Frank Mir on Brock Lesner

Training
1

Just a quote for the T-Nation crowd.

�??You think some kickboxer is going to beat him?�?? he asked. �??No kickboxer is going to be able to stop his double (-leg takedown). There was a time when nobody in the country in wrestling could stop it.�??

Mir said the match taught him two lessons. The first is to incorporate heavy lifting into his training, because of how Lesnar overpowered him, noting that even though he won, the idea that technique will always overcome a huge edge in power is bunk. The second was it taught him Nogueira�??s best trait: mental toughness under adversity.

Just nice to see Mir bring up the technique vs str argument and address it against his favor.

2

Well, a kickboxer wouldn’t have to worry about his double leg takedown if he kicks him in his giant head first. Everyone said there would be no way CroCop could stop Coleman’s takedowns either, and the Hammer got stuffed on every attempt in their fight.

His comment on heavy lifting is kind of surprising, what exactly does he do now? Frank isn’t exactly a small guy.

3

Damn, google doesn’t know. I tried searching for Mir’s strenght routine, but came up with nuttin.

I guess I like to be validated when I’m doing something right (heavy lifting), and this adds more certainty in an uncertain world of training.

5

Is there a link for the article. I wouldn’t mind reading it.

6

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Mir is a good man for admitting what was pretty obvious to those who saw the fight. He was getting destroyed prior to his superior technique winning out.

What’s wrong with having some power of your own plus incredible technique?[/quote]

Mir is good but what he did with Brock isn’t exactly a hallmark of superior technique. With 3 months training my 3X State wrestling champ 8 year old son could have defended that. Lesnar literally fell into it.

7

Lesnar was over enthusiastic and got caught.

Mir was working for the Knee bar while Lesnar decided to throw another punch… and it was game over

He still nearly powered out of it though.

[i]Well, a kickboxer wouldn’t have to worry about his double leg takedown if he kicks him in his giant head first. Everyone said there would be no way CroCop could stop Coleman’s takedowns either, and the Hammer got stuffed on every attempt in their fight.

[/i]

The first takedown is possibly the most explosive one I have ever seen. I hope Lesner develops his game a little more for next time we seem him

10

I think its a muscle thing. They build up so much strength for their wrestling that the extra muscle actually hurts their punching and slows them down

They still generate power of course but tend to look slow and awkard and just arent as effective in the striking game.

Classic cases in point Matt Hughes and Tito Ortiz

Big Strong wrestlers whose standups look sucky compared to others in the division

11

I would say experience was the differencemaker in their match.

As for the punching.

A good punch can come off from as little as one inch and knock out the opponent, the idea is to not punch with your arms but with your whole damn body.

Lesnar I believe has great potential, he can really put someone in great pressure but he really needs to be more technical and I know many of you will flame me for this but more balanced too.

12

[quote]mt006 wrote:
In a way he sort of reminded me of Dan Severn the great Michigan State Wrestler who lost to Royce Gracie many years ago. Some Wrestlers it seems have a more difficult time than others adapting to the punching game.

I think its a muscle thing. They build up so much strength for their wrestling that the extra muscle actually hurts their punching and slows them down

They still generate power of course but tend to look slow and awkard and just arent as effective in the striking game.

Classic cases in point Matt Hughes and Tito Ortiz

Big Strong wrestlers whose standups look sucky compared to others in the division
[/quote]

Maybe it is more that they think they can get away with shitty form because they are so strong, or they can still hit hard with shitty technique so they dont really try to work on it and put effort into having high level striking technique. Iron Mike Tyson was, or still is I guess, pretty stout (5’10" 220, and lean) and it didnt seem to negatively affect his striking ability.

13

[quote]Scrotus wrote:
mt006 wrote:
In a way he sort of reminded me of Dan Severn the great Michigan State Wrestler who lost to Royce Gracie many years ago. Some Wrestlers it seems have a more difficult time than others adapting to the punching game.

I think its a muscle thing. They build up so much strength for their wrestling that the extra muscle actually hurts their punching and slows them down

They still generate power of course but tend to look slow and awkard and just arent as effective in the striking game.

Classic cases in point Matt Hughes and Tito Ortiz

Big Strong wrestlers whose standups look sucky compared to others in the division

Maybe it is more that they think they can get away with shitty form because they are so strong, or they can still hit hard with shitty technique so they dont really try to work on it and put effort into having high level striking technique. Iron Mike Tyson was, or still is I guess, pretty stout (5’10" 220, and lean) and it didnt seem to negatively affect his striking ability.
[/quote]

What? What? Did you just let this fucking guy get away with the old, “Muscle slows you down” jive bullshit?

