Opinions of Chad Waterbury Programs?

Training Bodybuilding
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[quote]Professor X wrote:
Clifford wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Clifford wrote:
Professor X wrote:
FutureGL wrote:

That’s why I can’t find it…

All you’ll find now are the threads that led to it. They even had most of my responses erased from the article discussion thread that led to that “debate” (That Critic article he put out once). If you go back to read that discussion now, it looks like I never wrote anything contradicting what he wrote. All you’ll see are the praise posts.

ya but i remember reading it before it was deleted. unless i recall wrong it ended with CW saying something along the lines of “what do want? do you want me to just say your right?” after that you either never responded or you were no longer permitted to post in that thread. either way that was the best round table debate i have read here…while it lasted

You have a good memory. I did respond to that but it was erased almost right after I did.

I actually liked that thread.

I can see why he wouldn’t.

i figured as much its not your style to “just let things go” i wonder why it was all deleted i am pretty sure that wasn’t the first or last time a T-Nation coach has had to defend his stance to a reader. i makes me wonder what else has been swept under the rug.

In that particular instance, he was the one throwing all of the insults. I think after sitting back and reading it all, they finally realized that it just made him look bad. He assumed he was speaking to a “meathead”. It seemed to be a surprise to him when I informed him of my background and even my position in the military at the time.

At the end of it all, he seemed to be much less than the deity so many fanboys view him as.[/quote]

yup and we all know how fanboys make or break how much people will listen to what you say, you of all people probably know that. lol i cant help but wonder if CW is aware of this thread. i mean his name is on the topic title its not exactly subtle.

o by the way can i have your autograph?

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I feel like it’s not CW who should take the blame here. It’s the readers. I will not go back and search for exact quotes but for all that I know he was a dude who got started by submitted a grip training article to t-mag in 2001 and t-mag published it.

He said once (or more) that most of his clients have been “regular people” who obviously benefit from total body training type of methods. Currently, he trains MMA athletes, where muscle building is not a priority. I don’t think he never ever coached a seriously competitive bodybuilder all these years and if he did he never talked about it. See, when I looked at these facts, I was quick to figure out that no matter what his claims are, his opinions on building the most muscle(bodybuilding) were not very valuable. If the readers can’t see this then their bad.

Unfortunately this goes the other way, too. You would think that Scott Abel, who’s a bodybuilding coach and a bodybuilder himself, would get all the respect from bodybuilders but he doesn’t get half the respect that a “eat bigger, lift bigger!” guy gets because his training ideas are not very conventional - although they seem to be producing results just as well.

Basically, if people think the guy who admits never building a bodybuilding like physique is a actually a muscle building guru like he claims, then they are the ones to blame, not the author.

Likewise, if people think a world class strength coach, who actually has some very sensible advice for bodybuilders, is nothing but pure bullshit because every now and then he claims to put on 20 pounds eating avocados then the readers are stupid and not the author.

223

[quote]theceka wrote:
I feel like it’s not CW who should take the blame here. It’s the readers. I will not go back and search for exact quotes but for all that I know he was a dude who got started by submitted a grip training article to t-mag in 2001 and t-mag published it.

He said once (or more) that most of his clients have been “regular people” who obviously benefit from total body training type of methods. Currently, he trains MMA athletes, where muscle building is not a priority. I don’t think he never ever coached a seriously competitive bodybuilder all these years and if he did he never talked about it. See, when I looked at these facts, I was quick to figure out that no matter what his claims are, his opinions on building the most muscle(bodybuilding) were not very valuable. If the readers can’t see this then their bad.

Unfortunately this goes the other way, too. You would think that Scott Abel, who’s a bodybuilding coach and a bodybuilder himself, would get all the respect from bodybuilders but he doesn’t get half the respect that a “eat bigger, lift bigger!” guy gets because his training ideas are not very conventional - although they seem to be producing results just as well.

Basically, if people think the guy who admits never building a bodybuilding like physique is a actually a muscle building guru like he claims, then they are the ones to blame, not the author.

