Ortiz Vs. Shamrock *SPOILER*

Off Topic
81

[quote]ZEB wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
Zeb, who i normally find insightful, wrote…

"If Shamrock had any problems with the blows from Titos elbow he would not have popped up so fast after the ref stepped in prematurely. There might even be a case that Tito’s elbows were more glancing blows and that’s why Shamrock did not bother to defend them. If you understand fighting you know that sometimes you take a few shots to deliver one big one…or in the case of mma a submission hold etc. "

"and that’s why Shamrock did not bother to defend them? What was that?? The “let the other guy tire out delivering elbows to my head defense”!!! C’mon…glancing or not (and they were not all glancing), he was not even ATTEMPTING to block them. For all your claimed experience, you should know Dean had no choice but to stop it. It’s not even worthy of an intelligent debate.

And by the way, for all the “faculties” you claim Shamrock had, HE KNOWS not defending those blows will result in a stoppage. I suggest you take a real good look at his eyes as he “protests” the stoppage. He was NOT all there. You must be kidding. I agree with some of your post…but he above was just …wrong.

I have to disagree with you here my friend.

Shamrock did not look “rocked” in any way shape or form! He was Wide eyed and jumped up complaining immediately. Not at all like someone who has to shake his head, realizes what happened and still wants to fight.

How many fights have you seen where the other fighter takes a few shots? Whether it is intended or not? This was certainly not an exceptional situation. And only a couple of lebows looked to be landing solidly.

Try to look at it another way…

If they were in a standing position and Shamrock took five unanswered shots (some good some not so good) and he did NOT look dazed at all, would the fight have been stopped?

I don’t think so.

I’m not claiming that Shamrock was going to win that fight. But then again he should have at least been given the opportunity.

Perhaps the UFC rank and file thought that it was a mismatch and they were simply performing their end of a “self fulfilling prohpecy”?

But, I do respect your thoughts on the matter and I can see how you (and others) may think this. We have to agree to disagree this time.

Zeb[/quote]

Bad analogy and standing v. prone. He was prone and not defending himself. Regardless if we disagree on glancing v. solid blows, dazed v. “wide eyed”, the intent of the rules is clear: to safeguard against serious injury - not to suffer a serious injury so you can be satisifed he “lost” for your money. (1) he was prone (2) he was taking elbows (3) he was not even attempting to block the elbows with his hands are by position (4) he took several elbows in a row uncontested.

Given the foregoing, there was no choice but to stop the bout…if you’re arguing over one or two more elbows to be satisifed - you are ignoring the intent of the rules and that is to ensure the safety of the fighters. Ken was not going to get up, improve his position, or win. That’s it in a nutshell…the rest is Monday morning quarterbacking and fan disatisfaction from not getting their quart of blood.

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[quote]Donut62 wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
Sometimes I really marvel at the (un)intelligent quotient on this site. Are you all 16 year old pubescent tough guys? Judging by the comments, with some exceptions, some of you definitely are - no matter what your age.

The comments about Shamrock are assinine. Period. No one here even ventured the thought that Shamrock was going to come away from that position - you’re only pissed b/c the fight wasn’t long enough to entertain you. I was pissed too - but not at the stoppage. I was pissed at the UFC for thinking another Ortiz / Shamrock match would be good - especially given the beating Shamrock took the first time.

The only value of this match up was the hatred between them - it was the ONLY palpable selling point. Did any of you really think Shamrock could beat Tito after the last showing? So basically you’re pissed you were only entertained a short time. So what…he got to his feet fast after the stoppage. Did you see the look in his eyes? He was on “queer street”. Lights on - nobody home. Getting on your fucking feet is a survival response. Be mad at the UFC for making the match. Be disappointed in Shamrock for not being able to put on a better showing. Don’t be mad at Herb Dean. He did his damn job. His job isn’t to make sure you got value for your dollar - that was UFC’s obligation when match making!

