Over the UFC

Training
41

[quote]maverickbu wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
I don’t understand why guys don’t set up their leg kicks with either a jab and/or feint with the hands. Thiago Alves(especially in Koscheck fight) is the first that comes to mind of who actually does this. Actually,Shogun did a few times when he landed leg kicks on Machida…and when he didn’t use his hand feints…he still used the proper footwork and angles.

Another one is Tyson griffin used this in his fight with hermes franca, in fantastic fashion. the fact that I have to mention specific occurrences makes your point obvious.

[/quote]

Yes…forgot about that fight. One of the best recent examples of putting together hand combos,footwork,leg/body kicks was from Frankie Edgar against Sherk. He wore him down…then took him down in the third,if I’m not mistaken. I have to re-watch that fight.

42

[quote]boatguy wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:

I don’t know how much better the money can get without more venues to fight in besides the UFC. EVeryone’s afraid of starting something rivaling the UFC because they saw what happened to EliteXC and all the others. But that’s the same thing that keeps the sport from expanding economically which in turn keeps the pay down.

I dunno if more money would help, though. There’s a lot of NCAA wrestlers with no professional league to go into when they’re done, and the Olympic team doesn’t pay any bills. Basically, a lot of them will try MMA as a default. There’s a lot of amateur muay thai, but no real money in it. Rob McCullough and Kit Cope both moved over to MMA from muay thai for the money. AS used to fight muay thai in Brazil. My point is, there are plenty of “feeder leagues” for UFC already. Perhaps the mgmt there lacks an eye for talent.

I’ve thought for years the sport, and the UFC specifically, would benefit more if they set up a tiered league system. You start out at a smaller, local show, you do good and get the next promoter interested, you move up a level, etc etc. Eventually you are fighting in WEC, Strikeforce, or some other high level event, with the UFC being the top game. Then you would see the necessary progression prior to a fighters arrival in the UFC, he would show up with a minimum of 10+ fights under his belt.

If UFC would cooperate with other promotions(to some extent, I understand it’s still a business), it would expand the opportunities and interest in the sport, as well as benefitting Zuffa’s bottom line. I’m not talking co-promoting, but allowing fighters to cross over for big fights. I let Fighter A come to your show to fight Fighter B, and next time around you send Fighter C to me to fight Fighter D. With a little cooperation and compromise, you could have 2-3 tops orgs, creating a multiple-belt environment similar to boxing, allowing for unification bouts every so often.

I’m just spitballing, but the point is, IMO, UFC could still remain top dog in spite of cooperating and even helping the other orgs. When Zuffa bought Pride, I would have liked to have seen them keep it alive as an overseas showcase. There was already a built in fanbase, and they could have brought the two shows more in line with each other, using the cross overs I mentioned before.[/quote]

I agree. This was sort-of Pat Militech’s point about the IFL when the UFC gave him flak about being involved in it. He said that it could pretty much only help the sport and the UFC.

Seeing guys show up with less than 10 fights is wasting everyone’s time.

I don’t think more time is going to solve the UFC’s talent problem at this point.

43

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
maverickbu wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
I don’t understand why guys don’t set up their leg kicks with either a jab and/or feint with the hands. Thiago Alves(especially in Koscheck fight) is the first that comes to mind of who actually does this. Actually,Shogun did a few times when he landed leg kicks on Machida…and when he didn’t use his hand feints…he still used the proper footwork and angles.

Another one is Tyson griffin used this in his fight with hermes franca, in fantastic fashion. the fact that I have to mention specific occurrences makes your point obvious.

Actually, sherk put edgar down, but edgar immediately got his hips free and stood up, if i remember. Frankie Edgar has been one of my favorites since he joined the UFC and its exciting to see his striking grow by leaps and bounds as of late. He surprised everyone beating sherk like that after the Maynard fight.

Yes…forgot about that fight. One of the best recent examples of putting together hand combos,footwork,leg/body kicks was from Frankie Edgar against Sherk. He wore him down…then took him down in the third,if I’m not mistaken. I have to re-watch that fight. [/quote]

44

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

Seeing guys show up with less than 10 fights is wasting everyone’s time.

