Over the UFC

Training
21

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
He definitely needs to up his fight IQ and keep the bloodlust in check.

Can that even be taught? Some of these guys get in there and do whatever they want despite what their corner tells them. [/quote]

forrest griffin comes to mind, much more technical than he used to be. Rampage would be another, less unchecked aggression and more methodical boxing since joining the UFC ranks. I will admit, though, that these guys have since changed camps, so that can be a major factor, but at least shows that they are capable of improving the mental aspects of the game.

22

[quote]dhickey wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
If they were to do anything affecting the HW division,I think it would be better to have some kind of cruiser weight division…like 220lbs or something of the sort.

What about just expanding the 205 div to 215? A 25lb spread at that weight is not all that different to a 15lb spread at 155.

I really don’t think there are that many guys at HW that couldn’t either cut to 215 or put on some weight if they think they need to to compete.

I really don’t see the differense between a size/strenght dissadvantage and a BJJ/Wrestling/Striking dissadvantage. If you think you are lacking in one area, you need to focus on it. Guys act like size and strength (the kind that provides real advantage) is something you are born with and is some sort of unfair advantage that can’t be bridged. I say bullshit. If you need to be bigger and stronger to compete, then focus on it.

I don’t want to cut weight and I don’t want to focus on being bigger and stronger, make a weight class for me. I just don’t buy it. Sounds about as logical as saying you don’t want to focus on wrestling and want a division with no wrestlers.

If anything, height and reach should have more of a determining factor in weight class selection by a fighter. Those are things you cannot improve on. If you are 5’10" with short arms, you should probably stay away from the higher weight classes even if you can come in at a competitive weight.[/quote]

Well…that could work. It would definitely encourage those 220-230lb fighters to cut weight…guys like Barry,Velasquez,etc. Although,after seeing Cain manhandle 6’5" 265(maybe 270-280 fight weight)…he would be fine. That is,until he lost.

The gaining weight thing is not as simple. The way these guys train,it’s next to impossible to gain any amount of mass that doesn’t work against them…and without some kind of “horsemeat” in their diet…lol.

I mean that’s different than say Rich Franklin who is naturally at a higher weight and cuts weight. If a guy is 230-240 and wants to be 265,he’s going to have a hell of a time…AND he’s will have to take a good amount of time off with no fights to make that possible.

Just think about the amount of calories these guys need just to stay at their weight and supply their workouts. I don’t know…just doesn’t seem like a great idea that would yield the intended result without some serious time off from fighting. No way a guy can keep up with the demands of MMA training and still focus on getting bigger/stronger. Unless they are a genetic freak…or supplement with some “horsemeat” and “spinach.”

If someone can pull it off,they really have to assess what they lose by doing so…whether it be conditioning,speed,footwork,etc…according to their body-type,frame,etc.

A good example would be Carwin. People question why he cuts down past 265lbs…he claims that doing so allows for him to have the best possible pep in his step(conditioning,footwork,handspeed,etc). Sure he could just stay at 280 and cut for weigh-ins…but what real advantage will he really have that is more important than the mentioned “pep in his step.” And can it happen in a 3 month span?

23

I’m not sure if we should be holding him up as an example of “good fighter IQ,” however. Esp. after the Silva fight. “Here’s a great idea - I’ll try to stand up with AS despite my sucky boxing skillz and lazy, lazy jab/cross combo!”

24

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Just think about the amount of calories these guys need just to stay at their weight and supply their workouts. I don’t know…just doesn’t seem like a great idea that would yield the intended result without some serious time off from fighting. No way a guy can keep up with the demands of MMA training and still focus on getting bigger/stronger. Unless they are a genetic freak…or supplement with some “horsemeat” and “spinach.”
[/quote]

I will vouch for this. When I was training I was doing 5-7 hours a week (not counting strength training) weighing in at a whopping 175 and eating 4500 calories a day just to keep from losing weight. I had to eat less-than-healthy foods frequently because 4500 calories of clean eating, which i tried, may as well have been an anchor on conditioning or sparring days.

Now imagine what a guy training 25+ hours a week and already weighing 230 is going to have to shovel down to grow. It’s going to be staggering and in some cases preventitive to effect training.

25

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
forrest griffin comes to mind, much more technical than he used to be.