Shamrock / Ortiz 3? R U FUCKING KIDDING ME? Some of you are idiots. Jesus christ if I saw you getting your ass whooped in the street and take 5 unanswered elbows to the head I’d help your sorry ass out before you die or end up riding the “short bus” to school. What would make you happy for your dollar…the next blow putting him to sleep or worse? Fucker wasn’t defending himself…period and end of story. It was an obvious mismatch - be mad at that!

On to other, less controversial matters…

I was a Mir fan - loads of potential. But for the life of me, I cannot understand how these so called “professional fighters”, like Mir, show up out of shape. Even at 240 or so, he was a bit soft and gassed all the time. At 260, he was a pig. The sad part of it is, the kid has skills. And the jelly roll he was fighting was similiarly out of shape. How do two fighters that can’t come into the octogon in decent shape make the grade for a PPV event. See my earlier points - blame the fucking UFC making the match! Mir should be relegated to the free fights on Spike until he is in shape. Then I will pay to watch him snap Silvia’s arm again.

Silvia / Arlovski? LMFAO (and some of you challenged me when I posted in other threads about the relative lack of talent in the UFC). First, if I want to see a fucking boxing match - I’ll tune in to see actual boxers that can box. Not two guys that couldn’t win Golden Gloves. Someone said they almost fell asleep - I did fall asleep, my girlfriend too. Silvia the heavyweight champ says it all. Arlovski was exposed. I wouldn’t cross the street to see them fight again. I will only tune in to see someone credible take the belt from Silvia. If I hear the Arlovski/pitbull reference again (I own/breed pitbulls), I think I’ll fucking puke. More like all bark Arlovski.

By the way, whoever made the 8 count suggestion was on point. Don’t know if it could work though. In a contest like MMA, where you work to get in position to finish an opponent - to have to reliquish that position so the opponent can be checked is an unfair advantage to the downed opponent. Unlike boxing, where such a count is an effective means to control injury and guard against too soon stoppages, MMA is a game of “checkmate”, not “check”. If I had worked my ass off for minutes to gain a mount, and you get a standing 8 count for my trouble, that is not fair. Might make for a longer fight - and entertain you better - but it seems unfair. Just my two cents.

I pretty much agree. The fact that anyone would even consider Shamrock-Ortiz 3 kind of makes me sick. The fact that the second fight even happened is disheartening, it seems that theatrics are more valued than good fights these days. I still haven’t watched Tito-Shammy 3, but the comments remind me of Sakuraba-Shamrock where Ken appeared (to me, at least) to be unconcious and not defending himself, and the ref stopped the fight. Ken jumped right up and protested vehemntly, of course. He seems to have a fast recovery which makes stoppages appear premature when they were, in fact, not. Ken would have been in a world of shit if the ref hadn’t stopped Saku, IMHO.

It’s been done to death on here, but I am very unimpressed with the lack of basic boxing skills, esp. AA-Sylvia. For someone who came into MMA fandom from a striking sports (K-1 and boxing) background, it was endlessly frustrating watching AA-Syliva “throw down.”[/quote]

Amen brother; I’ve been saying the same thing on all the damn UFC threads…the overall skill level is just not that fucking high. Look, if a fight needs to stay in standup mode b/c the two fighters want it there - I have no problem with that. But watching Silvia and Arlovsky try to box with the occassional kick was just fucking painful. I’ve seen better sparring in the amateurs. Now some UFC dickrider will come here and say, “but those guys don’t have to worry about takedowns” LMFAO - neither did Silvia or Arlovsky that night! They were both (attempting) trading and it was painful and boring to watch.

If either one of them were capable of delivering any kind of blow off a slipped punch the night would have ended real soon. They looked like two teenagers not sure how to dance with each other at the prom. It wasn’t the fight itself that was pathetic, it was their skill level at what they chose to do - stand and box.

