Is it Greg Jackson or Trevor Wittman?

Training
1

This last weekend at UFC 122 (i think it was 122) Dana called Marquardt a choker and essentially blamed Jacksons camp for always telling their fighters they are winning the fight regardless of how it’s going. I had kind of felt this, but only about the fighters coming out of the Colorado sattelite camp that in reality is led by Trevor Wittmans stupid grinning ass.

I cant bring to mind more examples than the recent Condit vs. Kampmann fight, but I have definetely heard Jackson get after his fighters if he felt like they needed it. In the Condit fight he got after him because for the second fight in a row he started kind of slow and lackluster.

I have never heard Wittman say anything other than your winning and hit him more.
thoughts?

2

I haven’t watched enough corner footage from them, but from those I remember (GSP, Rashad, Condit, Carwin, Cowboy… the big names) Jackson is the superior chief cornerman. I also don’t remember anyone telling Florini or Condit they were winning a fight when they were clearly losing.

I think DFW’s comments were off-point. Marquardt always struggles with wrestlers and was fighting conservatively to secure a title-shot (fail btw). That’s not choking, that’s losing in two bad matchups. The shot against the camp, IMO, came out of nowhere.

3

[quote]SILVERDAN7 wrote:
This last weekend at UFC 122 (i think it was 122) Dana called Marquardt a choker and essentially blamed Jacksons camp for always telling their fighters they are winning the fight regardless of how it’s going. I had kind of felt this, but only about the fighters coming out of the Colorado sattelite camp that in reality is led by Trevor Wittmans stupid grinning ass.

I cant bring to mind more examples than the recent Condit vs. Kampmann fight, but I have definetely heard Jackson get after his fighters if he felt like they needed it. In the Condit fight he got after him because for the second fight in a row he started kind of slow and lackluster.

I have never heard Wittman say anything other than your winning and hit him more.
thoughts?[/quote]
A. That was a very close fight. And his corner kept telling Nate to let his feet go.
B. When Carlos fought Kampmann he WAS NOT A MEMBER OF TEAM JACKSON’s, he also trains in Albuquerque not Denver. So again your point makes no sense.

4

i think that GSP fights much more conservatively than he used to, but his grappling and conditioning is so dominant, i don’t think he has the same sense of urgancy to take the fight were he’s comfortable. i think he’s good everywhere…

i do think some wrestler-turned MMA guys tend to hold people down and go for the decesion win, and Jackson has quite a few of those guys that train in his camp. but they train there to learn from the best…

some of Jackson’s guys like Cerrone, Condit, Diego Sanchez and Leonard Garcia are very exciting, IMO.

i’ve never been too much of a Marquardt fan…he’s done well against some good guys, but i think people overestimate his strength and grappling based of his physique. i remember watching him wrestle with GSP who tossed him around like he was the MW, nto the other way around.

i also think there are some intricate details about cornering, especially when you know how the fighter reacts. some guys need to be yelled at, some need minor tweaks, and some need their confidence built.

yet again, i think DFW is a dick, but time and time again, he’s proven that he’s a hell of a lot smarter than he lets on…

5

Oh and Florian isn’t trained by Jackson’s or Wittman he’s trained by Firas Zihabi.

6

also another thing i just thought of…

the UFC has shown time after time that it will keeps guys around that are exciting fighter that look to finish the fight…i have no idea why some of these guys are so damn afraid to lose one fight.

it seems to me that most of really great UFC fights are non-title fights, with a few exceptions. i generally enjoy the WEC a lot more, but that might be due to more BJJ guys fighting there…

7

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
i think that GSP fights much more conservatively than he used to, but his grappling and conditioning is so dominant, i don’t think he has the same sense of urgancy to take the fight were he’s comfortable. i think he’s good everywhere…

i do think some wrestler-turned MMA guys tend to hold people down and go for the decesion win, and Jackson has quite a few of those guys that train in his camp. but they train there to learn from the best…

some of Jackson’s guys like Cerrone, Condit, Diego Sanchez and Leonard Garcia are very exciting, IMO.

i’ve never been too much of a Marquardt fan…he’s done well against some good guys, but i think people overestimate his strength and grappling based of his physique. i remember watching him wrestle with GSP who tossed him around like he was the MW, nto the other way around.

i also think there are some intricate details about cornering, especially when you know how the fighter reacts. some guys need to be yelled at, some need minor tweaks, and some need their confidence built.

yet again, i think DFW is a dick, but time and time again, he’s proven that he’s a hell of a lot smarter than he lets on…[/quote]
Well Chael did say he couldn’t take Nate down when they trained together in the past and he did go 3/4 on TD’s where Okami only had 1 the entire fight. He’s simply a choker, he lost the striking fight against Yushin not the grappling one.