I’m not sure if we should be holding him up as an example of “good fighter IQ,” however. Esp. after the Silva fight. “Here’s a great idea - I’ll try to stand up with AS despite my sucky boxing skillz and lazy, lazy jab/cross combo!” [/quote]

That was a terrible fight for Forrest anyway you slice it. You need to get something going on the feet before you can try to take it to the ground unless you are a superb wrestler/judoka, which forrest is not. Are you gonna shoot for a distant double/single against a guy with an 8 point attack like AS? but then again, as you stated, your other choice is to try and trade for a bit with a guy superior at technical striking.

I think everyone was shocked at how little time it took AS to exploit that advantage against someone with a range advantage who likes to use leg kicks.

26

[quote]maverickbu wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Just think about the amount of calories these guys need just to stay at their weight and supply their workouts. I don’t know…just doesn’t seem like a great idea that would yield the intended result without some serious time off from fighting. No way a guy can keep up with the demands of MMA training and still focus on getting bigger/stronger. Unless they are a genetic freak…or supplement with some “horsemeat” and “spinach.”

I will vouch for this. When I was training I was doing 5-7 hours a week (not counting strength training) weighing in at a whopping 175 and eating 4500 calories a day just to keep from losing weight. I had to eat less-than-healthy foods frequently because 4500 calories of clean eating, which i tried, may as well have been an anchor on conditioning or sparring days.

Now imagine what a guy training 25+ hours a week and already weighing 230 is going to have to shovel down to grow. It’s going to be staggering and in some cases preventitive to effect training. [/quote]

Exactly…granted most of these guys have the luxury of just training…but they are doing it pretty much ALL day. Imagine the calories needed. Hell,if Michael Phelps needs 5000-6000 calories to keep his grasshopper physique,imagine what these fighters go through.

27

This is sort of my point about him reaching his peak.

I’ve seen several guys throw leg kicks at AS and get immediately knocked senseless.

My strategy, were I F_G, would be crisp (not lazy) jab/cross, shoot, and pray.

28

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Therizza wrote:
WEC is fun to watch, but take any of their champs and put them in the UFC and see who wins? Chael Sonnen much? It sucks, but the champs are the champs because they are the best at MMA at the moment. Well I should say ‘winning’ and not ‘mma’, as some champs kind of actually suck at fighting! (Machida cough cough). It’s like the Patriots back when they ran the NFL. Noone could touch them. It will just take time for more people to get into the UFC, talent wise.

But it is true and somewhat disappointing that the disparity between the #1 and #2 in some divisions is so huge.

Again, this is why I think there should be a heavyweight and superheavyweight division. Part of the reason Brock trainwrecks people is that some of them shouldn’t be in the same weight class as him.

As an aside, who do you think would go into the heavyweight and superheavyweight divisions?

Making a superheavyweight division would just reinforce the talent gaps…and think about the overall level of athleticism of super-heavyweights…and the fact that they’re not many fighters to fill a super HW division. People would just label it the “freakshow” division. [/quote]

I agree with the freakshow division. Ever see the Pride superheavyweights? One or two guys who didn’t belong in a sumo diaper or a Jenny Craig before picture. Having a BJJ black belt means nothing if you’re so ponderously fat that you can’t move to use it. With regards to the “athletic” guys winning, I think that’s because guys are realizing that’s part of the game now.

GSP was good before, but he’s much better now that his strength is way up. One of his trainers once remarked that when he (GSP) came to them he couldn’t do 10 pullups. Now he does them with a 100 lb. dumbbell hanging off him. That kind of strength development with GSP’s level of skill would be tough to beat for anyone.

29

[quote]maverickbu wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Just think about the amount of calories these guys need just to stay at their weight and supply their workouts. I don’t know…just doesn’t seem like a great idea that would yield the intended result without some serious time off from fighting. No way a guy can keep up with the demands of MMA training and still focus on getting bigger/stronger. Unless they are a genetic freak…or supplement with some “horsemeat” and “spinach.”

I will vouch for this. When I was training I was doing 5-7 hours a week (not counting strength training) weighing in at a whopping 175 and eating 4500 calories a day just to keep from losing weight. I had to eat less-than-healthy foods frequently because 4500 calories of clean eating, which i tried, may as well have been an anchor on conditioning or sparring days.

