OTS Big Beyond Belief Program

[DH1]

I advocate leaving a rep in the hole, at least till your last set. A recent study shows that failure training (F) and not to failure training (NF) produced similar gains and the NF group experienced better recovery.

Remember, the frequency of this program, along with the OTS recommendation to keep reps “fast” but controlled will ensure all MU’s are stimulated AND fatigued regardless of reaching gut-busting concentric failure on each set. This could make or break your success on the program…

DH

[quote]GodOfSteele wrote:
SmallToBig wrote:
GodOfSteele wrote:
DH count me in on the 4x a week schedule. I am in the second week, tomorrow will be Day 3 and goddamn I am sore all the time! I dont feel that drained really which makes me question if I am doing it right since it is the objective to overreach a little. Well we�??�??�?�´ll see.

No i was mostly ok on Week 1 and 2, though as i noted above Week 3 is already draining me, my entire body is sore lol and i still had to train those bodyparts AGAIN today !

Just bust your balls on the 1st set, then try make it through the rest of them

Taking every set to the point where I can�?�´t complete another rep. I.e. muscular failure. As I said we�?�´ll see.
[/quote]

[onoshap]

I’ve been studying this thread for about two weeks and have decided to join the party also.

Stats:
5’8"
weight 165
age 30
years lifting ~ 8
bf % ~ 10

I dropped approximately 20 pounds of lean body mass when I was doing MMA to fight as a lightweight and am now looking to get it back quickly (recently took a job bouncing) I have been doing TBT and Crossfit style exercises for the last 3 years or so because it was what my trainer preferred for us.

Now I’m itching for size. I’ll be primarily doing pressing exercises with dumbells due to a number of old injuries that simply make them more comfortable than barbell exercises. None of the injuries affect my performance it’s simply a manner of comfort.

My split will be 6 days/week, 1x/day

Day 1
DB Row
DB Incline
Reverse Curls
Seated Calf Raise

Day 2
DB Military
CGBP
Leg Press/Good Morning
Weighted Crunches

Day 3
DB Flat Bench
Pull Ups (super strict)
Bar Curls
Calf Raise on Leg press

Day 4
Upright Rows
EZ Bar Skull Crusher on ground
Squat/GHD
ABS

Day 5
DB Row
DB Incline
Seated Calf Raise
Hammer Curls

Day 6
DB Military
Dips
Deadlift/leg extension
Hanging Pike

I have deadlifts on day 6 because I personally don’t like doing high rep deadlifts because I find form gets compromised when doing them to failure at that range. I chose Good Mornings over RDLs because I personally am able to emphasize my hams and suffer less lower back fatigue (which seems important with this program) better with them.

Any criticism or advice is welcome and I am very excited about beginning this program.

[DH1]

You know, you can also, if need be, use Deads on only one or two sets at the end of day 6. Deads, for many including myself, are very taxing. They make squats look lame if you ask me as far as systemic fatigue. But man, they deliver the goods on size and whole body strength.

An idea might be to use leg curls for the first set(s) and then finish out with a quality set or two of deads.

Another idea might be to keep them for the supergrowth phase only.

Time, experience, and individuality will tell…

Welcome aboard.

DH

[DH1]

Some quick suggestions for this type of training:

BCAA (for every reason imaginable!)
Beta-alanine (the buffering quality will likely be very beneficial)
Multi-nutrient (something of good quality. I like GNC Mens formula)
Glutamine (yeah, I know it’s not popluar, but to keep you from feeling like you’re burning alive from lactic acid buldup and to boost the bodys immune system its a “targeted” supplement that I personally like very much)
PowerDrive (CNS recovery/support is going to be very critical)

I consider my protein and fish oil to be “food” so those are a given. Oh, and nothing beats lots of quality food. So dont be a twit and buy the above and then eat 1500 cals per day.

Just wanted to shoot this out for general use.

DH

[DH1]

I’m gifted from my mothers side with wordiness. Hunt down some of my past posts in the AD thread and on some Waterbury or EDT articles. If you like my style, you’ll be as happy as a fat kid when the ice cream truck comes. I warned ya tho, sometimes I cant shut up. ha…

DH

[quote]rasturai wrote:
holy fuck DH! Damn I shoulda paid attention in english class…seriosuly man you made that TONS more clear for me and I can definately see the more importance of it now. I also was thinking from a different perspective. This is the 2nd time in my training I’ve done bodybuilding type of split…I completely forgot that a lot of pro BBer’s and non-pro BBer’s train once a week on bodyparts.