8

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
also another thing i just thought of…

the UFC has shown time after time that it will keeps guys around that are exciting fighter that look to finish the fight…i have no idea why some of these guys are so damn afraid to lose one fight.

it seems to me that most of really great UFC fights are non-title fights, with a few exceptions. i generally enjoy the WEC a lot more, but that might be due to more BJJ guys fighting there…[/quote]

They don’t fight enough IMHO.

1-3 fights a year? So yeah, they fight conservatively because every loss is a big deal. In my opinion, they should fight, recover, fight. GSP has a 20-2 record, 22 fights in 8 years, that’s under three fights a year. He’s lost two professional fights… which equals out to almost a year’s worth of loosing if you look at it like that.

I think unless they’re defending a title, they should be fighting every 8-16 weeks.

9

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
also another thing i just thought of…

the UFC has shown time after time that it will keeps guys around that are exciting fighter that look to finish the fight…i have no idea why some of these guys are so damn afraid to lose one fight.

it seems to me that most of really great UFC fights are non-title fights, with a few exceptions. i generally enjoy the WEC a lot more, but that might be due to more BJJ guys fighting there…[/quote]

They don’t fight enough IMHO.

1-3 fights a year? So yeah, they fight conservatively because every loss is a big deal. In my opinion, they should fight, recover, fight. GSP has a 20-2 record, 22 fights in 8 years, that’s under three fights a year. He’s lost two professional fights… which equals out to almost a year’s worth of loosing if you look at it like that.

I think unless they’re defending a title, they should be fighting every 8-16 weeks.[/quote]

Dude… they’re fighters not punching bags. A professional fighter fighting every 8 weeks?!? Regardless of if hes “recovered”… at least in my opinion thats retarded and pointless.

10

[quote]Amiright wrote:

Dude… they’re fighters not punching bags. A professional fighter fighting every 8 weeks?!? Regardless of if hes “recovered”… at least in my opinion thats retarded and pointless.
[/quote]

Guys at lower levels in other parts of the world fight all the time.

The professional Muay Thai guys fighting in Thailand will have professional careers with 300+ fights.

The idea that these guys can only fight a few times a year was silly. In the early days, I can see that they risked over-saturation and repeat fights with such a small pool. But that’s not the case anymore. These guys can easily do 6 fights a year.

11

Yeah 6 fights a year isn’t that much, and honestly it might produce some better fighters.

Also just putting this out there, but for an organization that is supposedly intent on only keeping the best and the most exciting fighters, they still have a lot of fighters who are way too intent on just grinding out victories in the safest manner possible.

12

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]Amiright wrote:

Dude… they’re fighters not punching bags. A professional fighter fighting every 8 weeks?!? Regardless of if hes “recovered”… at least in my opinion thats retarded and pointless.
[/quote]

Guys at lower levels in other parts of the world fight all the time.

The professional Muay Thai guys fighting in Thailand will have professional careers with 300+ fights.

The idea that these guys can only fight a few times a year was silly. In the early days, I can see that they risked over-saturation and repeat fights with such a small pool. But that’s not the case anymore. These guys can easily do 6 fights a year.[/quote]

x2

Not only do the Thai’s fight upward of 4-7 times per month. They also fight for what amounts to pennies in American dollar. They fight to put food on the table and support their family.

Dana White needs time to market his fighters, hype up the fights etc. Then ends up shitting on them whenever they lose. Unless they almost kill themselves in the process.

13

6 fights a year - is too much

Injury suspensions would put a stop to that.

people would move up in weight and not cut as much-
and they would burn out much faster

but yes fighters should be more active 4 to 5 fights a year.