No fuckers, these guys couldn’t hit because no one taught them how to hit. They’ve spent 20 years wrestling instead of 20 years striking- what the fuck you think they’re going to be good at?

How long would it take Tyson to outwrestle Matt Hughes? Would you blame his muscle then?

I’ll be damned if this forum will fall into the old horshit dogma of “muscle makes you slow”. This is still T-Nation - don’t slide into grossly ridiculous ideas such as that.

15

[quote]analog_kid wrote:
Well, a kickboxer wouldn’t have to worry about his double leg takedown if he kicks him in his giant head first. Everyone said there would be no way CroCop could stop Coleman’s takedowns either, and the Hammer got stuffed on every attempt in their fight.

His comment on heavy lifting is kind of surprising, what exactly does he do now? Frank isn’t exactly a small guy.[/quote]

Coleman had a severe neck injury and was old as dirt and had no training. Prime Coleman power doubles Mirko like a rag doll.

16

[b]What? What? Did you just let this fucking guy get away with the old, “Muscle slows you down” jive bullshit?

No fuckers, these guys couldn’t hit because no one taught them how to hit. They’ve spent 20 years wrestling instead of 20 years striking- what the fuck you think they’re going to be good at?

I’ll be damned if this forum will fall into the old horshit dogma of “muscle makes you slow”. This is still T-Nation - don’t slide into grossly ridiculous ideas such as that.
[/b]

This fucking guy might actually have been making a point about specific training regimes not sitting happily alongside others.

What? Do you think that Matt Hughes and Tito never train standup? That in 15 odd years they never bother sparring?

Of course they do…

How many good professional boxers do you see with big grappling muscles designed to hold and control an opponent of equal size in a grounded position? NOT VERY FUCKING MANY

Why? Because simply they have a different training regime and goals that suits their overall target that lends itself to different muscular development.

How long would it take Tyson to outwrestle Matt Hughes? Would you blame his muscle then?

Good Example - I would blame Tysons 60lb weight advantage

I’ll be damned if this forum will fall into the old horshit dogma of “muscle makes you slow”.

Can a 6ft guy weighing 17stone of pure muscle (pretty jacked at that) run a marathon in under 3hrs…

Nope because his training is not consistent with his overall goals…

Things are that fucking simple at times

17

[quote]mt006 wrote:
How many good professional boxers do you see with big grappling muscles designed to hold and control an opponent of equal size in a grounded position? NOT VERY FUCKING MANY
[/quote]

Grappling muscles, eh? I missed have missed those in my anatomy textbook.

18

No, this fucking guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

I’m sure they spar, but they do not practive in striking like they’ve practiced in grappling, hence why their striking game is “sloppy” compared to guys that came up that way. Get it straight.

Wrestlers grow up wrestling, probably from age 10 or so. They learn the ins and outs, and compete all over for years. Boxers do the same. Often they don’t combine until they try to go into MMA.

There is no way in hell that a wrestler can learn the same amount that it’s taken a boxer 15 years to learn. Same is true vice versa.

Hence why we often have “strikers” and “grapplers” in the UFC. THey’ll learn enough to get by in the matches, but they prefer one over the other.

To be a master in two styles of fighting is very, very rare, (except on the internet.)

GRAPPLING MUSCLES?

Tell me wise one, are those different than striking muscles? Are you born with grappling muscles? Can I buy them? Is it genetic? Can you tell “grappling muscles” apart from “striking muscles” or from “bodybuilding muscles?”

So you’re saying I can’t buy grappling muscles? Oh, curse these striking muscles I’ve got… or bodybuilding muscles… or wait, if I send you a picture of me, can you tell me which kind I have?

If I can do a thousand pushups, does that give me grappling muscles or boxing muscles?

Wrong example dumbass. Matt Hughes would fucking murder him because Matt Hughes knows what he’s doing and Tyson doesn’t. (Tyson must have striking muscles. Or boxing muscles. I’m not quite sure.)

In a stand up game, Hughes is dead.

First of all, get off that fucking limey speak “Stone” garbage. Give it in pounds or not at all.

Second of all, you are comparing apples with oranges. A fighter needs massive anaerobic capacity, explosive strength, and good maximal strength. A marathon runner needs none of these.

However, a wrestler, a boxer, and a JJ guy all need roughly (note ROUGHLY) the same type of workouts because they are timed combat sports.