83

[quote]msousa20 wrote:
EmperialChina wrote:
I was rooting for Tito but I have to say Herb Dean must’ve been nervous because he called that way too damn soon. He should realize Shamrock can take more hits, but he called that way too damn soon. I bought the payperview and I have to say I am heavily disappointed in the refereeing. I like Herb Dean but I think it was called way too damn soon, they sould have given Shamrock way more time…ridiculous!

Man, I agree with you 100%. That fight was pure bullshit. As a die hard UFC fan, I was quite disappointed with Herb Dean’s decision to call off the fight so damn early. I personally think Tito Ortiz is cocky, arrogant, self absorbed, and an all around asshole. Flipping someone off with both fingers is just fuckin disrespectful and I have no respect whatsoever for Tito. I loved seeing him lose that one time…it was classic. I think if Tito were any kind of man, he would of said “If Dana White will agree, I will rematch Shamrock right here, right now.” If Ortiz had done that, he would gain my respect. What do you guys think?
[/quote]

Do you think this is the WWE? These are sanctioned fights. With contracts and official weigh-ins. That’s what makes this an organized sport and not sports entertainment. Which loss of Tito’s are you reffering to? He’s lost four. Liddel being the most dominant loss in opinion.

84

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
ZEB wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
Zeb, who i normally find insightful, wrote…

"If Shamrock had any problems with the blows from Titos elbow he would not have popped up so fast after the ref stepped in prematurely. There might even be a case that Tito’s elbows were more glancing blows and that’s why Shamrock did not bother to defend them. If you understand fighting you know that sometimes you take a few shots to deliver one big one…or in the case of mma a submission hold etc. "

"and that’s why Shamrock did not bother to defend them? What was that?? The “let the other guy tire out delivering elbows to my head defense”!!! C’mon…glancing or not (and they were not all glancing), he was not even ATTEMPTING to block them. For all your claimed experience, you should know Dean had no choice but to stop it. It’s not even worthy of an intelligent debate.

And by the way, for all the “faculties” you claim Shamrock had, HE KNOWS not defending those blows will result in a stoppage. I suggest you take a real good look at his eyes as he “protests” the stoppage. He was NOT all there. You must be kidding. I agree with some of your post…but he above was just …wrong.

I have to disagree with you here my friend.

Shamrock did not look “rocked” in any way shape or form! He was Wide eyed and jumped up complaining immediately. Not at all like someone who has to shake his head, realizes what happened and still wants to fight.

How many fights have you seen where the other fighter takes a few shots? Whether it is intended or not? This was certainly not an exceptional situation. And only a couple of lebows looked to be landing solidly.

Try to look at it another way…

If they were in a standing position and Shamrock took five unanswered shots (some good some not so good) and he did NOT look dazed at all, would the fight have been stopped?

I don’t think so.

I’m not claiming that Shamrock was going to win that fight. But then again he should have at least been given the opportunity.

Perhaps the UFC rank and file thought that it was a mismatch and they were simply performing their end of a “self fulfilling prohpecy”?

But, I do respect your thoughts on the matter and I can see how you (and others) may think this. We have to agree to disagree this time.

Zeb

Bad analogy and standing v. prone. He was prone and not defending himself. Regardless if we disagree on glancing v. solid blows, dazed v. “wide eyed”, the intent of the rules is clear: to safeguard against serious injury - not to suffer a serious injury so you can be satisifed he “lost” for your money. (1) he was prone (2) he was taking elbows (3) he was not even attempting to block the elbows with his hands are by position (4) he took several elbows in a row uncontested.

Given the foregoing, there was no choice but to stop the bout…if you’re arguing over one or two more elbows to be satisifed - you are ignoring the intent of the rules and that is to ensure the safety of the fighters. Ken was not going to get up, improve his position, or win. That’s it in a nutshell…the rest is Monday morning quarterbacking and fan disatisfaction from not getting their quart of blood.[/quote]

Well spoken and quoted BodyGuard.

85

I don’t think that UFC can get away with trying to put another Ortiz-Shamrock fight on PPV. There really isn’t a market for it, especially since Ortiz won the first two fights.

I do, however, think it would be smart business if they did decide to have the two fight again to make it the main event of one of their Ultimate Fight Night specials on Spike TV. The rating would definitely be an all-time record for UFC, which would then allow Spike and UFC to charge more for advertisers on their shows, which in turn, makes more money for both companies.

86

My final thoughts are:

  1. Maybe if they want a Russian component for Silvia they could bring in Klitchko (actually, Ukrainian) to box a little. At least one of the fighters would know how to box.

2)The thought that Shamrock looked dazed (TheBodyGuard’s comment)… isn’t that his normal look? No disprect to Shamrock but…

3)If there is a Ortiz/Shamrock 3, I will save $40, 'cause I ain’t watching.

4)As much as I like watching TUF, at least the later shows in each, when you think about it, they should be doing several at once to build up the talent pool for the UFC. What I am saying is that too bad you have to do a reality TV show to get talent, and if you are going that route, it is obvious you need talent. That said, do more to get more talent. I am being facetious, don’t worry. Perhaps time to swallow some pride (no pun intended) and to some other organizations for quality fighters

5)TUF produces some good athletes/fighters please don’t take the above the wrong way.

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Shamrock has no one to blame but himself for that stoppage, if you are laying on your back with your hands next to your head while eating elbows, you cannot cry about the ref stopping it.

88

[quote]MaloVerde wrote:
ZEB wrote:

I’ve been in a few scrapes in my time. Some not so bad. Others pretty nasty. Of course that was a while ago when I used to do the bar scene.

You equate drunken bar brawls to MMA experience? Right.[/quote]

Are you an amnesia victim?

You said this: [quote]You have obviously never been in a fight or gotten hit that many times.[/quote]

You did not mention mma experience did you?

And, I never mentioned that I was ever involved in any “drunken bar brawls.”

So on the one hand you cannot remember what you said. And on the other hand you are assuming what I stated instead of actually reading it.

That makes you 0 for 2 so far.

[quote]I don’t think it’s the amount of unanswered punches that matter. It’s more of where and how they land. And of course who is taking them and who is giving them.

You just made my point.[/quote]

No, actually I made my point. Did you forget who you are?

I brought that up to point out that someone can be cut and LOOK very badly hurt but it’s not so. And in Shamrocks case someone can be catching a few elbows…or forearms as the case might be and also not be hurt.

[quote]Boxers where very large gloves compared to mma fighters. Yet, many become brain injured and sometimes with no apparent cuts or scrapes. It’s the repeated blows to the head over a period of time, jarring the brain that cause long lasting damage. Not that one fight cannot do it…it can but usually not.

Again you make my point. Five unanswered blows. You are encouraging the refs to allow 19 unanswered blows.[/quote]

You’re and odd duck. But then again this is the Internet and well…

My point is that it depends. Sometimes someone can take 10 unanswered blows and be okay. Othertimes it only takes ONE and the fight should be stopped.

To make it even more simpler for you: It has to do with the damage done to the fighter who has received the blows.

D o Y o u U n d e r s t a n d ?

[quote]If Shamrock had any problems with the blows from Titos elbow he would not have popped up so fast after the ref stepped in prematurely. There might even be a case that Tito’s elbows were more glancing blows and that’s why Shamrock did not bother to defend them. If you understand fighting you know that sometimes you take a few shots to deliver one big one…or in the case of mma a submission hold etc.

Did you watch the same fight. Even the live view you could tell Tito was conecting.[/quote]

Really? Then why did Randy Couture seem surprised that the fight was stopped? Play back the fight and listen to Couture who was sitting right next to the action!

He latter backpedaled as he didn’t want the ref to look bad. But his initial reaction was one of shock!

Why? Because his first reaction was that he didn’t think the fight should have been stopped

Wrong…It had everything to do with the ref not being aware of where the blows were landing and other important factors.

He needs some retraining.

And you…um you probably need to finish High School.