I had always trained lowerbody 2-3xa week and upper body 2-3x a week with the same exercises. But I just did it for a lower amount of reps (5’s) and only 3 sets usually. But of course I plateaued from this eventually and still kept doin the same damn thing thinking it’s something probably with nutrition, not eating enough.

But really I had just been doin the same damn thing too long!
Switch over to this program and I’m eating exactly the same but the gains are very relevant.

Thanks a lot for your input on the article DH, opened up my eyes a lot more and I can definately see how it sparks quite a bit of interest now. Good stuff.[/quote]

[MiJuggernaut]

Guys, been following the thread, my third day of the program! 15 rep front squats are brutal! quetion: Are ther any good delt builders to use in this program that aren’t a form of overhead press. I am planning to use strict standing military press on day 2 and push press on the last delt/tri/thigh/ab day. was thinking of using a non press in the middle, any suggesstions? hang cleans (too explosive/ not enough TUT?). Thanks.

[Cephalic_Carnage]

[quote]MiJuggernaut wrote:
Guys, been following the thread, my third day of the program! 15 rep front squats are brutal! quetion: Are ther any good delt builders to use in this program that aren’t a form of overhead press. I am planning to use strict standing military press on day 2 and push press on the last delt/tri/thigh/ab day. was thinking of using a non press in the middle, any suggesstions? hang cleans (too explosive/ not enough TUT?). Thanks.[/quote]

Seated lateral machine… (seriously, if you have a good one)

Possibly also: Upright rows, but not done the regular way.
Don’t pull all the way up, bend over some with somewhat bent knees… Sort of like a fairly upright barbell row, elbows out, I stop the ascend a little above the belly button or so. Nice trap builder and hits rear and lateral delts pretty good as well (need a slightly wider grip here, just experiment).
Good thing is that those don’t bother (my) shoulders like regular upright rows do and you can use a lot more weight…
Not sure what to call them… Shrug-rows?

Other than that… I don’t really like regular free-weight laterals (skip laterals, shelby laterals, regular ones, scott laterals…) on high-frequency routines… They always end up irritating my forearms (extensors I’m guessing) and that translates into elbow discomfort (dull ache) that may radiate all the way up to the shoulders.

I’d also go with seated high incline overhead presses (one notch below vertical, usually, from chin to either lockout or shy of lockout…) free-weight or smith machine (non-counter-weighted) over push-presses.
A real fav. of the pro’s, great delt exercise, allows for fast progression and your numbers won’t suffer if your back is fatigued from the previous day.
You can use some leg drive here, narrow foot placement, sort of push yourself up on the bench.
Branch warren goes down to his upper chest, rests the bar there and uses leg drive to catapult it up… Kind of a seated push-press. Works if you have an upper chest the size of his, but imo it’s harder on the shoulders…

Cleans… Not unless you like the idea of doing up to 5 sets of 10-12 reps worth of cleans…

[Bonechiro]

Just wanted to thank everyone for their input on this program and advice. I just started it today, and it’s a nice change so far. I’ve actually tired timing my rest periods, and 2 mins goes by quick, I’m surprised. It’s all about gathering up your intensity during that time for me.

Made a journal in case anyone is interested. I’d appreciate any input.

Have a great holiday weekend US dudes.

Forums - T Nation

[SmallToBig]

Might put in the High Incline Overhead Press, instead of the seated Military Press as i already do the standing one… would make better sense.

[rasturai]

Uh oh DH…you can’t shut up…and I have a knack for being on the computer for too long. This is gonna be trouble my friend haha.
I’ve taken all the recommendations in…I have been leaving a rep in the hole on most sets…sometimes I can’t help it but the 13th rep is slower and is pretty much failure. But I’m sure a couple runs and experience on the program and I’ll definaetly know what to adjust, fix etc. But yeah leaving a rep in the hole I think will produce greater gains and less CNS fatigue.

I think the BCAA’s definately help I’ve been taking in 20-30g during my workout. So if the workout takes me an hour and i want 30g’s I just take 1 scoop (5g) I throw it in my mouth and then drink water…I don’t let it break down…I just put the mini-scoop of powder in my mouth and wash it down with water. I go through about 1 litre of water per workout.