Likewise, if people think a world class strength coach, who actually has some very sensible advice for bodybuilders, is nothing but pure bullshit because every now and then he claims to put on 20 pounds eating avocados then the readers are stupid and not the author.[/quote]

I tend to agree for the most part…but the picture changes when discussing NEWBIES who believe whatever you tell them.

I am not sure if you have noticed, but there seem to be far less people around lately in gyms who actually think for themselves. Maybe it was always that way. However, we didn’t have instant access with all of them and their inane comments before websites became so easily accessible by all.

Much like Youtube has created a generation that thinks their own video taped farts deserve applause, likewise we have to deal with every jackass who thinks they are educated like doctors simply because they read an article.

I do believe that in that circumstance where the written word carries that much power, SOME responsibility falls directly on the writer and not just on the reader for not understanding it fully.

CW takes full advantage of cluelessness by using hyperbole to the fullest extent while ignoring how many people are taking him as being DEAD serious.

224

[quote]Professor X wrote:
theceka wrote:
I feel like it’s not CW who should take the blame here. It’s the readers. I will not go back and search for exact quotes but for all that I know he was a dude who got started by submitted a grip training article to t-mag in 2001 and t-mag published it.

He said once (or more) that most of his clients have been “regular people” who obviously benefit from total body training type of methods. Currently, he trains MMA athletes, where muscle building is not a priority. I don’t think he never ever coached a seriously competitive bodybuilder all these years and if he did he never talked about it. See, when I looked at these facts, I was quick to figure out that no matter what his claims are, his opinions on building the most muscle(bodybuilding) were not very valuable. If the readers can’t see this then their bad.

Unfortunately this goes the other way, too. You would think that Scott Abel, who’s a bodybuilding coach and a bodybuilder himself, would get all the respect from bodybuilders but he doesn’t get half the respect that a “eat bigger, lift bigger!” guy gets because his training ideas are not very conventional - although they seem to be producing results just as well.

Basically, if people think the guy who admits never building a bodybuilding like physique is a actually a muscle building guru like he claims, then they are the ones to blame, not the author.

Likewise, if people think a world class strength coach, who actually has some very sensible advice for bodybuilders, is nothing but pure bullshit because every now and then he claims to put on 20 pounds eating avocados then the readers are stupid and not the author.

I tend to agree for the most part…but the picture changes when discussing NEWBIES who believe whatever you tell them.

I am not sure if you have noticed, but there seem to be far less people around lately in gyms who actually think for themselves. Maybe it was always that way. However, we didn’t have instant access with all of them and their inane comments before websites became so easily accessible by all.

Much like Youtube has created a generation that thinks their own video taped farts deserve applause, likewise we have to deal with every jackass who thinks they are educated like doctors simply because they read an article.

I do believe that in that circumstance where the written word carries that much power, SOME responsibility falls directly on the writer and not just on the reader for not understanding it fully.

CW takes full advantage of cluelessness by using hyperbole to the fullest extent while ignoring how many people are taking him as being DEAD serious.[/quote]

To me it becomes a question of personal ethics, while i understand that you have to use some form of exaggeration and sensationalism in order to get read by anyone, there is a line that I would hope TRUE professionals would try to avoid crossing.

Its like what you put on your CV, we all embellish our responsibilities a little im sure when applying for jobs, we sort of have to to compete. But there’s a line, and those that cross it and get caught out look really fuckin dumb and deserve every bit of bad mouthing and discrediting that they get.

Same with this sort of thing in my opinion.

225

If he simply chose his target audience right (beginners, mma fighters, people who might need to spice things up etc.) and delivered realistic expectations he would be respected more but probably make a lot less money and not be famous enough to write in national magazines… But I personally just can’t blame him for choosing to make more money. Everybody does some marketing and I can’t decide just how much is ok.

I do agree with the newbies part - what you learn initially sticks with you in the long run most of the times. Unless you’re open minded to learn better.

