[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
yea I agree at 5’11, 185 is on the smaller side. Especially for kickboxing. Tend to be a lot of tall lanky guys that enjoy exploiting that advantage. I’m an inch smaller than you and I could probably make 145 if I was better at cutting.
[/quote]
You guys make me feel so skinny, I’m 6ft and fight at 140 haha
Also if we’re talking of amazing striking
Not many people know about Kem, but he’s awesome, way better than Buakaw…
I wonder if OP has even been back here to read all this good advice/discussion?
[quote]Robert A wrote:
Well sure, knowing what you know now. Of course if you could do that you would be writing from your mansion payed for with sports betting. Also that would mean that a high school FightinIrish may have got booted off the football team because the coach/team BENCHES.
[/quote]
Oh sure, would have happened. But the faulty teaching lasted much longer than the football career… fucked me until about 25, when I gave up on benching altogether.
Like you said, if only I knew then…
hahahahahahahahahaa it’s gonna be a while for those vikings my man…
People who say stop lifting weight for a combat athlete are pretty ridiculous. I can say from experience that strength training can increase your ability to strike. (obviously.) whether it’s muay thai elbows and knees, kicks or punches. It would be wise for the average person to lift weights to avoid injury in the course of normal life. (putting out the garbage, etc) let alone for those taking BLOWS from a trained athlete. On top of the fact that weight training is essential to increase strength and power, it’s also a good idea to have a built up body to protect against blows. having a thick neck might not help you elbow/knee harder, but it will surely help you take one of them to the head. Having built up abs will help you take a blow to the core. As long as the associated gains in muscle come along with gains in anaerobic strength/recovery/endurance, cardio and speed.
hard work also builds endurance so you don’t feel so tired in your workout schedule every week. lumberjack work and such. Try to work your heart until it is about 52 beats per minute as well, when your heart is strong and slow, endurance or recovery comes naturally. You want to eat like a fighter as well. An egg for breakfast might be okay but when I wake up for break-fast I eat like 600 calories of oatmeal, a serving of salmon or steak (or protein shake)2-3 fruits, a couple pieces of whole wheat bread. That’s really how much you have to eat to recover from hitting the heavy bag, doing your road work, lifting weights, etc. 4000-5000, calories 200-300grams of protein every day. Or you can expect to have no energy, to feel as if you are over-training.
[quote]IronClaws wrote:
People who say stop lifting weight for a combat athlete are pretty ridiculous. I can say from experience that strength training can increase your ability to strike. (obviously.) whether it’s muay thai elbows and knees, kicks or punches. It would be wise for the average person to lift weights to avoid injury in the course of normal life. (putting out the garbage, etc) let alone for those taking BLOWS from a trained athlete. On top of the fact that weight training is essential to increase strength and power, it’s also a good idea to have a built up body to protect against blows. having a thick neck might not help you elbow/knee harder, but it will surely help you take one of them to the head. Having built up abs will help you take a blow to the core. As long as the associated gains in muscle come along with gains in anaerobic strength/recovery/endurance, cardio and speed.
hard work also builds endurance so you don’t feel so tired in your workout schedule every week. lumberjack work and such. Try to work your heart until it is about 52 beats per minute as well, when your heart is strong and slow, endurance or recovery comes naturally. You want to eat like a fighter as well. An egg for breakfast might be okay but when I wake up for break-fast I eat like 600 calories of oatmeal, a serving of salmon or steak (or protein shake)2-3 fruits, a couple pieces of whole wheat bread. That’s really how much you have to eat to recover from hitting the heavy bag, doing your road work, lifting weights, etc. 4000-5000, calories 200-300grams of protein every day. Or you can expect to have no energy, to feel as if you are over-training. [/quote]
Lifting weights does not massively increase your punching power. The results are minimal for the time you put into it.
And if there’s one thing that muscle ISN’T going to do, it’s build up your endurance for boxing (or any striking art.)
For the majority of non-pro fighters, that time could be better spent on technique.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]IronClaws wrote:
People who say stop lifting weight for a combat athlete are pretty ridiculous. I can say from experience that strength training can increase your ability to strike. (obviously.) whether it’s muay thai elbows and knees, kicks or punches. It would be wise for the average person to lift weights to avoid injury in the course of normal life. (putting out the garbage, etc) let alone for those taking BLOWS from a trained athlete. On top of the fact that weight training is essential to increase strength and power, it’s also a good idea to have a built up body to protect against blows. having a thick neck might not help you elbow/knee harder, but it will surely help you take one of them to the head. Having built up abs will help you take a blow to the core. As long as the associated gains in muscle come along with gains in anaerobic strength/recovery/endurance, cardio and speed.