And me…I definitely need to stop debating teens…

See…we all can learn.

89

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

Bad analogy and standing v. prone. He was prone and not defending himself. Regardless if we disagree on glancing v. solid blows, dazed v. “wide eyed”, the intent of the rules is clear: to safeguard against serious injury - not to suffer a serious injury so you can be satisifed he “lost” for your money.[/quote]

Well, I never mentioned anything about money, did I?

My point is that he WAS NOT in any danger. And as I have stated he proved that when he popped up and wondered why (like the rest of us) the fight was stopped. This includes Randy Couture. Replay the fight and listen to Coutures initial comments. And he was sitting right next to the action.

“Prone?” Who cares? Plenty of fighers actually win from the prone position. You know that.

Some glancing and or partial forearms that did not have much of an impact.

I agree with you here. But what does that mean? Does it mean that he is about to be KO’d? Does it mean he is suffering brain damage?

I can think of many fights that have taken place in the UFC that should have been stopped before this one.

I disagree, ole’ Herb looked like an inexperienced fan stopping that bout. I wonder why McCarthy was not refereeing that one?

No not at all. In fact that is my point. Shamrock was obviously “safe.” If he was even dazed a little he would not have gotten up …Hold on …it was more like he BOUNCED up,then argued about it stoppage.

As they say the proof is in the pudding!

I guess before the fight started we (who know anything about mma) knew he was not going to be able to do any of these things.

But…they are actually suppose to prove it once the fight starts.

I could not care less about a “quart of blood.”

This was simply BAD refereeing!

Real Bad!

And that’s not good for the game.

90

[quote]slimjim wrote:
Shamrock has no one to blame but himself for that stoppage, if you are laying on your back with your hands next to your head while eating elbows, you cannot cry about the ref stopping it.[/quote]

Eureka…there is intelligent life after all! Short, concise, to the point and above all…ACCURATE. Good post!

91

[quote]ZEB wrote:
MaloVerde wrote:
ZEB wrote:

I’ve been in a few scrapes in my time. Some not so bad. Others pretty nasty. Of course that was a while ago when I used to do the bar scene.

You equate drunken bar brawls to MMA experience? Right.

Are you an amnesia victim?

You said this: You have obviously never been in a fight or gotten hit that many times.

You did not mention mma experience did you?

And, I never mentioned that I was ever involved in any “drunken bar brawls.”

So on the one hand you cannot remember what you said. And on the other hand you are assuming what I stated instead of actually reading it.

That makes you 0 for 2 so far.

I don’t think it’s the amount of unanswered punches that matter. It’s more of where and how they land. And of course who is taking them and who is giving them.

You just made my point.

No, actually I made my point. Did you forget who you are?

The cut fighter was still defending himself.

I brought that up to point out that someone can be cut and LOOK very badly hurt but it’s not so. And in Shamrocks case someone can be catching a few elbows…or forearms as the case might be and also not be hurt.

Boxers where very large gloves compared to mma fighters. Yet, many become brain injured and sometimes with no apparent cuts or scrapes. It’s the repeated blows to the head over a period of time, jarring the brain that cause long lasting damage. Not that one fight cannot do it…it can but usually not.

Again you make my point. Five unanswered blows. You are encouraging the refs to allow 19 unanswered blows.

You’re and odd duck. But then again this is the Internet and well…

My point is that it depends. Sometimes someone can take 10 unanswered blows and be okay. Othertimes it only takes ONE and the fight should be stopped.

To make it even more simpler for you: It has to do with the damage done to the fighter who has received the blows.

D o Y o u U n d e r s t a n d ?

If Shamrock had any problems with the blows from Titos elbow he would not have popped up so fast after the ref stepped in prematurely. There might even be a case that Tito’s elbows were more glancing blows and that’s why Shamrock did not bother to defend them. If you understand fighting you know that sometimes you take a few shots to deliver one big one…or in the case of mma a submission hold etc.

Did you watch the same fight. Even the live view you could tell Tito was conecting.