Ok I wasn’t going to do this but just so people get the point I’m trying to make. This is quoting CW:

“After a recent seminar, a famous strength trainer told me I should market myself as the guy who could revolutionize bodybuilding. There’s only one small problem with that ? I don’t like bodybuilding. Yep, you heard me right, never have liked it, probably never will. I see most competitive bodybuilders as overly tanned, overly shaved, waddling pieces of uneducated flesh and I have no interest in that market.”

I mean… Can you really read what I’ve quoted above and believe him when he tells you that he will give you the best hypertrophy program ever created in the next paragraph or so? Does one not see the incredible irony that he published a book called “Muscle Revolution” after what he wrote here? It’s so obvious stuff that it’s hard to blame him.

226

[quote]Professor X wrote:
<<< You have a good memory. >>>[/quote]

No doubt.

This is nothing new as I’ve said it before and to him. It’s not that Chad is an idiot or doesn’t have anything valuable to say and I don’t honestly think he’s trying to deceive anybody.

Number one, he needs to leave bodybuilding alone. That just isn’t his strong suit. He also needs to be a bit wiser in his use of literary hyperbole. Use the parentheses sometimes. [quote]Pussy curls" (just kidding, but you get my point)[/quote] or something like that. It was those 2 words that were the most immediate springboard for that fiasco if I recall correctly.

Some inexperienced younger guys could be forgiven for believing that isolation movements and splits were a waste of time based on what he was saying for a while there.

There’s this concern for people getting fat because of what somebody says in the forums, but none over the guys with lagging body parts and small arms having lost several months or a year of prime training time because they believed what an author said.

Even though they bear responsibility for leaping into action without reading more of what he said, or what anybody else said for that matter. He does use isolation exercises and not all of his programs are strictly not splits. Some of those articles were phrased in such that you’d never know that though.

People can do whatever they want, but it shouldn’t take that long to figure out whether something is contributing to your goals or not.

227

anytime brother.

like you, I have a decent knowledge and am learning as i go along. and lemme say i hate getting instantly flamed when i or anyone else asks a question on here.

What the Fuck would be the point of a bodybuilding forum in the first place?

But anyways, over the past 2 years ive cut back on fat and have been eating clean, and I started out with 15 inch arms 2 years ago and now theyre a little over 17 inches when im fully pumped, which is alot to me, a guy who has long ass arms(im 6 foot 5 inches tall).

but enough rambling. Def dont listen to guys tellin you to get extra cals from McDonalds and whatnot, if you want to grow, get em from Whey and Chicken breasts haha.

i think i might do your chest routine tonight BTW.

Good luck and keep me posted on your progress!

228

[quote]Professor X wrote:
hardcoreraymond wrote:

but what do i know im only 6’5 and 220 lbs of muscle. but my post count is low so therefore i dont know shit.

You are 6’5". 220lbs at that height isn’t that big. That would be relative to someone at 6 feet weighing about 180-185lbs.[/quote]

i’m not a huge guy, but i know what made my muscles grow.

229

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Professor X wrote:
<<< You have a good memory. >>>

No doubt.

This is nothing new as I’ve said it before and to him. It’s not that Chad is an idiot or doesn’t have anything valuable to say and I don’t honestly think he’s trying to deceive anybody.

Number one, he needs to leave bodybuilding alone. That just isn’t his strong suit. He also needs to be a bit wiser in his use of literary hyperbole. Use the parentheses sometimes. Pussy curls" (just kidding, but you get my point) or something like that. It was those 2 words that were the most immediate springboard for that fiasco if I recall correctly.

Some inexperienced younger guys could be forgiven for believing that isolation movements and splits were a waste of time based on what he was saying for a while there.

There’s this concern for people getting fat because of what somebody says in the forums, but none over the guys with lagging body parts and small arms having lost several months or a year of prime training time because they believed what an author said.

Even though they bear responsibility for leaping into action without reading more of what he said, or what anybody else said for that matter. He does use isolation exercises and not all of his programs are strictly not splits. Some of those articles were phrased in such that you’d never know that though.