So fucking simple that you fucked it all up, huh?

Go back to middle school junior. Go develop your brain instead of those grappling muscles.

19

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Scrotus wrote:
mt006 wrote:
In a way he sort of reminded me of Dan Severn the great Michigan State Wrestler who lost to Royce Gracie many years ago. Some Wrestlers it seems have a more difficult time than others adapting to the punching game.

I think its a muscle thing. They build up so much strength for their wrestling that the extra muscle actually hurts their punching and slows them down

They still generate power of course but tend to look slow and awkard and just arent as effective in the striking game.

Classic cases in point Matt Hughes and Tito Ortiz

Big Strong wrestlers whose standups look sucky compared to others in the division

WOW.

whew, go get them irish, lol
Maybe it is more that they think they can get away with shitty form because they are so strong, or they can still hit hard with shitty technique so they dont really try to work on it and put effort into having high level striking technique. Iron Mike Tyson was, or still is I guess, pretty stout (5’10" 220, and lean) and it didnt seem to negatively affect his striking ability.

What? What? Did you just let this fucking guy get away with the old, “Muscle slows you down” jive bullshit?

No fuckers, these guys couldn’t hit because no one taught them how to hit. They’ve spent 20 years wrestling instead of 20 years striking- what the fuck you think they’re going to be good at?

How long would it take Tyson to outwrestle Matt Hughes? Would you blame his muscle then?

I’ll be damned if this forum will fall into the old horshit dogma of “muscle makes you slow”. This is still T-Nation - don’t slide into grossly ridiculous ideas such as that.[/quote]

WOW.

whew, go get them irish, lol

20

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

This fucking guy might actually have been making a point about specific training regimes not sitting happily alongside others.

What? Do you think that Matt Hughes and Tito never train standup? That in 15 odd years they never bother sparring?

Of course they do…

No, this fucking guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

I’m sure they spar, but they do not practive in striking like they’ve practiced in grappling, hence why their striking game is “sloppy” compared to guys that came up that way. Get it straight.

Wrestlers grow up wrestling, probably from age 10 or so. They learn the ins and outs, and compete all over for years. Boxers do the same. Often they don’t combine until they try to go into MMA.

There is no way in hell that a wrestler can learn the same amount that it’s taken a boxer 15 years to learn. Same is true vice versa.

Hence why we often have “strikers” and “grapplers” in the UFC. THey’ll learn enough to get by in the matches, but they prefer one over the other.

To be a master in two styles of fighting is very, very rare, (except on the internet.)

How many good professional boxers do you see with big grappling muscles designed to hold and control an opponent of equal size in a grounded position? NOT VERY FUCKING MANY

GRAPPLING MUSCLES?

Tell me wise one, are those different than striking muscles? Are you born with grappling muscles? Can I buy them? Is it genetic? Can you tell “grappling muscles” apart from “striking muscles” or from “bodybuilding muscles?”

Why? Because simply they have a different training regime and goals that suits their overall target that lends itself to different muscular development.

So you’re saying I can’t buy grappling muscles? Oh, curse these striking muscles I’ve got… or bodybuilding muscles… or wait, if I send you a picture of me, can you tell me which kind I have?

If I can do a thousand pushups, does that give me grappling muscles or boxing muscles?

How long would it take Tyson to outwrestle Matt Hughes? Would you blame his muscle then?

Good Example - I would blame Tysons 60lb weight advantage

Wrong example dumbass. Matt Hughes would fucking murder him because Matt Hughes knows what he’s doing and Tyson doesn’t. (Tyson must have striking muscles. Or boxing muscles. I’m not quite sure.)

In a stand up game, Hughes is dead.

I’ll be damned if this forum will fall into the old horshit dogma of “muscle makes you slow”.

Can a 6ft guy weighing 17stone of pure muscle (pretty jacked at that) run a marathon in under 3hrs…

Nope because his training is not consistent with his overall goals…

Things are that fucking simple at times

First of all, get off that fucking limey speak “Stone” garbage. Give it in pounds or not at all.

Second of all, you are comparing apples with oranges. A fighter needs massive anaerobic capacity, explosive strength, and good maximal strength. A marathon runner needs none of these.

However, a wrestler, a boxer, and a JJ guy all need roughly (note ROUGHLY) the same type of workouts because they are timed combat sports.

So fucking simple that you fucked it all up, huh?

Go back to middle school junior. Go develop your brain instead of those grappling muscles.[/quote]

again, WOW, remind me not to get you mad at me irish…:wink: