That Sylvia-Arlovski fight was horrible.
Tito-Shamrock was a foregone conclusion. They should never fight each other again. Sylvia and Arlovski should not fight each other again.
Silva-Liddell should be entertaining at worst. Liddell should fight Silva even if he loses to Sobral. That would still be a good fight.
Good I do not have to pay or the UFC. This card did not look good from the beginning.
[quote]TWalton wrote:
Chad Waterbury wrote:
I, too, was extremely disappointed when the Ortiz/Shamrock fight ended so early. I was really hoping for a longer battle.
The fact of the matter is, the UFC is being monitored very closely by some powerful regulatory commissions. When someone is being beaten down, and doesn’t defend themself, they must stop the fight.
Ortiz landed 5 vicious, unanswered elbows to Shamrock’s head without Shamrock even raising his arms to defend himself. You’ve gotta put yourself in Dean’s shoes: he knows that he must stop a fight if a fighter isn’t intelligently defending himself. And when you watch the replay in normal time, and when you consider that a ref must make split-second decisions, I think the stoppage was definitely justified.
If Shamrock had the wherewithal to jump up and aruge the stoppage, why didn’t he have the wherewithal to cover his head when he was being pounded?
Shamrock was in a severe situation, and he wasn’t defending himself. So I agree with Couture’s sentiment that the stoppage was justified.
Too bad, though. I was hoping for a longer beating from each side.
Yes, the UFC is being monitored by some heavy duty regs but I am not so sure that the blows that Shamrock took were all that severe. They certainly looked bad, perhaps worse than they actually were.
My thinking is that, sure, he got hit, but they obviously didn’t affect him that much, despite how bad they looked, hence, the getting up so quickly. Maybe, too, that is why he wasn’t defending himself. I don’t know. It would have been nice to see him do SOMETHING, either with his hands/arms or legs. Who knows, maybe he was getting hit with the meaty part of Tito’s forearm, maybe they were hitting Shamrock’s “sweet spot” (that rock hard part of the forehead that can break 2x4’s and bricks), or maybe he was out and just didn’t know it (bad situation).
I do know, by the sounds of things, virtually everyone thinks that it got stopped too quickly. Changes have to be made. Again, I don’t have all the answers. I mentioned earlier something like a standing 8. How about a standing 3. Break up the combatants, check the fighter, if he doesn’t get up, or is slow (the "standing 3 count), show’s over. If, however, he does get up and is somewhat coherent/conscious, continue from the standing position. That is where this fight would have gone.
Yes, it takes the advantage away from the guy on top. If the other guy can continue, like Shamrock appeared capable of, then we get our moneys (sp?) worth, the fighters are content to move on and their is no controversy.
The downside is that this has gone from No Holds Barred to a lot of rules. Is that a good thing or bad thing. The answer, unfortunately, is Yes.
Anyway, some more thoughts that I’ve had. Still don’t know the answers.[/quote]
In Shooto they have/had standing counts. I do not know if that is in the best interests of the fighter’s health.
They should just train the referees better. They should go over tape and identify which situations are dangerous. Tey should make things consistant. Review every fight.
Those who witnessed the Gracie/Hughes fight know that John McCarthy stopped that fight at the proper time. I think it was probably 19 unanswered blows to the side and back of the head.
You always give these guys who have been around a shot at coming back. How many fights do they have left?
The ref stopping the Shamrock/Ortiz fight after only 5 or so unanswered elbows was ridiculous.
Granted Shamrock was probably done after 3 or 4 more. But maybe he could have turned it around and at least made it a better contest. We will never know…
Unfortunately, because of bad refereeing we will have to sit through yet another Ortiz/Shamrock fight. But the difference is…I’M NOT PAYING TO SEE THE THIRD ONE.
Am I?
Why spend money on it when its always free on YouTube the next day?
[quote]KBCThird wrote:
I dont understand why so many people thought they were getting every single fight. Did everyone just gloss over where it said “may not be broadcast” on the website?[/quote]
99.999% of people don’t order fights off of the website. They watch the commercials and hit “Purchase” on their remotes.
A longer version, more after match bullshit.
[quote]PGA200X wrote:
Why spend money on it when its always free on YouTube the next day?
Thanks for the link. That fight sucked and was called too early.
I would like to see some other angles. I could not tell if those elbows were scoring.
[quote]doogie wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
I dont understand why so many people thought they were getting every single fight. Did everyone just gloss over where it said “may not be broadcast” on the website?
99.999% of people don’t order fights off of the website. They watch the commercials and hit “Purchase” on their remotes.[/quote]
Right and the dark matches werent advertised on tv - were they? I think the only mention of the undercard was on the website. The only ads I saw advertised the HW championship and the ortiz - shamrock match.
Plus if you do the math, 8 non champ bouts at 17 minutes per ( since you have to allow for all 3 five minute rounds with a minute in between each, even if they dont all go the distance) plus a 29 minute champ bout would be 2 hours and 45 minutes - and anyone who thinks that mike goldberg can be limited to 15 minutes of breathless hyperbole to build up the next match is regrettably mistaken
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Those who witnessed the Gracie/Hughes fight know that John McCarthy stopped that fight at the proper time. I think it was probably 19 unanswered blows to the side and back of the head.
You always give these guys who have been around a shot at coming back. How many fights do they have left?
The ref stopping the Shamrock/Ortiz fight after only 5 or so unanswered elbows was ridiculous.
Granted Shamrock was probably done after 3 or 4 more. But maybe he could have turned it around and at least made it a better contest. We will never know…
Unfortunately, because of bad refereeing we will have to sit through yet another Ortiz/Shamrock fight. But the difference is…I’M NOT PAYING TO SEE THE THIRD ONE.
Am I?[/quote]
If you think 19 unanswered blows is an acceptable scale to guage when a fight should be stopped then you have obviously never been in a fight or gotten hit that many times. Shamrock’s face was already showing signs of a beat down.
These are regulated MMA contests, not a smash you until you are permanently brain damaged and can’t compete again contests.
MMA will never get Nation wide regulation if fighters are constantly getting their skulls smashed in and beaten to a pulp.
The days of the original, no rules blood sport UFC are gone. It is now a skill based sport where training and discipline are the keys to victory.
I’m not a Ken Shamrock fan, but I would much rather see him be pissed off, walk out of the octagon and fight again then be in acoma.
5 defenseless, unanswered blows is plenty.
All I can say is: “What the fuck?!”
My GF’s brother took the time to buy the PPV of this and after the Ortiz-Shamrock debacle as a group (family night LOL) we were mostly underwhelmed by the sudden ending of the bout… The first fight was a serious blood fest though & props to the fighter who still wanted to continue despite leaving most of his blood on the canvas.
I wonder what the UFC & Dana White are going to do PR campaign wise now that a lot of the people that shelled out money to catch this were left watching stand-up brawling matches and not enought take-downs or G&P.
Judging from the other posts and replies on this thread I can say as a group were just a bit ticked off the matches ended up the way they did…
Randy Couture has a future in UFC commentating 
Man had some good talk and no BS
Looking forward to UFC 4 with him & GSP.
[quote]MaloVerde wrote:
If you think 19 unanswered blows is an acceptable scale to guage when a fight should be stopped then you have obviously never been in a fight or gotten hit that many times. Shamrock’s face was already showing signs of a beat down.[/quote]
I’ve been in a few scrapes in my time. Some not so bad. Others pretty nasty. Of course that was a while ago when I used to do the bar scene.
I don’t know what that has to do with this or any other mma fight.
However, you did say some interesting things that need a response.
I don’t think it’s the amount of unanswered punches that matter. It’s more of where and how they land. And of course who is taking them and who is giving them.
You said: “Shamrock’s face was already showing signs of a beat down.”
Anyone who understands fighting and how a fighter actually gets hurt knows that there need not be any blood at all on a fighters face for him to have serious brain damage. And sometimes there is a great deal of blood with no real damage at all. A good example of that was a fight that took place on the same card as Shamrock/Ortiz. The fighter had a small gash on his head. But if you look at the amount of blood he lost you would think that the other fighter knifed him.
Boxers where very large gloves compared to mma fighters. Yet, many become brain injured and sometimes with no apparent cuts or scrapes. It’s the repeated blows to the head over a period of time, jarring the brain that cause long lasting damage. Not that one fight cannot do it…it can but usually not.
If Shamrock had any problems with the blows from Titos elbow he would not have popped up so fast after the ref stepped in prematurely. There might even be a case that Tito’s elbows were more glancing blows and that’s why Shamrock did not bother to defend them. If you understand fighting you know that sometimes you take a few shots to deliver one big one…or in the case of mma a submission hold etc.
Once again, no skulls smashed and no pulp was beaten…
That makes two of us. I don’t think Shamrock was ever that good. And certainly not good enough to beat any of the top fighters of today. But he was very very far from a coma…And I think you know that.
[quote]5 defenseless, unanswered blows is plenty.
[/quote]
I think that’s a blanket statement rooted in inexperience.
There are plenty of ways to strike someone and plenty of ways for someone to take those strikes.
One (and only one there are many more) example:
If a fighters head is trapped between the floor and the cage and someone is repeatedly striking that head with solid punches, and the person being struck is offerring no defense then the fight should be stopped. As those are obviously solid shots with the head having no place to go.
On the other hand…
If you review the Shamrock/Ortiz fight once more you will see that Shamrocks head was not crammed into a situation where he could not move it. And that a few of Tito’s elbow strikes were indeed “glancing.”
No one wants anyone to become permanently injred because of a mma fight. But the point of a fight is to see who the better fighter is on that night.
That’s one reason why I like mma over other styles of fighting such as boxing. If a contestant is being injured or in some sort of jeoporday he is allowed to “tap out.” Obviously a fighter will not always be in full command of his faculties and be able to take that option. But we can see in hindsight that Ken Shamrock was in full command of his faculties as he literally jumped up when the fight was stopped and practically demanded that it continue.
An injured fighter does not act that way in most cases.
Finally, both fighters pass physicals and are in shape to fight it out. Unless there is obvious damage to a fighter (and he is unable to tap out) the referee should stay out of it.
Referees should not be encouraged to step in prematurely as did the one who refereed the Shamrock/Ortiz match. That particular ref needs more schooling in how to understand the difference between someone who is injured and someone who is simply taking a few shots.
Randy Couture was the only star that night. Far far better than Rogan.
Sometimes I really marvel at the (un)intelligent quotient on this site. Are you all 16 year old pubescent tough guys? Judging by the comments, with some exceptions, some of you definitely are - no matter what your age.
The comments about Shamrock are assinine. Period. No one here even ventured the thought that Shamrock was going to come away from that position - you’re only pissed b/c the fight wasn’t long enough to entertain you. I was pissed too - but not at the stoppage. I was pissed at the UFC for thinking another Ortiz / Shamrock match would be good - especially given the beating Shamrock took the first time.
The only value of this match up was the hatred between them - it was the ONLY palpable selling point. Did any of you really think Shamrock could beat Tito after the last showing? So basically you’re pissed you were only entertained a short time. So what…he got to his feet fast after the stoppage. Did you see the look in his eyes? He was on “queer street”. Lights on - nobody home. Getting on your fucking feet is a survival response. Be mad at the UFC for making the match. Be disappointed in Shamrock for not being able to put on a better showing. Don’t be mad at Herb Dean. He did his damn job. His job isn’t to make sure you got value for your dollar - that was UFC’s obligation when match making!
Shamrock / Ortiz 3? R U FUCKING KIDDING ME? Some of you are idiots. Jesus christ if I saw you getting your ass whooped in the street and take 5 unanswered elbows to the head I’d help your sorry ass out before you die or end up riding the “short bus” to school. What would make you happy for your dollar…the next blow putting him to sleep or worse? Fucker wasn’t defending himself…period and end of story. It was an obvious mismatch - be mad at that!
On to other, less controversial matters…
I was a Mir fan - loads of potential. But for the life of me, I cannot understand how these so called “professional fighters”, like Mir, show up out of shape. Even at 240 or so, he was a bit soft and gassed all the time. At 260, he was a pig. The sad part of it is, the kid has skills. And the jelly roll he was fighting was similiarly out of shape. How do two fighters that can’t come into the octogon in decent shape make the grade for a PPV event. See my earlier points - blame the fucking UFC making the match! Mir should be relegated to the free fights on Spike until he is in shape. Then I will pay to watch him snap Silvia’s arm again.
Silvia / Arlovski? LMFAO (and some of you challenged me when I posted in other threads about the relative lack of talent in the UFC). First, if I want to see a fucking boxing match - I’ll tune in to see actual boxers that can box. Not two guys that couldn’t win Golden Gloves. Someone said they almost fell asleep - I did fall asleep, my girlfriend too. Silvia the heavyweight champ says it all. Arlovski was exposed. I wouldn’t cross the street to see them fight again. I will only tune in to see someone credible take the belt from Silvia. If I hear the Arlovski/pitbull reference again (I own/breed pitbulls), I think I’ll fucking puke. More like all bark Arlovski.
By the way, whoever made the 8 count suggestion was on point. Don’t know if it could work though. In a contest like MMA, where you work to get in position to finish an opponent - to have to reliquish that position so the opponent can be checked is an unfair advantage to the downed opponent. Unlike boxing, where such a count is an effective means to control injury and guard against too soon stoppages, MMA is a game of “checkmate”, not “check”. If I had worked my ass off for minutes to gain a mount, and you get a standing 8 count for my trouble, that is not fair. Might make for a longer fight - and entertain you better - but it seems unfair. Just my two cents.
How does UFC/Dana White recover from this?
Just fine, that’s how. He banks on the fact that the public’s attention span is about 5 miliseconds and the shelf life of its memory is half that.
How else to you explain boxing PPV’s still making money, especially the heavyweights, even today? If it is hyped, people will pay to see it.
Hell, the WWE makes shitloads on their PPV’s and the outcome is predictable.
On another note, that GSP fella is a snappy dresser.
Zeb, who i normally find insightful, wrote…
"If Shamrock had any problems with the blows from Titos elbow he would not have popped up so fast after the ref stepped in prematurely. There might even be a case that Tito’s elbows were more glancing blows and that’s why Shamrock did not bother to defend them. If you understand fighting you know that sometimes you take a few shots to deliver one big one…or in the case of mma a submission hold etc. "
"and that’s why Shamrock did not bother to defend them? What was that?? The “let the other guy tire out delivering elbows to my head defense”!!! C’mon…glancing or not (and they were not all glancing), he was not even ATTEMPTING to block them. For all your claimed experience, you should know Dean had no choice but to stop it. It’s not even worthy of an intelligent debate.
And by the way, for all the “faculties” you claim Shamrock had, HE KNOWS not defending those blows will result in a stoppage. I suggest you take a real good look at his eyes as he “protests” the stoppage. He was NOT all there. You must be kidding. I agree with some of your post…but he above was just …wrong.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Zeb, who i normally find insightful, wrote…
"If Shamrock had any problems with the blows from Titos elbow he would not have popped up so fast after the ref stepped in prematurely. There might even be a case that Tito’s elbows were more glancing blows and that’s why Shamrock did not bother to defend them. If you understand fighting you know that sometimes you take a few shots to deliver one big one…or in the case of mma a submission hold etc. "
"and that’s why Shamrock did not bother to defend them? What was that?? The “let the other guy tire out delivering elbows to my head defense”!!! C’mon…glancing or not (and they were not all glancing), he was not even ATTEMPTING to block them. For all your claimed experience, you should know Dean had no choice but to stop it. It’s not even worthy of an intelligent debate.
And by the way, for all the “faculties” you claim Shamrock had, HE KNOWS not defending those blows will result in a stoppage. I suggest you take a real good look at his eyes as he “protests” the stoppage. He was NOT all there. You must be kidding. I agree with some of your post…but he above was just …wrong.[/quote]
I have to disagree with you here my friend.
Shamrock did not look “rocked” in any way shape or form! He was Wide eyed and jumped up complaining immediately. Not at all like someone who has to shake his head, realizes what happened and still wants to fight.
How many fights have you seen where the other fighter takes a few shots? Whether it is intended or not? This was certainly not an exceptional situation. And only a couple of lebows looked to be landing solidly.
Try to look at it another way…
If they were in a standing position and Shamrock took five unanswered shots (some good some not so good) and he did NOT look dazed at all, would the fight have been stopped?
I don’t think so.
I’m not claiming that Shamrock was going to win that fight. But then again he should have at least been given the opportunity.
Perhaps the UFC rank and file thought that it was a mismatch and they were simply performing their end of a “self fulfilling prohpecy”?
But, I do respect your thoughts on the matter and I can see how you (and others) may think this. We have to agree to disagree this time.
Zeb
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I’ve been in a few scrapes in my time. Some not so bad. Others pretty nasty. Of course that was a while ago when I used to do the bar scene.[/quote]
You equate drunken bar brawls to MMA experience? Right.
You just made my point.
Making my point again. The cut fighter was still defending himself.
Again you make my point. Five unanswered blows. You are encouraging the refs to allow 19 unanswered blows.
Did you watch the same fight. Even the live view you could tell Tito was conecting.
MMA will never get Nation wide regulation if fighters are constantly getting their skulls smashed in and beaten to a pulp.
Because the ref stopped it at the proper time. Did you look at Ken’s face when he was walking back to the dressing room. His cheeks were fucked.
I’m not a Ken Shamrock fan, but I would much rather see him be pissed off, walk out of the octagon and fight again then be in acoma.
Again because the ref stopped it before the beating got out of hand. Just because someone can stay concious after 19 unanswered blows does not mean it should be allowed to happen.
5 defenseless, unanswered blows is plenty.
I didn’t equate my experience to bar room fights, so how would you know what my experience is. I have never fought a professional fight. There now you know my experience.
Zeb, re-read your responses. You pretty much make my point as to why the ref made the right call. How you can relate your drunken bar room brawls to having fight experience is beyond me. The fight did end too soon, but that has nothing to do with the ref ending the fight.
[quote]EmperialChina wrote:
I was rooting for Tito but I have to say Herb Dean must’ve been nervous because he called that way too damn soon. He should realize Shamrock can take more hits, but he called that way too damn soon. I bought the payperview and I have to say I am heavily disappointed in the refereeing. I like Herb Dean but I think it was called way too damn soon, they sould have given Shamrock way more time…ridiculous![/quote]
Man, I agree with you 100%. That fight was pure bullshit. As a die hard UFC fan, I was quite disappointed with Herb Dean’s decision to call off the fight so damn early. I personally think Tito Ortiz is cocky, arrogant, self absorbed, and an all around asshole. Flipping someone off with both fingers is just fuckin disrespectful and I have no respect whatsoever for Tito. I loved seeing him lose that one time…it was classic. I think if Tito were any kind of man, he would of said “If Dana White will agree, I will rematch Shamrock right here, right now.” If Ortiz had done that, he would gain my respect. What do you guys think?
When is Ken ever “all there”?
At least two of those elbows were forearms; they jostle you around a bit, but no real damage done. Ken did get tagged a couple times, but his neck was taut, and he was moving his head as the blow were coming down. While not blocking, I still consider that defense. Had he been limp, or jammed against the fence, I would have agreed with the stoppage.
I don’t grapple, but in stand up fights, I don’t bother to deflect blows that aren’t causing damage.
I’m not sure Ken would have regained his feet or dominant position, but I feel Ken should have been given more opportunity to try.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Sometimes I really marvel at the (un)intelligent quotient on this site. Are you all 16 year old pubescent tough guys? Judging by the comments, with some exceptions, some of you definitely are - no matter what your age.
The comments about Shamrock are assinine. Period. No one here even ventured the thought that Shamrock was going to come away from that position - you’re only pissed b/c the fight wasn’t long enough to entertain you. I was pissed too - but not at the stoppage. I was pissed at the UFC for thinking another Ortiz / Shamrock match would be good - especially given the beating Shamrock took the first time.
The only value of this match up was the hatred between them - it was the ONLY palpable selling point. Did any of you really think Shamrock could beat Tito after the last showing? So basically you’re pissed you were only entertained a short time. So what…he got to his feet fast after the stoppage. Did you see the look in his eyes? He was on “queer street”. Lights on - nobody home. Getting on your fucking feet is a survival response. Be mad at the UFC for making the match. Be disappointed in Shamrock for not being able to put on a better showing. Don’t be mad at Herb Dean. He did his damn job. His job isn’t to make sure you got value for your dollar - that was UFC’s obligation when match making!
Shamrock / Ortiz 3? R U FUCKING KIDDING ME? Some of you are idiots. Jesus christ if I saw you getting your ass whooped in the street and take 5 unanswered elbows to the head I’d help your sorry ass out before you die or end up riding the “short bus” to school. What would make you happy for your dollar…the next blow putting him to sleep or worse? Fucker wasn’t defending himself…period and end of story. It was an obvious mismatch - be mad at that!
On to other, less controversial matters…
I was a Mir fan - loads of potential. But for the life of me, I cannot understand how these so called “professional fighters”, like Mir, show up out of shape. Even at 240 or so, he was a bit soft and gassed all the time. At 260, he was a pig. The sad part of it is, the kid has skills. And the jelly roll he was fighting was similiarly out of shape. How do two fighters that can’t come into the octogon in decent shape make the grade for a PPV event. See my earlier points - blame the fucking UFC making the match! Mir should be relegated to the free fights on Spike until he is in shape. Then I will pay to watch him snap Silvia’s arm again.
Silvia / Arlovski? LMFAO (and some of you challenged me when I posted in other threads about the relative lack of talent in the UFC). First, if I want to see a fucking boxing match - I’ll tune in to see actual boxers that can box. Not two guys that couldn’t win Golden Gloves. Someone said they almost fell asleep - I did fall asleep, my girlfriend too. Silvia the heavyweight champ says it all. Arlovski was exposed. I wouldn’t cross the street to see them fight again. I will only tune in to see someone credible take the belt from Silvia. If I hear the Arlovski/pitbull reference again (I own/breed pitbulls), I think I’ll fucking puke. More like all bark Arlovski.
By the way, whoever made the 8 count suggestion was on point. Don’t know if it could work though. In a contest like MMA, where you work to get in position to finish an opponent - to have to reliquish that position so the opponent can be checked is an unfair advantage to the downed opponent. Unlike boxing, where such a count is an effective means to control injury and guard against too soon stoppages, MMA is a game of “checkmate”, not “check”. If I had worked my ass off for minutes to gain a mount, and you get a standing 8 count for my trouble, that is not fair. Might make for a longer fight - and entertain you better - but it seems unfair. Just my two cents.[/quote]
I pretty much agree. The fact that anyone would even consider Shamrock-Ortiz 3 kind of makes me sick. The fact that the second fight even happened is disheartening, it seems that theatrics are more valued than good fights these days. I still haven’t watched Tito-Shammy 3, but the comments remind me of Sakuraba-Shamrock where Ken appeared (to me, at least) to be unconcious and not defending himself, and the ref stopped the fight. Ken jumped right up and protested vehemntly, of course. He seems to have a fast recovery which makes stoppages appear premature when they were, in fact, not. Ken would have been in a world of shit if the ref hadn’t stopped Saku, IMHO.
It’s been done to death on here, but I am very unimpressed with the lack of basic boxing skills, esp. AA-Sylvia. For someone who came into MMA fandom from a striking sports (K-1 and boxing) background, it was endlessly frustrating watching AA-Syliva “throw down.”