Really? Then why did Randy Couture seem surprised that the fight was stopped? Play back the fight and listen to Couture who was sitting right next to the action!

He latter backpedaled as he didn’t want the ref to look bad. But his initial reaction was one of shock!

Why? Because his first reaction was that he didn’t think the fight should have been stopped

Because the ref stopped it at the proper time. Did you look at Ken’s face when he was walking back to the dressing room. His cheeks were fucked.

Okay how old are you?

Are you still a teenager?

He had a red mark on his left cheek bone. BIG DEAL!

Again because the ref stopped it before the beating got out of hand. Just because someone can stay concious after 19 unanswered blows does not mean it should be allowed to happen.

5 defenseless, unanswered blows is plenty.

Oh I see…so it doesn’t matter where the blows land, who is throwing them or his is on the recieving end. Nor does it matter the position that the person is in when he takes the blows. And it matters not if they are fresh as in the first couple of minutes, or very tired in the later rounds…RIGHT?

Then according to your logic if someone hits another in the shoulder 5 times the match is over.

Get real.

Please tell me you’re a kid. Restore my faith in adulthood.

I didn’t equate my experience to bar room fights, so how would you know what my experience is. I have never fought a professional fight. There now you know my experience.

At this point in the debate I’m less concerned with how much ma experience you have and more concerned that you are probably in 10th grade.

Zeb,
How you can relate your drunken bar room brawls to having fight experience is beyond me.

Oh…I really love this kid…

Never said a word about “drunken brawls” kid.

The fight did end too soon, but that has nothing to do with the ref ending the fight.

Wrong…It had everything to do with the ref not being aware of where the blows were landing and other important factors.

He needs some retraining.

And you…um you probably need to finish High School.

And me…I definitely need to stop debating teens…

See…we all can learn.

[/quote]

Zeb, with all due respect, read your post; you will quickly conclude that you are in a pissing contest and you’re arguing semantics. Bottom line - the man was taking uncontested elbows with no effort to defend himself or deflect the elbows…he is prone…when is it ok to stop? When he goes limp? A sanctioned regulated fight isn’t a contest until someone else is unconscious. It’s easy to second guess these decisions after the fact but Dean has to make a split second decision. I’d say five unanswered elbows is compelling. Do you think Dean had the luxury of a reply to see which blows were glancing and all the other miniutea you’re arguing to hold your position? C’mon man. What fucking excuse can Shamrock have for laying prone, taking repeated elbows with no attempt to block? Should Dean allow a 6th? If a 6th is OK what about a 7th and so forth? Do you want him to check Shamrock’s pupils? Think about your argument and consider that Dean didn’t have the luxury of this after the fact analysis. The stoppage was righteous.

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TheBodyGuard:

Since when is it ONLY about “uncontested blows?”

If I can punch you in the arm 8 times in a row does that mean that the fight should be stopped? No of course not!

It’s about “perceived damage” by the referee. And in this case Dean was sleeping.

No one wants to see anyone seriously hurt in a mma contest, least of all me. I am usually the person who is saying that a stoppage was good. But this was so blatantly wrong that I simply cannot agree with it.

Again, It’s not a matter of "five punches, ten punches or seven punches. It’s a matter of exactly where they land, how they land, the postition of the head/body when they land. If the fighter is fresh or weary from many minutes of fighting when they land. And most importantly, how the fighter is reacting who is receiving the punishment.

Shamrock looked fresh when it was over. As I have stated he bounded up like he was fresh and ready to fight. And add to that Randy Coutures initial surprise. And there’s a guy who has been there and done that many times.

That fight was stopped early!

Yes, Tito was the likely winner. But as I said on a previous post, we sort of all new that prior to the second fight didn’t we?

However, the fact that it was stopped early does a disservice to both Ortiz who now has a jaded victory. Shamrock who was robbed the opportunity to rally. And the fans who trust and respect the UFC for it’s integrity.

