I understand why some coaches don’t use olympic lifts with their athletes ( the learning curve…etc…). But if one already knows how to perform those lifts and uses them in one’s training, would you still need to perform speed bench presses and squats for power and strength-speed development or do the olympic lifts take care of that? For someone training to general athletism… Well, I’m talking about myself naturally, but I think there’s a lot of people like me reading this site i.e. not training for any sport, but to improve one’s overall physical capacities… Insights / opinions???
There is a lot more that can go into this question, but I will take the easy way out.
Yes, because of the musculature you are developing.
Cowboy,
Are you saying that BPs, Squats and DLs performed at 'light' weight with bands will elicit more hypertrophy than cleans, push-presses, snatch pulls, etcetera?
MOST IMPORTANTLY: Just how similar are “speed” lifts to “quick lifts” in effect?
It seems like the sort of muscle action that goes on during an OL is very different from that which goes in, for example, a band squat. For instance, the OLs begin without a weighted eccentric and feature a deliberate change in bar velocity from the first to second pulls and an unweighted squat under followed by a catch.
It seems like the effects of such a lift would differ from the effects of a band squat, where the lift begins with a weighted eccentric and variation in bar speed happens equably and involuntarily.
[quote] Are you saying that BPs, Squats and DLs performed at ‘light’ weight with bands will elicit more hypertrophy than cleans, push-presses, snatch pulls, etcetera? [quote]
I made no mention of using bands, light weight, or the use of bands. Will those exercises produce more hypertrophy than Oly variations? I have no clue. It would depend on many factors in program design such as rest periods, intensity, etc. I do not think that either exercise is really meant for building mass.
[quote] MOST IMPORTANTLY: Just how similar are “speed” lifts to “quick lifts” in effect? [quote]
Similar in what respect?
[quote] It seems like the sort of muscle action that goes on during an OL is very different from that which goes in, for example, a band squat. For instance, the OLs begin without a weighted eccentric and feature a deliberate change in bar velocity from the first to second pulls and an unweighted squat under followed by a catch.
It seems like the effects of such a lift would differ from the effects of a band squat, where the lift begins with a weighted eccentric and variation in bar speed happens equably and involuntarily.[/quote]
So if the effects are different, what difference does that make? Is having an eccentric movement advantageous?
The original question raises even more questions. For example, if one of the purposes of a speed bench or squat is to develop power, why not perform an Oly lift instead which produces more power? Is an Oly lift really a good exercise at developing power or just demonstrating power?
Note: I hope I have not sounded aggressive, that is not my point. Hopefully this generates more discussion.
[quote]Cowboy92 wrote:
Similar in what respect?
So if the effects are different, what difference does that make? Is having an eccentric movement advantageous?
[/quote]
You’re right - these are really the questions to ask.
Thinking over the lifts again, it seems like it the one thing unique to the OLs is the max-speed switch from the weighted second pull to the unsupported squat under.
The pull itself is like the deadlift. The squat itself, and the switch from riding the weight down into the hole to driving up, is like a dive-bomber squat or a plyo: Eccentric to concentric, as fast as you can. This ability to switch quickly from eccentric to concentric correlates to low foot-contact times, which correlate to low jumping/sprinting times (to make a gross oversimplification).
But the switch from the pull to the squat under is a move from a weighted concentric to an unweighted eccentric, as fast as you can. I wonder if this might not also have the effect of increasing speed, at least in movements involving more than one hip extension, by developing the ability to draw the hips back down after a forceful extension (like a running stride or a jump). I can’t think of any other sort of training that would target this sort of concentric-eccentric switching speed - only in OL do you HAVE to do the eccentric as fast as possible if you want to complete the lift.
I hope I’m on the right track here, or at least some track. I’m no sports scientist, but I’d like to have a more specific understanding of what makes OLs so popular and effective.
Interesting points Ross. It then raises more questions, if getting under the bar is advantageous at developing a certain quality, would just the pull not be as useful?
I will have to think more and hopefully post something useful. Maybe some input from other posters as well.
I love power cleans and snatches, but I am curious as to why there is such an “all or none” mentality with the O-lifts. Are high pulls (clean or snatch grip) not a reasonable compromise? They are both on the strength-speed side of the curve, and probably not far apart to boot. Why don’t people suggest this more?
dookie,
Maybe coaches think that because the pulls are supposed to have two stages (the first pull, with the legs, and the second, with the hips and back) that they're too complicated and that they can get more bang for their buck by just telling their athletes: 'Pull this barbell hard enough to catch it.'
However, I'm with you. I think that even though pull technique is harder to perfect (I have yet to do so, although I'm just starting) it is easier to approximate. Just yesterday I saw a young guy from my college execute pulls with good enough technique to get something out of them. After we were done lifting, he picked up the barbell and started to farmer's-walk it back to the weight room. I said 'Why not just clean it and walk it back it in rack?' He cleaned the weight almost entirely with his back, didn't dip, and barely managed to catch it with his sternum. Ouch!
Bump.
I’ll try to come at the Oly and Speed Lift contrast from a more provocative angle to see if I can entice some of the T-nation brains into pontificating on the subject:
When an athlete does a speed lift, he tries to move the bar as fast as possible but does not end up moving it that fast because of equably added resistance in the outside end of the range of motion (bands or chains). When an athlete does an O-lift, he DOES move the bar as fast as possible; he has to if he wants to make the lift. Can two ways of lifting so very different actually develop the same physical qualities?
[quote]
When an athlete does a speed lift, he tries to move the bar as fast as possible but does not end up moving it that fast because of equably added resistance in the outside end of the range of motion (bands or chains). When an athlete does an O-lift, he DOES move the bar as fast as possible; he has to if he wants to make the lift. Can two ways of lifting so very different actually develop the same physical qualities?[/quote]
Having used a Tendo Unit for awhile, I have found that adding bands or chains does not slow down the bar that much. I have observed some who will move just as fast (usually around .7-.8 m/s @ 50-60% 1RM). One also has to look at deacceleration of the bar without bands or chains. I don’t have any research to cite, but it is worth looking into.
Oly lifts are just faster, variations from the hang are the fastest. A full version has a fast pull, but a slower squat.
Your assertion is correct though. Speed drops off more in power lifts as you reach 1RM. In the Oly lifts time is pretty constant if you want the lift to be successful.
Can they develop the same physical qualities? Well power in the Oly lifts is way higher than power lifts. We are then back to the original question.
You are working different musculature in the squat if you only do Oly variations (common in athletics.) You are also able to use a box, overloaded eccentrics, and accommodating resistance in the power lifts. The benefits of these tools are well-known.
In my opinion, they are both worthwhile exercises. Both have many advantages and should be used in an athlete’s program.
Dookie,
I believe there is an all or none mentality to the OLs because you cannot strain on a max clean or snatch like you can a max bench, DL or squat.
As far as the concentric being slower with the bands, Louie has done studies showing the concentric is faster with the bands due to the overloaded eccentric. I will try to find the link later.
Obviously there is no pushing component to the OL, so the inclusion of the bench press is a must.
Regarding the ‘all or nothing’ mentality with the OL’s…I think many coaches (and many people on this website) are too hard-headed to really consider whether or not full OL’s (versus pulls or variations from the hang position) need to be performed. Too many people want to be ‘hard core’ and always perform full reps, which I think is ridiculous.
Here is my perspective…(keep in mind that I am a collegiate S&C coach, so I only write workouts for athletes, not bodybuilders).
The whole reason the OL’s are performed in an athletic development program is to improve the rate of force development (RFD) in the extension of the hips, knees, and ankles (AKA triple extension). While you can make the argument that dynamic effort squats do the same, I’ve never seen anyone move the bar as fast in a squat as in a OL movement.
The majority of the power developed during the lift occurs during the pull (the second pull to be precise, if you are going off the floor). At the conclusion of the second pull, the whole point of the exercise is over…that is to say that the objective of the exercise has been completed (triple extension).
From this point forward, I feel that the catch is really over-rated. I’ve got 2 reasons…first, the catch is the most difficult part of the lift to learn, and many athletes never get it right, and secondly, why would I want to sacrifice the weight on the bar during the pull for the sake of the catch?
For example, if I’ve got an athlete who can clean pull 300lbs, but has a terrible catch, and can only successfully clean 200lbs, why would I have him catch the bar? Why would I waste weeks of training time to get him to catch it properly, the whole time not training with weight that is not really challenging his body? I can’t justify it.