14

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
Yeah 6 fights a year isn’t that much, and honestly it might produce some better fighters.

Also just putting this out there, but for an organization that is supposedly intent on only keeping the best and the most exciting fighters, they still have a lot of fighters who are way too intent on just grinding out victories in the safest manner possible.[/quote]

wins equals $$$
some people always bang like wanderlai always fights he looses but is very exciting.

winning is winning and its a payday

15

at the higher levels i think that most guys cannot fight that much…when it’s the #1 and #2 guy and they brawl for 5 rds, they’re gonna be on medical suspension for a while. it looks like about half the UFC guys are on 30 day medicals suspensions (at a minimum).

the Thais are a bad example…look at how many kids fight to avoid child prostitition. fuck that…

4-6 fights a year…yeah, i’m cool with that. any more, and you won’t see an improved fighter (Travis Fulton?!?), and you’re gonna see some guys getting some goofy ass trauma (like Chris Leben not remebering his last fight, and when we walked back to his dressing room, literally thought it was the fight he had two weeks prior).

just my opinion, though…

16

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]SILVERDAN7 wrote:
This last weekend at UFC 122 (i think it was 122) Dana called Marquardt a choker and essentially blamed Jacksons camp for always telling their fighters they are winning the fight regardless of how it’s going. I had kind of felt this, but only about the fighters coming out of the Colorado sattelite camp that in reality is led by Trevor Wittmans stupid grinning ass.

I cant bring to mind more examples than the recent Condit vs. Kampmann fight, but I have definetely heard Jackson get after his fighters if he felt like they needed it. In the Condit fight he got after him because for the second fight in a row he started kind of slow and lackluster.

I have never heard Wittman say anything other than your winning and hit him more.
thoughts?[/quote]
A. That was a very close fight. And his corner kept telling Nate to let his feet go.
B. When Carlos fought Kampmann he WAS NOT A MEMBER OF TEAM JACKSON’s, he also trains in Albuquerque not Denver. So again your point makes no sense.[/quote]

A. I dont know what fight you watched, I didnt rewatch it but to me, in a fight where neither fighter sustains any damage and does not get hurt, the obvious winner is the one who controlled the terms the match is fought on which is exactly what Okami did.

B. Your right, he started slow in the ellenberger fight (his first back in NM), just as he did with Kampmann, and was urged to pick it up. I also said I didnt ever think the issues Dana White was talking about pertained to the New Mexico Camp, only to the Colorado one.

C. I mixed up the order of a fight, so what, the point is I have always seen Greg Jackson giving great advice during the fight, not Wittman. I also dont know how you could have heard his corner keep telling him to let his feet go when Spike spent 90 percent of the rest periods on commercial. Rogan mentioned one time that his corner said something which he thought was encouragement to throw more kicks.

D. Do you have anything worthwhile to say or are you just interested in starting pisssing contests like a twelve year old

17

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
i think that GSP fights much more conservatively than he used to, but his grappling and conditioning is so dominant, i don’t think he has the same sense of urgancy to take the fight were he’s comfortable. i think he’s good everywhere…

i do think some wrestler-turned MMA guys tend to hold people down and go for the decesion win, and Jackson has quite a few of those guys that train in his camp. but they train there to learn from the best…

some of Jackson’s guys like Cerrone, Condit, Diego Sanchez and Leonard Garcia are very exciting, IMO.

i’ve never been too much of a Marquardt fan…he’s done well against some good guys, but i think people overestimate his strength and grappling based of his physique. i remember watching him wrestle with GSP who tossed him around like he was the MW, nto the other way around.

i also think there are some intricate details about cornering, especially when you know how the fighter reacts. some guys need to be yelled at, some need minor tweaks, and some need their confidence built.

yet again, i think DFW is a dick, but time and time again, he’s proven that he’s a hell of a lot smarter than he lets on…[/quote]

I agree. My major point was not that they put out boring fighters which they dont. It’s mostly that I have never seen good advice come out of Wittman. Obviously GSP has taken to a measured collective way of fighting, and the same goes for the wild guys. Trying to tame a Garcia or a Sanchez may not always be the best coaching. THEse guys have made it to where they are based off of their intensity. On the other hand, if you can channel that intensity into a more intelligent fighting style like Guida has done since switching camps, you may have a very dangerous combo.