People can do whatever they want, but it shouldn’t take that long to figure out whether something is contributing to your goals or not.

[/quote]

He writes in ways that attract the clueless fanboys who will stick with everything he says whether it is actually working or not. They won’t quit doing it out of loyalty for who they think is a true guru of all things about weight lifting.

Wolbarret on this site was a prime example of someone whose shoulders were lagging BIG TIME because he was following routines that excluded any and all isolation work for shoulders…so no side laterals.

If you go around telling everyone that bodybuilder muscles are weak and that they can’t even climb stairs, clueless newbs WILL believe it. They will in turn avoid and ignore every big guy in the gym thinking they are all clueless…which is about as retarded as you can get.

But hey, when you have one author who literally seems to HATE anyone with muscles over 220lbs and CW who acts like every big guy you see is about to have a heart attack, expect for there to be nothing but hoards of skinny newbs actually thinking their lack of results makes them better somehow.

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[quote]hardcoreraymond wrote:
Professor X wrote:
hardcoreraymond wrote:

but what do i know im only 6’5 and 220 lbs of muscle. but my post count is low so therefore i dont know shit.

You are 6’5". 220lbs at that height isn’t that big. That would be relative to someone at 6 feet weighing about 180-185lbs.

i’m not a huge guy, but i know what made my muscles grow.[/quote]

I’m not trying to discourage you, I am telling you what the reality is. People who are sedentary will think ANY amount of muscle they can see makes you built. If that is who you are listening to, your opinion is going to be skewed.

Someone your height is at ideal weight for a sedentary person at that height at 220lbs. That isn’t exactly “big”.

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[quote]Professor X wrote:

I’m not trying to discourage you, I am telling you what the reality is. People who are sedentary will think ANY amount of muscle they can see makes you built. If that is who you are listening to, your opinion is going to be skewed.

Someone your height is at ideal weight for a sedentary person at that height at 220lbs. That isn’t exactly “big”.[/quote]

i agree with you, and i do have alot of respect for what you say

I didnt mean to sound like im bragging about my height and weight. i’m just proud of my own personal gains, me being a person that once hit 26-27% BF who is now at about 15% and still going down, and also a person who’s body didnt grow muscle for a long time because of a retarded “know-it-all” attitude and never doing “REAL” training

so yeah, any pretentiousness or bragging-like remarks weren’t intentional… much respect.

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Raymond, please don’t take this as bragging because I’m not, I’m just like anyone else on here trying to learn something to help me in my quest, and don’t consider myself anything special. I’m also 6’5" and I know the problems us taller people face in regards to showing muscle. I’m at 270ish and 17% bf, and still feel small. I’m carrying a bit more weight than I’d like but the thing is, I’m seeing my best gains as far as strength and size are concerned.

At my age (36) I’ve got a limited time frame I’m dealing with. My one true regret is thinking that abs mattered when I was younger. Had I just simply ate big, trained big, and slept big, I have no doubt I’d be a mammoth today. Instead I bought into the bullshit, I believed the hype.

233

[quote]Aggro wrote:
Raymond, please don’t take this as bragging because I’m not, I’m just like anyone else on here trying to learn something to help me in my quest, and don’t consider myself anything special. I’m also 6’5" and I know the problems us taller people face in regards to showing muscle. I’m at 270ish and 17% bf, and still feel small. I’m carrying a bit more weight than I’d like but the thing is, I’m seeing my best gains as far as strength and size are concerned.

At my age (36) I’ve got a limited time frame I’m dealing with. My one true regret is thinking that abs mattered when I was younger. Had I just simply ate big, trained big, and slept big, I have no doubt I’d be a mammoth today. Instead I bought into the bullshit, I believed the hype.[/quote]

What bullshit and hype are you referring to? I’m increasing my calories and changing my routine do gain mass, but I’m also adding some cardio and reducing carbs to lose fat. (Show some abs)

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Spur it on troll, spur it on.