hard work also builds endurance so you don’t feel so tired in your workout schedule every week. lumberjack work and such. Try to work your heart until it is about 52 beats per minute as well, when your heart is strong and slow, endurance or recovery comes naturally. You want to eat like a fighter as well. An egg for breakfast might be okay but when I wake up for break-fast I eat like 600 calories of oatmeal, a serving of salmon or steak (or protein shake)2-3 fruits, a couple pieces of whole wheat bread. That’s really how much you have to eat to recover from hitting the heavy bag, doing your road work, lifting weights, etc. 4000-5000, calories 200-300grams of protein every day. Or you can expect to have no energy, to feel as if you are over-training. [/quote]
Lifting weights does not massively increase your punching power. The results are minimal for the time you put into it.
And if there’s one thing that muscle ISN’T going to do, it’s build up your endurance for boxing (or any striking art.)
For the majority of non-pro fighters, that time could be better spent on technique.[/quote]
this ^
If you say so. Power is the combination of speed and strength anything that makes you stronger will allow you to hit harder. To quote myself: “As long as the associated gains in muscle come along with gains in anaerobic strength/recovery/endurance, cardio and speed.”
weights won’t build up endurance for punching that is more based on anaerobic power/recovery but you can do others things that will. Using a maul or sledge hammer with a weighted vest for a couple of hours, sprint intervals, skipping, a brutal general conditioning regime, running 6 miles a day, uh using the heavy-bag endlessly?
I train 6 out of 7 days a week and I hit with massive power and authority. Gaining say 20pounds of muscle while maintaining your speed and fitness will make you hit harder, if only because you’re heavier. But it will make you hit harder because you’re STRONGER.
Also not all weight routines are meant to build muscle, some are designed to build strength through working the tendons and ligaments which wouldn’t negatively effect anyone’s endurance or power.
That’s like telling a sprinter that strength training regime is useless. It’s not. I am not saying replace skill work with weights, I am not saying replace sparring/roadwork/heavy-bag/speed bag/agility bag work with weights. I am saying including a strength routine with all of that is beneficial and there is plenty of room for too.
I hit the heavy-bag 4-5 times a week, run 6 miles a day, weights 3 times a week, shadowbox, hit the mantis mitts, speed bag, sledge hammer almost every day. what should I replace my strength training with, more heavy-bag work? more speed bag? more sparring? there’s plenty of room for it in a serious fighter’s workout schedule.
There’s no reason you can’t work on technique and have a dedicated strength training regime on top of a lot of other things as well (like road work, skipping, etc) and it is important for any fighter pro or not. (I would agree that there is no substitute for heavy-bag work and skill work though. they need to be worked perpetually)
edit I understand you could be the strongest most powerful person on earth but that without skill/technique your striking would still lose a great deal of kinetic energy. I understand that technique is all important because I had a large leap in my ability to punch when I first read “Explosive punching and aggressive defense” once you become skilled, once you are a master of kinetic linking a strength training regime will allow you to hit harder, but training technique isn’t so all consuming/energy wasting that a strength program couldn’t be included side by side right from the start.
[quote]IronClaws wrote:
If you say so. Power is the combination of speed and strength anything that makes you stronger will allow you to hit harder. To quote myself: “As long as the associated gains in muscle come along with gains in anaerobic strength/recovery/endurance, cardio and speed.”
weights won’t build up endurance for punching that is more based on anaerobic power/recovery but you can do others things that will. Using a maul or sledge hammer with a weighted vest for a couple of hours, sprint intervals, skipping, a brutal general conditioning regime, running 6 miles a day, uh using the heavy-bag endlessly?
I train 6 out of 7 days a week and I hit with massive power and authority. Gaining say 20pounds of muscle while maintaining your speed and fitness will make you hit harder, if only because you’re heavier. But it will make you hit harder because you’re STRONGER.
Also not all weight routines are meant to build muscle, some are designed to build strength through working the tendons and ligaments which wouldn’t negatively effect anyone’s endurance or power.
That’s like telling a sprinter that strength training regime is useless. It’s not. I am not saying replace skill work with weights, I am not saying replace sparring/roadwork/heavy-bag/speed bag/agility bag work with weights. I am saying including a strength routine with all of that is beneficial and there is plenty of room for too.
I hit the heavy-bag 4-5 times a week, run 6 miles a day, weights 3 times a week, shadowbox, hit the mantis mitts, speed bag, sledge hammer almost every day. what should I replace my strength training with, more heavy-bag work? more speed bag? more sparring? there’s plenty of room for it in a serious fighter’s workout schedule.