Again, we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

If it’s any consolation I think you are usually right on your assessments 19 out of 20 times.

93

Here is the post-fight interviews of UFC 61 thanks again to the fabulous YouTube.

Zeb I tend to agree with most of your points mate.

94

Zeb, I guess I am struck with two questions I would like to pose.

  1. If you were Herb Dean, what would you have done differently?

  2. If I owned UFC and appointed you COO tomorrow, what would you do in response to this fight?

For what it is worth, I currently own 3 seperate businesses and had this discussion with the President of our most profitable company, who is a big fan of UFC, so I would love to contrast your opinions with his.

Remember, the UFC is a business.

You are now the COO of UFC.

What is your action plan moving forward?

I do not live in a world where it is sufficient to just debate and offer criticism.

I eagerly await your reply.

95

I don’t know if I’d call it “dancing.”

Well, in Sylvia’s case, the Monster Mash maybe…

96

Lets face it, we all expected Ken to get his ass kicked. It just so happened to only take 1:18 to do this. We ALL know he was NOT going to be getting up from that until either 1. the bell rang or 2. the fight was stopped. It was going to happen before the round was over anyway. I’m more pissed that Arlovski didn’t knock Sylvia out. I hate that fucking guy’s facial hair.

97

What the hell was that? One of the most hyped up fights in UFC ever and this happens in like 1 minute something. Shamrock got robbed…

Only good fight was Joe “Daddy” vs Yves, the rest were pretty poor.

Only other good thing about the event was the fact Wandy is gonna fight Chuck hopefully as long as he beats Babalu, War Chuck!

98

[quote]Sh!fty wrote:
What the hell was that? One of the most hyped up fights in UFC ever and this happens in like 1 minute something. Shamrock got robbed…

[/quote]

They had to hype it up, or else it would be apparent how bad it was going to suck balls and no one would have bought it.

99

[quote]apwsearch wrote:
Zeb, I guess I am struck with two questions I would like to pose.

  1. If you were Herb Dean, what would you have done differently?[/quote]

simply waited! And while waiting looked very carefully at Ken Shamrock to see if those blows were actually effecting him. Not “assume” that they were.

At this point I would go to each contestant and ask if they want one more final fight. Other than that, there is not much to say or do. You almost have to back up your referee publicly. But I would have a serious sit down talk with Dean in private to make sure that something like this did not happen again.

[quote]For what it is worth, I currently own 3 seperate businesses and had this discussion with the President of our most profitable company, who is a big fan of UFC, so I would love to contrast your opinions with his.

Remember, the UFC is a business.

You are now the COO of UFC.

What is your action plan moving forward?

I do not live in a world where it is sufficient to just debate and offer criticism.

I eagerly await your reply.[/quote]

Fans want to see a good fight. But no fight should ever go beyond what is safe for the fighters simply to please certain blood thirsty fans.

Unfortunately this fight was an example of what happens when to much caution is used.

100

[quote]msousa20 wrote:
I personally think Tito Ortiz is cocky, arrogant, self absorbed, and an all around asshole. Flipping someone off with both fingers is just fuckin disrespectful and I have no respect whatsoever for Tito. I loved seeing him lose that one time…it was classic. I think if Tito were any kind of man, he would of said “If Dana White will agree, I will rematch Shamrock right here, right now.” If Ortiz had done that, he would gain my respect. What do you guys think?
[/quote]

What the hell are you talking about? That one time? Do you mean to Randy or to Chuck? Or one of his other loses? This isnt aleksandr karelin we’re talking about here, the man is not invincible.

And how the hell can you have a 3rd match when one guy’s already won the first two? With Chuck-Randy and AA-Silvia, each fighter was 1-1 in the series and needed another win to prove that they hadnt just gotten lucky one time. What if - and its a big if - shamrock won this hypothetical third fight? What would that prove? He’s still lost to Tito twice. No matter what your opinion of the second fight, Ken lost VERY badly in the first - I ask again, what the heck would a third fight prove?