Now imagine what a guy training 25+ hours a week and already weighing 230 is going to have to shovel down to grow. It’s going to be staggering and in some cases preventitive to effect training. [/quote]

Yeah, you need to focus on it. It will be at the expense of something else, just like focusing on striking will sacrafice time spent on other things. The point is the guys that are big now had to make the same sacrifices. They did/do eat more and were/are more productive in the weight room to put the weight on and keep it on.

They are certainly ahead of the game already being big and strong, but this is not any different than someone being ahead of the competition by studying BJJ all their lives. They probably have to spend less time on it than someone trying to acheive the similar proficiency in a couple of years.

If you are facing a BJJ black belt, you can either attempt to close the gap in BJJ by focusing on it at the expense of other things, or you can try and combat it by focusing on striking, conditioning, strength, etc. I don’t view size any differently. You can chose to focus on closing the gap, or combat it with an appossing advantage in quickness, conditioning, or a particular skill.

Some are going to start out with better conditioning, better agility, better striking, better BJJ, better grappling, better fight psychology, and higher mental capacity to fight a smart fight. I just don’t see how starting out with better size and strength is any different. Especially at the higher weight classes where guys are more likely to have a frame that could carry extra weight if they wanted to.

This is all just a generalization. I am sure there are some that just wouldn’t be able to put on weight. Just like there are guys that will never be world class in striking or grappling. just like guys that will never have world class psychological tools or fighting intellegence.

30

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
You need to get something going on the feet before you can try to take it to the ground unless you are a superb wrestler/judoka, which forrest is not.

This is sort of my point about him reaching his peak.

I think everyone was shocked at how little time it took AS to exploit that advantage against someone with a range advantage who likes to use leg kicks.

I’ve seen several guys throw leg kicks at AS and get immediately knocked senseless.

My strategy, were I F_G, would be crisp (not lazy) jab/cross, shoot, and pray. [/quote]

Every MMA fighter without a true boxing background defaults to the 1-2 you are referring to, and AS knows this. That’s how he does his exagerrated bobbing and weaving so easily against these guys.

IMO, leg kicks are in fact that way to start chipping away at AS. You’ll notice in a lot of his fights he takes that stance where his lead leg is way in front of him and his upper body is almost completely upright. Leg kicks while properly defending the opposite side punch counter (i.e., right leg kick → block return right hand) that he is so good at will do well. Work the inside leg, then move to the outside of it and throw a safe, ranged jab with the same side to keep him from dipping down to grab the leg like he likes.

I know, all easier said than done, and it ain’t a blueprint for a win, but its about the on;y real “weakness” i’ve seen from him lately. Weaken the base, throw off timing, and open takedowns. and as you said, pray.

31

I’m not sure how having a dominating champion is a BAD thing. I think it is better for the sport to have a few guys who are on top; it adds stability. Right now it’s kind of accepted that:

Penn
GSP
Silva
Machida
Lesnar

Are the guys to beat. I’m sure before December 2010 we will see at least one of them get knocked off.

The most fascinating matchups are when you have one guy who has been dominating and somebody rises up to beat them. Then you create a rivalry and the potential for a rematch that EVERYBODY wants to see. However, in order to have that situation, you need a guy to be on top for 4 or 5 fights first.

If Anthony Johnson is still undefeated and gets a shot at GSP’s belt in a year or so, that will be a big fight. It will be even bigger if Johnson beats him and they get a rematch. If Rua had managed to finish Machida, I think that would have set up a great rematch as Machida, as the challenger, would have been forced to push the pace in the rematch.

If Lesnar rattles off 4 or 5 more wins and we get a capable challenger in a couple years to rise up, that will set up a great fight.

The problem with Silva is that he has kind of cleaned out the division, so none of the fights at middleweight would be super-interesting unless somebody moves down or he moves up.

32

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
maverickbu wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Just think about the amount of calories these guys need just to stay at their weight and supply their workouts. I don’t know…just doesn’t seem like a great idea that would yield the intended result without some serious time off from fighting. No way a guy can keep up with the demands of MMA training and still focus on getting bigger/stronger. Unless they are a genetic freak…or supplement with some “horsemeat” and “spinach.”