There’s no reason you can’t work on technique and have a dedicated strength training regime on top of a lot of other things as well (like road work, skipping, etc) and it is important for any fighter pro or not. (I would agree that there is no substitute for heavy-bag work and skill work though. they need to be worked perpetually)
edit I understand you could be the strongest most powerful person on earth but that without skill/technique your striking would still lose a great deal of kinetic energy. I understand that technique is all important because I had a large leap in my ability to punch when I first read “Explosive punching and aggressive defense” once you become skilled, once you are a master of kinetic linking a strength training regime will allow you to hit harder, but training technique isn’t so all consuming/energy wasting that a strength program couldn’t be included side by side right from the start.[/quote]
Whatever you say champ.
Most people work with very limited time, and few fighters can afford to spend all day training. They’ve got to make the most of the time they have.
Twice a week lift. Maybe. At most. Any more ain’t worth it.
But I can tell you one thing… if I was a pro or serious amateur, I wouldn’t bother lifting. Ever. There’s no amount of technique work that’s too much when you’re stepping in the ring.
If you have limited time work technique. If you are training like a serious fighter train everything.
Also I am not sure what type of technique you are talking about. Let’s assume you did have time to train for a pro or serious amateur fight. What “technique” would you be working for all the hours of the day? That you’d really need to put strenth training to the side? You keep talking about “technique” but besides strength there is also punching endurance, anaerobic power, anaerobic endurance, anaerobic recovery, and cardio. Are you giving these up to endlessly train “technique” too?
I am just not sure I understand what aspect of technique are you training for 10 hours a day? shadow-boxing, heavy-bag work(speed/agility bag as well), sparring, weaving/bobbing, balance training, hand-eye coordination? The ability to kinetically link energy as well as your body will allow? You can do all those things and more and include 3 days a week for a strength training routine. Esp if you have the free time.
Show me what your perfect 7 day workout schedule would be for a striker.
If most fighters have “limited time to train” they better find a job breaking rock with a sledge hammer or cutting down trees in the forest because other than that they are going to be lacking power. To be honest I am not even sure how you plan to build impressive speed without strength training. For example sprinting and running both help boxing including how hard you can punch and speed in the ring, a serious strength training regime will allow you to run and sprint better. If you’re road work is a lot better you will hit harder. (assuming you’ve learned proper technique).
FTR I believe that a sensible amount of strength training has value. However, in my experience, raw hand speed has very little to do with strength training (the fastest hands I ever saw - or didn’t see - were on a 120lb female olympic fencer). As an aside, trees are generally cut down with chainsaws and rocks are busted with hydraulics/explosives. Just sayin’.
Well you still break down houses with a sledge hammer and use axes and mauls to split wood. (when you aren’t lazy and buy a wood splitter). Gene tunney style head out to some lumberjack camp for 2 years. But you get my point, any labor intensive job.
[quote]IronClaws wrote:
If you have limited time work technique. If you are training like a serious fighter train everything.
Also I am not sure what type of technique you are talking about. Let’s assume you did have time to train for a pro or serious amateur fight. What “technique” would you be working for all the hours of the day? That you’d really need to put strenth training to the side? You keep talking about “technique” but besides strength there is also punching endurance, anaerobic power, anaerobic endurance, anaerobic recovery, and cardio. Are you giving these up to endlessly train “technique” too?
I am just not sure I understand what aspect of technique are you training for 10 hours a day? shadow-boxing, heavy-bag work(speed/agility bag as well), sparring, weaving/bobbing, balance training, hand-eye coordination? The ability to kinetically link energy as well as your body will allow? You can do all those things and more and include 3 days a week for a strength training routine. Esp if you have the free time.
Show me what your perfect 7 day workout schedule would be for a striker.
If most fighters have “limited time to train” they better find a job breaking rock with a sledge hammer or cutting down trees in the forest because other than that they are going to be lacking power. To be honest I am not even sure how you plan to build impressive speed without strength training. For example sprinting and running both help boxing including how hard you can punch and speed in the ring, a serious strength training regime will allow you to run and sprint better. If you’re road work is a lot better you will hit harder. (assuming you’ve learned proper technique).[/quote]
So no fighter who doesn’t strength train can develop speed and power?
Shit son, you better go call Sugar Ray Robinson, I think you need to tell him this.
Speed and power are not reliant on strength training, in any way, whatsoever. They are products of perfect technique, a solid understanding of range, good timing, and proper weight transfer.
And believe it or not… yea, you can practice technique 10 hours a day. And if you do practice technique 10 hours a day, you’re going to be a hell of a lot better fighter than the guy that spends that time in the weightroom.
