used that and have good flexibility in my right arm whcih is the problem arm but its still there. my left arm is less felxible but pain free, i am a lefty if that means anything. Help with this?
also i do more pulling than pushing, laid off heavy shoulder movements, bench with a tuck and closer grip as to no pinch the area, i do lots of rotator work and rear delt work, face pulls pull aparts, laterals etc…
anythoughts that havent been said so far?
Go back and read what I posted earlier (not the above post, the post on the previous page), it has helped me and many of my clients immensely. I’ve been training others for 6 years and training myself for 10 or so, and it is has made a more resounding impact on my training than anything else I have come across.
[/quote]
read it, i use a baseball and lean against a wall and roll the whole shoulder from the side, then the front which is where i can feel the pain alot and then i roll the pec, is this sufficient or are you descirbing something more
many thanks
Ok guys, I got an x-ray and the joint where the collarbone meets the shoulder was slightly inflamed along with the AC joint. It wasn’t anything bad, but It was a pain that was foreign to me. My orthopedist (who did all 3 of my knee surgeries so I really trust his opinion) said that I should just monitor it on a day/day basis, but limit the range of motion in pressing exercises. Example: Floor Press or Lockouts instead of bench press.
[quote]bignate wrote:
Shadowzz4 wrote:
bignate wrote:
ok sorry to hijack, but i feel my pain is in a slightly diff area, it runs on top of my shoulder horizontally across down to where the muscle bellies begin to come up, sawa pt for it and they gave me stretches, the one that defranco uses in his upperbody warmup the rotator stretch and i used that and have good flexibility in my right arm whcih is the problem arm but its still there. my left arm is less felxible but pain free, i am a lefty if that means anything. Help with this?
also i do more pulling than pushing, laid off heavy shoulder movements, bench with a tuck and closer grip as to no pinch the area, i do lots of rotator work and rear delt work, face pulls pull aparts, laterals etc…
anythoughts that havent been said so far?
Go back and read what I posted earlier (not the above post, the post on the previous page), it has helped me and many of my clients immensely. I’ve been training others for 6 years and training myself for 10 or so, and it is has made a more resounding impact on my training than anything else I have come across.
read it, i use a baseball and lean against a wall and roll the whole shoulder from the side, then the front which is where i can feel the pain alot and then i roll the pec, is this sufficient or are you descirbing something more
many thanks[/quote]
If you are on the meat of the deltoid itself, its prob not going to do too much, at least from what I have experienced. You need to be on the back side of your body, on the shoulder blade itself. You will need to play around a bit, but when you find it, the whole infraspinatus will light up. Even people who seemingly have very good internal rotation have issues in the infraspinatus, which, when fixed, will make the joint that much more mobile. Also, I would use a lax ball, (it should be a tacky type of rubber, not slippery, if slippery it wont work) Then you need to do the same on the outer pec. You should be doing all of this on the floor.
[quote]ebomb5522 wrote:
Ok guys, I got an x-ray and the joint where the collarbone meets the shoulder was slightly inflamed along with the AC joint. It wasn’t anything bad, but It was a pain that was foreign to me. My orthopedist (who did all 3 of my knee surgeries so I really trust his opinion) said that I should just monitor it on a day/day basis, but limit the range of motion in pressing exercises. Example: Floor Press or Lockouts instead of bench press.[/quote]
Have you checked your outer pecs and infraspinatus for adhesions? If you dont do soft tissue work, you almost definitely have issues in these places which a lax ball will solve in a jiffy. Read the above posts, and my post on the previous page. I’ll answer any questions you have on the subject. While you will be doing soft tissue work in areas different from where you have pain, the lack of mobility in the areas I mentioned above could definitely cause your problem.
[quote]challer1 wrote:
bradden wrote:
i have a similar problem, i strengthened the shit out of my rear delts and that helped a ton but its still there, but i’ve discovered my rhomboids are weak as well, and if you stare at my posture you can see my right shoulder sits slightly forward even when i push it all the way back… so im hitting the rhomboids
lots of activity in the pec minor and biceps can do the same thing [/quote]
Dont mean to steal the thread, but yeah I completly agree, that was actually the first thing I worked on and stretching out my pecs and biceps has helped but didnt solve the problem. My rhomboids are definatley weak however in comparison to my chest, shoulders and the rest of my back so im going to give that a whirl and see what happens and go from there.
[quote]bradden wrote:
challer1 wrote:
bradden wrote:
i have a similar problem, i strengthened the shit out of my rear delts and that helped a ton but its still there, but i’ve discovered my rhomboids are weak as well, and if you stare at my posture you can see my right shoulder sits slightly forward even when i push it all the way back… so im hitting the rhomboids
lots of activity in the pec minor and biceps can do the same thing
Dont mean to steal the thread, but yeah I completly agree, that was actually the first thing I worked on and stretching out my pecs and biceps has helped but didnt solve the problem. My rhomboids are definatley weak however in comparison to my chest, shoulders and the rest of my back so im going to give that a whirl and see what happens and go from there.[/quote]
Got ya. I do scap retractions 1x on the seated row for my bench press. I find a rather high volume works best (set of 20+ reps). Not really doing it for shoulder pain though… this exercise really seems adds weight to the bar for me!