I will vouch for this. When I was training I was doing 5-7 hours a week (not counting strength training) weighing in at a whopping 175 and eating 4500 calories a day just to keep from losing weight. I had to eat less-than-healthy foods frequently because 4500 calories of clean eating, which i tried, may as well have been an anchor on conditioning or sparring days.

Now imagine what a guy training 25+ hours a week and already weighing 230 is going to have to shovel down to grow. It’s going to be staggering and in some cases preventitive to effect training.

Exactly…granted most of these guys have the luxury of just training…but they are doing it pretty much ALL day. Imagine the calories needed. Hell,if Michael Phelps needs 5000-6000 calories to keep his grasshopper physique,imagine what these fighters go through. [/quote]

My friend played D-I football and said he was eating 8-10k calories a day. He said him and his buddy would split a jar of peanut butter every day. We took him to the buffet at the Rio hotel in Vegas and that was a sight to behold. But he was a lot bigger when he was eating that much. I know he wasn’t using gear b/c he was at the Air Force Academy and they’ll kick you out for using that stuff.

Phelps eats 8,000/day and swims.

I realize such eating is tough, but there are a lot of guys that do it. Maybe they just need to start eating MREs. Those have 4000 calories in them.

33

[quote]maverickbu wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
You need to get something going on the feet before you can try to take it to the ground unless you are a superb wrestler/judoka, which forrest is not.

This is sort of my point about him reaching his peak.

I think everyone was shocked at how little time it took AS to exploit that advantage against someone with a range advantage who likes to use leg kicks.

I’ve seen several guys throw leg kicks at AS and get immediately knocked senseless.

My strategy, were I F_G, would be crisp (not lazy) jab/cross, shoot, and pray.

Every MMA fighter without a true boxing background defaults to the 1-2 you are referring to, and AS knows this. That’s how he does his exagerrated bobbing and weaving so easily against these guys.

IMO, leg kicks are in fact that way to start chipping away at AS. You’ll notice in a lot of his fights he takes that stance where his lead leg is way in front of him and his upper body is almost completely upright. Leg kicks while properly defending the opposite side punch counter (i.e., right leg kick → block return right hand) that he is so good at will do well. Work the inside leg, then move to the outside of it and throw a safe, ranged jab with the same side to keep him from dipping down to grab the leg like he likes.

I know, all easier said than done, and it ain’t a blueprint for a win, but its about the on;y real “weakness” i’ve seen from him lately. Weaken the base, throw off timing, and open takedowns. and as you said, pray. [/quote]

Irvin didn’t exactly protect himself on the right roundhouse that did him in, did he?
http://you.video.sina.com.cn/b/15124340-1310720795.html

You’re supposed to keep that opposite hand up. Oh well, I don’t think it would have mattered in his case. Still, though, you see guys ignoring the basics against AS. Franklin got plumbed within an inch of his life in Franklin vs. AS I. He didn’t learn how to escape the plumb the next time around.

34

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

Irvin didn’t exactly protect himself on the right roundhouse that did him in, did he?
http://you.video.sina.com.cn/b/15124340-1310720795.html
[/quote]

thats exactly what i was thinking when you mentioned leg kicks not working, but it was done, as you noted, with poor technical execution leaving himself open.

35

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
maverickbu wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
You need to get something going on the feet before you can try to take it to the ground unless you are a superb wrestler/judoka, which forrest is not.

This is sort of my point about him reaching his peak.

I think everyone was shocked at how little time it took AS to exploit that advantage against someone with a range advantage who likes to use leg kicks.

I’ve seen several guys throw leg kicks at AS and get immediately knocked senseless.

My strategy, were I F_G, would be crisp (not lazy) jab/cross, shoot, and pray.

Every MMA fighter without a true boxing background defaults to the 1-2 you are referring to, and AS knows this. That’s how he does his exagerrated bobbing and weaving so easily against these guys.

IMO, leg kicks are in fact that way to start chipping away at AS. You’ll notice in a lot of his fights he takes that stance where his lead leg is way in front of him and his upper body is almost completely upright. Leg kicks while properly defending the opposite side punch counter (i.e., right leg kick → block return right hand) that he is so good at will do well. Work the inside leg, then move to the outside of it and throw a safe, ranged jab with the same side to keep him from dipping down to grab the leg like he likes.