I don’t think more time is going to solve the UFC’s talent problem at this point.
[/quote]

Let’s not generalize too much, though. Lesnar, hammill, Edgar, Velasquez, and a bunch of others have had very positive impact on the UFC with records showing less than 10 fights when they showed up. Hell, Joe Warren took out Chase bebee and Kid Yamamoto (a former top p4p) in the Dream FW tournament in the first 2 fights of his MMA career. his win over Kid was unquestionably upset of the year.

45

Kenny was definietely not lighter then Penn come fight night, it may have looked like that becuase Kenny is taller. I think GSP’s biggest problem is his rematches with Koscheck, Fitch and there are up and comers like Johnson that could put on a good fight. It sucks the only fighter I think could give him fits on the ground is in Strikeforce. As for Anderson he’s going to retire soon and Vitor is a legit challenge. Light Heavy is super competetive as we saw Saturday and Heavyweight is still growing.

46

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:

If Anthony Johnson is still undefeated and gets a shot at GSP’s belt in a year or so, that will be a big fight. It will be even bigger if Johnson beats him and they get a rematch.[/quote]

He’s gotta make weight first. After Friday/Saturday’s debacle he should be moved down the pecking order if anything. He looked suitably embarrassed after the fight at least.

47

[quote]maverickbu wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:

Seeing guys show up with less than 10 fights is wasting everyone’s time.

I don’t think more time is going to solve the UFC’s talent problem at this point.

Let’s not generalize too much, though. Lesnar, hammill, Edgar, Velasquez, and a bunch of others have had very positive impact on the UFC with records showing less than 10 fights when they showed up. [/quote]

These guys haven’t helped the talent gap, though. None of them are Anderson Silva/GSP/Penn caliber.

That’s the thing: the UFC apparently doesn’t know how fast and how well its talent will develop and to what degree, so it needs a “weeder” tier or needs to partner up with smaller local venues that can weed out the unathletic/untalented/slow-to-develop.

For example, Dana has been going on for quite some time about Machida’s skillz. Yes, Machida is now the champ, but we weren’t exactly wowed by him on Saturday night, were we? He’s no AS.

48

[quote]DannyVandal wrote:
jtrinsey wrote:

If Anthony Johnson is still undefeated and gets a shot at GSP’s belt in a year or so, that will be a big fight. It will be even bigger if Johnson beats him and they get a rematch.

He’s gotta make weight first. After Friday/Saturday’s debacle he should be moved down the pecking order if anything. He looked suitably embarrassed after the fight at least.

[/quote]

225 to 170? Yikes. He needs to move up or start jogging off some of that muscle.

49

side note on leg kicks.

we all saw what happened to Rua, even though he wrecked Machida’s legs.

Maybe CroCop should axe kick some of these judges because I don’t think they realize the damage a kick does.

50

[quote]Therizza wrote:
side note on leg kicks.

we all saw what happened to Rua, even though he wrecked Machida’s legs.

Maybe CroCop should axe kick some of these judges because I don’t think they realize the damage a kick does.[/quote]

Well Cecil Peoples says leg kicks ain’t shit,bitches!!

51

[quote]Therizza wrote:
side note on leg kicks.

we all saw what happened to Rua, even though he wrecked Machida’s legs.

Maybe CroCop should axe kick some of these judges because I don’t think they realize the damage a kick does.[/quote]

Agreed, but they’re used half-assedly in the UFC.

When you watch the Thais, if they get a good leg kick in on someone, they memorize the spot they hit. They’ll come back to it repeatedly later until eventually the guy isn’t walking anymore. This can happen very quickly if done right.

REmember the Lawler/Spratt fight? Lawler couldn’t answer the bell in the 2nd or third round because he got kicked so hard on the inside of his leg.

52

Fedor ftw.

53

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Therizza wrote:
side note on leg kicks.

we all saw what happened to Rua, even though he wrecked Machida’s legs.

Maybe CroCop should axe kick some of these judges because I don’t think they realize the damage a kick does.

Agreed, but they’re used half-assedly in the UFC.

When you watch the Thais, if they get a good leg kick in on someone, they memorize the spot they hit. They’ll come back to it repeatedly later until eventually the guy isn’t walking anymore. This can happen very quickly if done right.
[/quote]

They will do that to the arms,too. A person not really knowledgeable would ask, “why in the hell does he keep kicking his guarded ribs/head when he’s blocking?” After 4-5 times they understand why…lol.

54

Yea, just watch the Cung Le vs Frank Shamrock fight. =P

55

The Dos Anjos v Emerson fight at UFC103 was a good example of effective use of leg kicks, particularly inside leg kicks - Emerson looked like he could barely stand by the end of the fight!

56

If the right Vitor Belfort shows up (as many of you know there are two Vitor’s) he will give Anderson Silva all he can handle.

57

[quote]maverickbu wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:

Seeing guys show up with less than 10 fights is wasting everyone’s time.

I don’t think more time is going to solve the UFC’s talent problem at this point.

Let’s not generalize too much, though. Lesnar, hammill, Edgar, Velasquez, and a bunch of others have had very positive impact on the UFC with records showing less than 10 fights when they showed up. Hell, Joe Warren took out Chase bebee and Kid Yamamoto (a former top p4p) in the Dream FW tournament in the first 2 fights of his MMA career. his win over Kid was unquestionably upset of the year. [/quote]

I guess the point is that they shouldn’t have been able to.

58

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Therizza wrote:
side note on leg kicks.

we all saw what happened to Rua, even though he wrecked Machida’s legs.

Maybe CroCop should axe kick some of these judges because I don’t think they realize the damage a kick does.

Agreed, but they’re used half-assedly in the UFC.

When you watch the Thais, if they get a good leg kick in on someone, they memorize the spot they hit. They’ll come back to it repeatedly later until eventually the guy isn’t walking anymore. This can happen very quickly if done right.

REmember the Lawler/Spratt fight? Lawler couldn’t answer the bell in the 2nd or third round because he got kicked so hard on the inside of his leg. [/quote]

It’s not just that they memorize the spot, it’s that they know exactly the right spot to hit. They aren’t just throwing the leg kick and hoping that it lands like many in MMA do, they are specifically targetting nerve bundles, which dramatically increases the effectiveness of the kicks.

Speaking of leg kicks, I haven’t seen many (if any) target the calves/ankles when fighting someone who likes to catch kicks. There is a spot on the outside of the calf, which hurts just as much as getting kicked in the side of the thigh, and makes it pretty impossible for someone to catch your kick (unless maybe they squat way down and completely drop their hands, which makes them a sitting duck for a head kick, or fake low kick/straight right).

Same thing goes for the inside of the ankle. Hurts like a son of a bitch to get kicked there and is very difficult to defend against since the kick has to travel so little distance to land.

59

[quote]DannyVandal wrote:
jtrinsey wrote:

If Anthony Johnson is still undefeated and gets a shot at GSP’s belt in a year or so, that will be a big fight. It will be even bigger if Johnson beats him and they get a rematch.

He’s gotta make weight first. After Friday/Saturday’s debacle he should be moved down the pecking order if anything. He looked suitably embarrassed after the fight at least.

[/quote]

Good point, but it certainly seems he has the potential. I’m hoping this was a wakeup call that will get his head in gear.

60

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
maverickbu wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:

Seeing guys show up with less than 10 fights is wasting everyone’s time.

I don’t think more time is going to solve the UFC’s talent problem at this point.

Let’s not generalize too much, though. Lesnar, hammill, Edgar, Velasquez, and a bunch of others have had very positive impact on the UFC with records showing less than 10 fights when they showed up. Hell, Joe Warren took out Chase bebee and Kid Yamamoto (a former top p4p) in the Dream FW tournament in the first 2 fights of his MMA career. his win over Kid was unquestionably upset of the year.

I guess the point is that they shouldn’t have been able to.
[/quote]

While the sport is young I think its absolutely necessary to grab potential up and coming talent. The other orgs should exist in their current capacity, as feeder orgs for more prestigious orgs. The idea of sharing the wealth and the fighters among a few top orgs seems silly to me. MLB, NFL, NHL, NBA, etc… are all succesful sports orgs with all top talent because at some point in their maturation they merged the existing smaller orgs into the final controlling one.