I’ve been takin BCAA’s for bout a month, definaetly think it works…like I said before I was amazed at how I wasn’t sore the next day after a training session that I thought was gonna leave me buried the next day (it was the 15rep squats day).
And still my soreness is very minimal!
I havent been takin any beta-alanine but I’ll look into that perhaps…and im gonna get some glutamine for sure…everythin else is in order protein, fish oil, multi from GNC. Don’t have any Powerdrive…not sure if I’ll be taking that one $$$$$ lol.

Have you been takin any/all of this stuff STB?

[GrindOverMatter]

so are you guys huge beyond all reckoning yet?

[That_One_Guy]

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:
so are you guys huge beyond all reckoning yet?[/quote]

Yeah, I woke up this morning and over the night I apparently gained 200 pounds.

[Burst]

[quote]DH wrote:
I advocate leaving a rep in the hole, at least till your last set. A recent study shows that failure training (F) and not to failure training (NF) produced similar gains and the NF group experienced better recovery.

Remember, the frequency of this program, along with the OTS recommendation to keep reps “fast” but controlled will ensure all MU’s are stimulated AND fatigued regardless of reaching gut-busting concentric failure on each set. This could make or break your success on the program…

DH

GodOfSteele wrote:
SmallToBig wrote:
GodOfSteele wrote:
DH count me in on the 4x a week schedule. I am in the second week, tomorrow will be Day 3 and goddamn I am sore all the time! I dont feel that drained really which makes me question if I am doing it right since it is the objective to overreach a little. Well we�??�??�??�?�´ll see.

No i was mostly ok on Week 1 and 2, though as i noted above Week 3 is already draining me, my entire body is sore lol and i still had to train those bodyparts AGAIN today !

Just bust your balls on the 1st set, then try make it through the rest of them

Taking every set to the point where I can�??�?�´t complete another rep. I.e. muscular failure. As I said we�??�?�´ll see.

[/quote]

Interesting, thanks for sharing that. I’ll try to pay attention to this for Week 2.

[Burst]

[quote]MiJuggernaut wrote:
Guys, been following the thread, my third day of the program! 15 rep front squats are brutal! quetion: Are ther any good delt builders to use in this program that aren’t a form of overhead press. I am planning to use strict standing military press on day 2 and push press on the last delt/tri/thigh/ab day. was thinking of using a non press in the middle, any suggesstions? hang cleans (too explosive/ not enough TUT?). Thanks.[/quote]

Like C_C suggested, I dig the upright rows. My lateral delts are absolutely killing me today, I did them yesterday. Feels good.

[rasturai]

GrindOVERMATTER. Yeah man I am getting huge beyond reckoning…I will be posting pics in 2 weeks. Stay tuned.

[GrindOverMatter]

[quote]rasturai wrote:
GrindOVERMATTER. Yeah man I am getting huge beyond reckoning…I will be posting pics in 2 weeks. Stay tuned.[/quote]

Nice, im looking foreward to it, im not doing BBB (sometime in the near future perhaps?) but i will also post pics when i make it to 200lbs…currently 190 coming back from being sick and losing some weight

[rasturai]

OH DH…I think Imight have to take you on that Power Drive…fuck man tonight was tough…I barely finished the workout lol.
Like I mean I did modified compound sets with CGBP and Squats…5 sets 13-15 reps 90sec. rest. Man I was pushin it hard on squats…BUT I was so much weaker on the squats…no way I coulda did the weight I did last week for 15 reps on squats…so I reduced it by 40lbs. Did the squats, presses, squats, preses, squats…then after that I almost threw up. Literally I was heaving for a couple min.
It took me five minutes to recover and not throw up. At this point my mind was just fucked up cause I’m feelin overreached…and i was like fuck I can’t give up I gotta finish this shit no matter how shitty I feel.
So being a big boy I pull my pants up and think I got this. I up the weight by 15lbs from the previous set I almost threw up on for squats…cranked out 285x15. Bad idea hahah. Feelin like death agani, I rest 100sec. and get my ass on the bench do the set. Again want to throw up. Had to erst a couple min, before I could finish the rest of the workout.
Very tough stuff…I mean I just gotta get used to it I guess but wow…not even physically feelin bad…I am getting more tired faster in the muscles…but MENTALLY…MENTALLY I feel a “cloud” when training and just gotta push through it. Anyways 2 more days left in week 3 ramp. It’s little only 2 days but it’s gonna feel like hell!
GOnna be an interesting day on deadlifts, oh boy lol.
Definately think I’m gonna pick up Power Drive and perhaps only using it on week 2 and 3 of the ramp. I’m definaetly seeing the importance of CNS recovery and everything.
I’m sure during supergrowth I won’t need it, but might use it 2nd and 3rd week of supergrowth to get the most out of it. Don’t use it for ramp 1st week, then use again for ramp week 2-3. Etc etc.
Anyways had to vent about that lol
Really tested my limits in this workout. And I got through it even though I coulda quit and called it in. I’m sure most people would have. I couldn’t breathe man I was getting so tired…my whole body just BURNING efels on fire and won’t go away and at the same time wanting to throw up.
DOn’t know if it was smarter to call it in, but fuck I feel great now mentally knowing that I pushed myself through that. Until next time…