I know, all easier said than done, and it ain’t a blueprint for a win, but its about the on;y real “weakness” i’ve seen from him lately. Weaken the base, throw off timing, and open takedowns. and as you said, pray.

Irvin didn’t exactly protect himself on the right roundhouse that did him in, did he?
http://you.video.sina.com.cn/b/15124340-1310720795.html

You’re supposed to keep that opposite hand up. Oh well, I don’t think it would have mattered in his case. Still, though, you see guys ignoring the basics against AS. Franklin got plumbed within an inch of his life in Franklin vs. AS I. He didn’t learn how to escape the plumb the next time around. [/quote]

I don’t understand why guys don’t set up their leg kicks with either a jab and/or feint with the hands. Thiago Alves(especially in Koscheck fight) is the first that comes to mind of who actually does this. Actually,Shogun did a few times when he landed leg kicks on Machida…and when he didn’t use his hand feints…he still used the proper footwork and angles.

36

I don’t either.

There’s a lot of muay thai that you never see in MMA though. Everyone talks about how great AS’s plum is, but I think it probably pales in comparison to what you see from the Thais.

37

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
I don’t understand why guys don’t set up their leg kicks with either a jab and/or feint with the hands. Thiago Alves(especially in Koscheck fight) is the first that comes to mind of who actually does this. Actually,Shogun did a few times when he landed leg kicks on Machida…and when he didn’t use his hand feints…he still used the proper footwork and angles. [/quote]

Another one is Tyson griffin used this in his fight with hermes franca, in fantastic fashion. the fact that I have to mention specific occurrences makes your point obvious.

38

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
I don’t understand why guys don’t set up their leg kicks with either a jab and/or feint with the hands.

I don’t either.

There’s a lot of muay thai that you never see in MMA though. Everyone talks about how great AS’s plum is, but I think it probably pales in comparison to what you see from the Thais.

The Advanced Muay Thai Clinch by Malaipet - YouTube [/quote]

Traditional thai kickboxing stance is asking to be taken down, so unfortunately, pure thai boxing will never look as good in MMA.

39

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

I don’t know how much better the money can get without more venues to fight in besides the UFC. EVeryone’s afraid of starting something rivaling the UFC because they saw what happened to EliteXC and all the others. But that’s the same thing that keeps the sport from expanding economically which in turn keeps the pay down.

I dunno if more money would help, though. There’s a lot of NCAA wrestlers with no professional league to go into when they’re done, and the Olympic team doesn’t pay any bills. Basically, a lot of them will try MMA as a default. There’s a lot of amateur muay thai, but no real money in it. Rob McCullough and Kit Cope both moved over to MMA from muay thai for the money. AS used to fight muay thai in Brazil. My point is, there are plenty of “feeder leagues” for UFC already. Perhaps the mgmt there lacks an eye for talent. [/quote]

I’ve thought for years the sport, and the UFC specifically, would benefit more if they set up a tiered league system. You start out at a smaller, local show, you do good and get the next promoter interested, you move up a level, etc etc. Eventually you are fighting in WEC, Strikeforce, or some other high level event, with the UFC being the top game. Then you would see the necessary progression prior to a fighters arrival in the UFC, he would show up with a minimum of 10+ fights under his belt.

If UFC would cooperate with other promotions(to some extent, I understand it’s still a business), it would expand the opportunities and interest in the sport, as well as benefitting Zuffa’s bottom line. I’m not talking co-promoting, but allowing fighters to cross over for big fights. I let Fighter A come to your show to fight Fighter B, and next time around you send Fighter C to me to fight Fighter D. With a little cooperation and compromise, you could have 2-3 tops orgs, creating a multiple-belt environment similar to boxing, allowing for unification bouts every so often.

I’m just spitballing, but the point is, IMO, UFC could still remain top dog in spite of cooperating and even helping the other orgs. When Zuffa bought Pride, I would have liked to have seen them keep it alive as an overseas showcase. There was already a built in fanbase, and they could have brought the two shows more in line with each other, using the cross overs I mentioned before.

40

The UFC is just beginning yo. The talent will come. I say they need 2 additional weight classes at least. There’s a need for a featherweight (~135#) and cruiserweight (~230#) class