Like I said, I disagree with whites comments in regards to Jacksons own New Mexico camp, but agree that the Colorado camp is very cocky without much reason to be. I think Carwin, Rashad, Schaub and Marquardt are all overrated and arrogant in their own way.

18

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
at the higher levels i think that most guys cannot fight that much…when it’s the #1 and #2 guy and they brawl for 5 rds, they’re gonna be on medical suspension for a while. it looks like about half the UFC guys are on 30 day medicals suspensions (at a minimum).

the Thais are a bad example…look at how many kids fight to avoid child prostitition. fuck that…

4-6 fights a year…yeah, i’m cool with that. any more, and you won’t see an improved fighter (Travis Fulton?!?), and you’re gonna see some guys getting some goofy ass trauma (like Chris Leben not remebering his last fight, and when we walked back to his dressing room, literally thought it was the fight he had two weeks prior).

just my opinion, though…[/quote]

Our laws have alot to do with it. And The org. have to just live with those rules. It wasnt to long ago that the UFC was fighting in tents on the bank of the Mississippi because it was to brutal for people. I’m no Muay thai expert either, but I have read arguments before that the way the rounds, lengths of fights as well as the genneral fighting culture is in Thailand, makes it much more practical for their fighters to fight on a more regular basis.

Dont really understand the logic of the child prostitution remark, it seems like kind of a stretch.

I think the major thing is the mentality, MT fighters often have a more traditional martial artist mentality, meaning they are not going into the ring to disembowel the other fighter like MMa fighters often are.

With all that said, alot of the suspensions handed out for injuries are BS, and the fighters also used to fight alot more before the UFC got a stranglehold. EG. How many fights do bellator contestants have in a 3-4 month period, more than some UFC fighters do in a year.

19

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
at the higher levels i think that most guys cannot fight that much…when it’s the #1 and #2 guy and they brawl for 5 rds, they’re gonna be on medical suspension for a while. it looks like about half the UFC guys are on 30 day medicals suspensions (at a minimum).

the Thais are a bad example…look at how many kids fight to avoid child prostitition. fuck that…

4-6 fights a year…yeah, i’m cool with that. any more, and you won’t see an improved fighter (Travis Fulton?!?), and you’re gonna see some guys getting some goofy ass trauma (like Chris Leben not remebering his last fight, and when we walked back to his dressing room, literally thought it was the fight he had two weeks prior).

just my opinion, though…[/quote]

I wasn’t suggesting the UFC adopt the Thai model, and have their fighters fighting multiple times a month. Just pointing out that top-level professional guys somehow manage to do it, and 1-3 fights a year by comparison is pretty pathetic.

So people fight closer to their walking-around weight. So?

The way the UFC is setup is too static IMO. Too few fights. And the rules dominate the technique when you can’t “take a chance” because each fight matters so much. I think we’d see the sport and individual fighters grow and adapt much more if they fought more frequently.

Think about what a joke Brock Lesnar was. With a 3-1 record he become the UFC heavyweight champ. What a joke. That represented a year and a half of professional MMA career.

20

The problem with wanting some of these guys (especially the champs) to fight more is that you need to find fights for them. Do you want GSP to just keep fighting Fitch and Alves every couple of months? Also, it is not totally under the UFC’s control who these guys fight. They have to agree to take the fight. And if the chance for a better fight is there down the road, they just pull the old “training injury” (a la Vitor Belfort) and say they can’t fight. Then they get the fight they want and magically they are healed.

Why would GSP want to fight more than twice a year? He doesn’t need the money. If I’m GSP, I have no desire to fight Fitch again because I already dominated him. I’ll do TUF and whoop up on Koscheck. Other than that, I’m waiting until somebody proves themselves to be a legit challenger before I take another fight, unless the UFC is in danger of vacating my belt.

(1) LOL how is a guy a joke for beating one of the greatest fighters in the history of the sport?
(2) The more fights you have per year, the more “joke” fighters are going to get title shots… If GSP fights 6 times a year, you are either going to have him fighting the same guys more than once in a year (retarded), or you are going to be giving guys like Mike Pyle a title shots- also retarded.