[Burst]

Wow, tremendous job rasturai! You’re really making me look forward to Week 3… haha.

But on the flip side, we have an excellent example of what to do. Thanks for being the leader here.

[GodOfSteele]

[quote]DH wrote:
I advocate leaving a rep in the hole, at least till your last set. A recent study shows that failure training (F) and not to failure training (NF) produced similar gains and the NF group experienced better recovery.

Remember, the frequency of this program, along with the OTS recommendation to keep reps “fast” but controlled will ensure all MU’s are stimulated AND fatigued regardless of reaching gut-busting concentric failure on each set. This could make or break your success on the program…

DH

GodOfSteele wrote:
SmallToBig wrote:
GodOfSteele wrote:
DH count me in on the 4x a week schedule. I am in the second week, tomorrow will be Day 3 and goddamn I am sore all the time! I dont feel that drained really which makes me question if I am doing it right since it is the objective to overreach a little. Well we�??�??�??�?�´ll see.

No i was mostly ok on Week 1 and 2, though as i noted above Week 3 is already draining me, my entire body is sore lol and i still had to train those bodyparts AGAIN today !

Just bust your balls on the 1st set, then try make it through the rest of them

Taking every set to the point where I can�??�?�´t complete another rep. I.e. muscular failure. As I said we�??�?�´ll see.

[/quote]

Okay get your point…might induce excessive fatigue without any benefits…funny thing is I don´t really feel that drained. Have to wait and see what Week 3 has to offer!

[MiJuggernaut]

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
MiJuggernaut wrote:
Guys, been following the thread, my third day of the program! 15 rep front squats are brutal! quetion: Are ther any good delt builders to use in this program that aren’t a form of overhead press. I am planning to use strict standing military press on day 2 and push press on the last delt/tri/thigh/ab day. was thinking of using a non press in the middle, any suggesstions? hang cleans (too explosive/ not enough TUT?). Thanks.

Seated lateral machine… (seriously, if you have a good one)

Possibly also: Upright rows, but not done the regular way.
Don’t pull all the way up, bend over some with somewhat bent knees… Sort of like a fairly upright barbell row, elbows out, I stop the ascend a little above the belly button or so. Nice trap builder and hits rear and lateral delts pretty good as well (need a slightly wider grip here, just experiment).
Good thing is that those don’t bother (my) shoulders like regular upright rows do and you can use a lot more weight…
Not sure what to call them… Shrug-rows?

Other than that… I don’t really like regular free-weight laterals (skip laterals, shelby laterals, regular ones, scott laterals…) on high-frequency routines… They always end up irritating my forearms (extensors I’m guessing) and that translates into elbow discomfort (dull ache) that may radiate all the way up to the shoulders.

I’d also go with seated high incline overhead presses (one notch below vertical, usually, from chin to either lockout or shy of lockout…) free-weight or smith machine (non-counter-weighted) over push-presses.
A real fav. of the pro’s, great delt exercise, allows for fast progression and your numbers won’t suffer if your back is fatigued from the previous day.
You can use some leg drive here, narrow foot placement, sort of push yourself up on the bench.
Branch warren goes down to his upper chest, rests the bar there and uses leg drive to catapult it up… Kind of a seated push-press. Works if you have an upper chest the size of his, but imo it’s harder on the shoulders…

Cleans… Not unless you like the idea of doing up to 5 sets of 10-12 reps worth of cleans…

[/quote]

Thanks for the input. These “heavy” upright rows sound great and unlike overhead presses are not primarily a front delt move. I think I will also take your advice on the high incline press, since I consider myself a bodybuilder and not a power athlete. I was simply trying to observe the recommendation of using moves that use the most CNS activation. I am already feeling that the low back could be an issue so I think a seated exercise makes sense. Sound advice. thanks.