Your desperation is starting to stink at this point.

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[quote]Aggro wrote:
Raymond, please don’t take this as bragging because I’m not, I’m just like anyone else on here trying to learn something to help me in my quest, and don’t consider myself anything special. I’m also 6’5" and I know the problems us taller people face in regards to showing muscle. I’m at 270ish and 17% bf, and still feel small. I’m carrying a bit more weight than I’d like but the thing is, I’m seeing my best gains as far as strength and size are concerned.

At my age (36) I’ve got a limited time frame I’m dealing with. My one true regret is thinking that abs mattered when I was younger. Had I just simply ate big, trained big, and slept big, I have no doubt I’d be a mammoth today. Instead I bought into the bullshit, I believed the hype.[/quote]

yeah i feel ya man. when i was younger i was curlung with my back, getting stuck under the bar, and almost NEVER doing legs besides dumbass machine bullshit, rather than doing heavy squats and intense hamstring work. i admit that i still lack on calves because they just dont seem to grow (stuck at 16 inches), but w/e ive made fucking progress

now off to the gym i go

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[quote]Professor X wrote:
<<< He writes in ways that attract the clueless fanboys who will stick with everything he says whether it is actually working or not. They won’t quit doing it out of loyalty for who they think is a true guru of all things about weight lifting. >>>[/quote]

You believe he does this by design.

I thought back about this for several minutes before responding. I’ll just say I hope you’re wrong. There’s no doubt that this happens though.

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[quote]Aggro wrote:
At my age (36) I’ve got a limited time frame I’m dealing with. My one true regret is thinking that abs mattered when I was younger. Had I just simply ate big, trained big, and slept big, I have no doubt I’d be a mammoth today. Instead I bought into the bullshit, I believed the hype.[/quote]

I’m sorry to say, but this is a myth. Every single guy your age says the same shit.

“If only I hadn’t cared about my abs so much back then, I’d be huge.”

If you hadn’t cared about your abs, you still would have been skinny because you were young. I take it you weren’t intentionally starving yourself back then? How many calories do you eat to maintain your weight now?

I don’t see what you have to complain about in this department. You’re 270 lbs. and undoubtedly have an easier time putting on size now than when you were 21. If you really want to hit 300, use AAS.

For further confirmation of this myth, look at guys like Kevin Levrone and Tom Prince. They got huge when they were young, but now that both have retired and gone off the juice, they are tiny.

Prince looks like Vanilla Ice, and Levone is hardly any bigger than I am.

If your assertion was correct, both of them would still be carrying considerable size today because they built up such a huge “base” when they were younger. But they’re not. So much for that myth.

You’re as big now as you ever could be, pal. Enjoy it. Males do not reach their physical peak until 40.

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[quote]theceka wrote:

quoting Chad Waterbury here…
“After a recent seminar, a famous strength trainer told me I should market myself as the guy who could revolutionize bodybuilding. There’s only one small problem with that ? I don’t like bodybuilding. Yep, you heard me right, never have liked it, probably never will. I see most competitive bodybuilders as overly tanned, overly shaved, waddling pieces of uneducated flesh and I have no interest in that market.” [/quote]

I’d appreciate it if you could source that quote to some concrete origin. That’s a very damning quote to sling around w/o any source.

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It’s in the first couple paragraphs.

And I actually like the guys stuff.

240

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
theceka wrote:

quoting Chad Waterbury here…
“After a recent seminar, a famous strength trainer told me I should market myself as the guy who could revolutionize bodybuilding. There’s only one small problem with that ? I don’t like bodybuilding. Yep, you heard me right, never have liked it, probably never will. I see most competitive bodybuilders as overly tanned, overly shaved, waddling pieces of uneducated flesh and I have no interest in that market.”

I’d appreciate it if you could source that quote to some concrete origin. That’s a very damning quote to sling around w/o any source.[/quote]

Follow the link that WS4JB gave, it’s from ABBH.
Yeah sorry, I don’t know why I didn’t actually include the link.