There so much failure in this post I don’t know what to make of it. But the one big piece is that fighters, until they reach the top and are making enough money, can’t afford to train all day. They must make the most of the time they have, and that’s time that is wasted if they’re lifting excessively.
Strength training for boxing and striking reaches a point of diminishing returns pretty quickly. It ain’t a sport like MMA where being stronger in the weightroom really translates to the sport, and it tires you out. You’ve only got so much energy in a day.
Is it just me or is there a big influx of loud, inexperienced people posting on this site all of a sudden?
“So no fighter who doesn’t strength train can develop speed and power?”
I never said that. What I said that was all things being equal being stronger makes you a better striker because with added strength you can develop more power.
I never claimed that. you can develop great power and kinetic energy without a hardcore strength training regime, but once again, it will help.
Power is the combination of strength and speed. Strength is part of that equation. Any fighter will hit harder, with more power if they are stronger. Sugar Ray was an amazing striker, if he was stronger he would have hit harder. (assuming speed and skill remained the same). That is hard to argue from any standpoint. In the same way that any fighter that increases their speed will hit harder, any fighter than increases their strength will as well. As long as that increase doesn’t come at too high of a cost.
“And believe it or not… yea, you can practice technique 10 hours a day. And if you do practice technique 10 hours a day, you’re going to be a hell of a lot better fighter than the guy that spends that time in the weight-room.” (or y’know, boxing gym with weights in it)
In the real world throwing a powerful punch requires more than technique. It requires speed, strength, endurance, anaerobic power and a high anaerobic threshold/recovery rate. You need to train those things as well. But besides that, you can make incredible strength gains working out 3-4 hours a week in the “weight-room” you don’t have to spend all or even most of your time there. You can also be doing sports specific movements as well.
“Strength training for boxing and striking reaches a point of diminishing returns pretty quickly. It ain’t a sport like MMA where being stronger in the weightroom really translates to the sport, and it tires you out. You’ve only got so much energy in a day.”
I am not talking about being stronger in the weight room between two people making a difference in how hard they punch. I am talking about an experienced trained athlete, who knows technique, who trains skill and technique a lot, will only improve in the ring with a strength routine. I’ll give you a few examples:
You can sprint/run better with a strength-training routine. All things considered if your road work is more impressive you can work your cardio, v02 max, anaerobic strength, capacity and recovery time better. I want to see some kind of reasonable objection to THAT. (meaning it eventually turns over into how well you can repeatedly throw full-fledged powerful punches without wearing out of steam. Punching something at speed is comparable to sprinting at speed on the anaerobic system) strength training allows you to work cardio and anaerobic systems a lot better. That’s a fact.
Endurance. Weaving and bobbing in a crouch is exhausting on the quads. strengthening the quads with high-rep squats helps strengthen these muscles and makes it physically easier to do again and again in a match.
Anyway there’s a million reasons why strength training can make you a better striker. probably why most boxers do strength train, whether it’s with a medicine ball, or throwing a rock repeatedly or some other nonsense. It helped me run a 4 minute mile, to sprint faster, which allows me to box better. To move faster for that matter. (strength training helps speed. whether or not some great boxers could do without it doesn’t meant it wouldn’t have benefited them either)
You can say that a strength training regime doesn’t make someone strike better as well. But earnie shavers hit pretty hard and he did a lot of lumberjack work and sledge-hammer work, gene tunney, rocky marciano, a lot of boxers who did their share of “strength training” whether it was on weights or not.
For example using a sledge hammer/maul to bust through things seems to have more translation to punching power than most of the lifting I do. Sprinting seems to translate better into punching power as well. So I understand what you mean, to a point. but most boxers do strength train with med balls, so you’re in-correct.
As to my own inexperience. I have the physique of a boxer, haha. When I punch things I generate the type of kinetic energy to crush and shatter bone probably on par with the force generated by the avg person with a base-ball bat or sledge hammer. Most of my muscle is fast-twitch developed from working over the heavy-bag like it’s my bitch. So, I am not in-experienced at generating massive bone-crunching strikes. I train 6 out of 7 days a week to hit harder, faster, to generate more power. When you do that every-day, for over a year, you are not “inexperienced” at striking.(that’s just how long I’ve been training 6-7 days a week) I am talking from a place of certainty if you question that ask to see a video of my working over the heavy-bag. Hell, take a look at my profile picture. I didn’t develop Jack Dempsey-esque back musculature from pawing lightly at the heavy-bag.
Not sure how shadow-boxing with weight or weighted gloves. running with a vest. working the heavy bag with a weighted vest. etc could hurt either. Whether you “need” them is irrelevant. whether it makes you a more well-rounded fighter is. Not to mention a serious puncher will discard what aspects of his strength-training regime don’t have much cross-over, on top of that while one exercise in the gym might not have much cross-over for one boxer, it may for a second.
This is a good article on the subject: RossTraining.com - Strength Training For Fighters
[quote]IronClaws wrote:
When I punch things I generate the type of kinetic energy to crush and shatter bone probably on par with the force generated by the avg person with a base-ball bat or sledge hammer. Most of my muscle is fast-twitch developed from working over the heavy-bag like it’s my bitch. So, I am not in-experienced at generating massive bone-crunching strikes. I train 6 out of 7 days a week to hit harder, faster, to generate more power. When you do that every-day, for over a year, you are not “inexperienced” at striking.(that’s just how long I’ve been training 6-7 days a week) I am talking from a place of certainty if you question that ask to see a video of my working over the heavy-bag. Hell, take a look at my profile picture.[/quote]
I’m hoping you are not being serious that you think you have bone shattering power.
How many pro fights have you had?
I have been in no fights against a professional opponent. None-the-less I don’t really need to, to know what kind of power I hit with. When you follow Jack Dempsey’s technique and dedicate years of your life to technique and then on top of that over a year of your life to the most brutal and grueling training regime imaginable. By that I mean no job, no life, no responsibilities out side of training for over a year.
So again, you can question my ability to hit with force but I can post videos of myself hitting the heavy bag with all the qualities that would make up a bone-crunching punch. (I have broken bone outside of a professional fight. long before I started working the heavy-bag though. I wouldn’t hit someone without a glove, now)
If you want to suggest this or that about my striking, you should probably see it in action first. I’m more than willing to post a video of me striking the heavy-bag, you can tell me if they connected on someone’s face if they would break bone. I don’t think I hit that hard, I do, my entire physique is a response to the demands of punching at force and speed. the back muscle I have for example. form follows function.
I do plan to fight though. Hence the training. (The only reason I haven’t fought yet is that I wish to fight at a higher weight-class) and it takes a lot of training to go up 10pounds or more and maintain sprint speed, etc. before I did any training and was an out of shape mess I could smash bone. so yeah, I can now when I do nothing but train to be able to.
I would like to see a video.
I agree. I think in boxing especially, the effectiveness of raw strength is severely underestimated, and there’s still an attitude that it’s going to be one or the other, and that you could become so muscle-bound and slow…
Oh and for the OP. You are a muay thai fighter not a boxer or etc. When you work the clinch, your grip strength becomes very important. Your ability to hold the opponent in a place that you want, against their will, is no easy task. Holding someone in the clinch, setting them up, even pushing them around to a better position before striking with the knee, that requires incredible hand and wrist strength. The stronger your hands the easier it will be to trap people in the clinch and pummel them.
You can post a video if you want.
To be honest, I don’t think that people should be giving advice about how to become a better fighter if they don’t compete themselves. But hey, people can choose for themselves who they take advice from. Personally, I only listen to advice from people who have a proven fighting record.
Not trying to put you down, and I wish you luck with fighting in the future.
[quote]JonnyTMT wrote:
You can post a video if you want.
To be honest, I don’t think that people should be giving advice about how to become a better fighter if they don’t compete themselves. But hey, people can choose for themselves who they take advice from. Personally, I only listen to advice from people who have a proven fighting record.
Not trying to put you down, and I wish you luck with fighting in the future.[/quote]
I thought he said he didn’t fight pro, not that he didn’t fight…
But, would be interested to get the full IronClaws resume.
Exactly, I said I didn’t fight pro, not that I haven’t hit people or disabled them near instantly in real life. However I do realize there is a big difference between that and a real opponent who trains the way that I do.
(I also would not hit another human being with a closed fist without a boxing glove anymore unless it was a life or death situation)
#2. I haven’t been in paid fights (which is all being a pro fighter means.) but that doesn’t mean I don’t have a host of physical accomplishments that are near mind-numbing. I can run a 4 minute mile, any fighter would do well to be fit enough to replicate that. I have a heart-beat of 52 beats per minute, any fighter would do well to replicate that. I can hit the heavy bag with tremendous force, any fighter would do well to take pointers if they can’t.
Hell even a fighter who is a way better fighter could take advice if I can hit the heavy bag longer or with more power, maintain or recover bursts on the HB better, whatever. You don’t just take pointers from better fighters, you take pointers from people who are capable of doing amazing physical feats that would improve your own fight game, whether they can put it together or not.
(though to be fair I was thinking better striker, or athlete, than fighter. That’s a hard one to give advice about. Also there’s some boxing trainers I would take advice from, who weren’t professional fighters themselves.)