When I train athletes, (I train mostly basketball players), we will almost always go from the hang position (because of their height), and we will do hang high pulls and hang jump shrugs (we will vary between both the clean and snatch grip). The only OL variation that we catch is the DB Snatch (we do the DB snatch because it is a nice way to still get some triple extension work done while not loading up the spine too much as we would do with a heavier barbell).
I also don’t buy into the argument that dropping under the bar is worthwhile because of the eccentric-concentric switch. When done properly, the second pull of an OL actually contains a very large stretch-reflex in the hip extensors due to the pre-loading of the hamstrings. Certainly, when OL movements are perfomed from the hang position, the rapid change from eccentric to concentric also involves a similar stretch-reflex, (the stretch-reflex is NOT trained significantly during a dynamic effort box squat, which is one of the reasons we include them).
Our programs include the OL variations described above AND max box squats AND dynamic box squats, because all 3 of these movments have different objectives.
These are just one man’s opinions.
[quote]JSmith6539 wrote:
Obviously there is no pushing component to the OL, so the inclusion of the bench press is a must.
[/quote]
Mr. Smith,
Are you referring only to the pull+squat here? The push-press and jerk develop pressing strength, don't they?
Thank you for your argument for doing only the OL pulls - that makes a lot a sense - and for a glimpse into your training program.
[quote]hfrogs00 wrote:
As far as the concentric being slower with the bands, Louie has done studies showing the concentric is faster with the bands due to the overloaded eccentric. I will try to find the link later.[/quote]
Thanks for the correction. Should have remembered that. I believe that the study you’re referring to is described to some extent, at any rate, in the latter half of Supertraining.
[quote]hfrogs00 wrote:
Dookie,
I believe there is an all or none mentality to the OLs because you cannot strain on a max clean or snatch like you can a max bench, DL or squat.
As far as the concentric being slower with the bands, Louie has done studies showing the concentric is faster with the bands due to the overloaded eccentric. I will try to find the link later.[/quote]
It would be great if you could post that link, it sounds pretty interesting. I am surprised to read about bar speed being faster, I thought part of the point of using bands is that they act to decelerate the bar towards the end of the movement.
In response to your question about pressing…
First, I don’t include the push press as an OL. The push press certainly involves pressing strength. Keep in mind though, the push press involves vertical, over-head pressing strength, and only for about the top half of each rep, since the bar is initially moved by the hips. The push press is a great exercise, but you still need to bench because it is a pushing movement in the horizontal plane, and you train your pushing strength thoughout the entire rep.
As far as jerks go, if performed correctly, there is very little pressing involved. Again, the movement of the bar is a result of the extension of the hips, knees, and ankles. While it takes some overhead strength to catch the bar, there isn’t a ton of upper body involvement. The jerk, by definition, is not a jerk if there is any pressing at the end of the movement.
As a side note…a big pet peeve of mine is that a lot of people use the terms ‘push press’ and ‘push jerk’ interchangeably. It is important to point out that these are two very different exercises. For those who don’t know the difference…
A push PRESS is basically a standing military press where you ‘cheat’ with your lower body (about a quarter squat or less)to initiate the movement and get the bar moving upward, but after the initial ‘cheat,’ the hips remain locked out and the movement is finished with nothing more than the upper body pressing the bar to lockout.
A push JERK begins the same way with a very explosive quarter squat (I usually describe it to athletes as a 6 inch squat), but after the bar begins to travel upward and you have fully extended your hips and knees, you drop down underneath the bar and catch it at full lockout. You must catch the bar at a full lockout, or the lift is not a true jerk (this is the same as having to catch the snatch at a full lockout). A lot of people will also split their legs for the catch, which when learned correctly, can allow most people to handle more weight. Splitting the legs can also make the movement easier for athletes who have limited shoulder flexibility.
[quote]SKman wrote:
hfrogs00 wrote:
Dookie,
I believe there is an all or none mentality to the OLs because you cannot strain on a max clean or snatch like you can a max bench, DL or squat.
As far as the concentric being slower with the bands, Louie has done studies showing the concentric is faster with the bands due to the overloaded eccentric. I will try to find the link later.
It would be great if you could post that link, it sounds pretty interesting. I am surprised to read about bar speed being faster, I thought part of the point of using bands is that they act to decelerate the bar towards the end of the movement.[/quote]
Sorry guys, I am still looking for the link. The study was not in the articles I thought it was. I will have to check the past PLUSA issues when I get home on Sunday. I do believe though, that it is in Supertraining because the study was done by Siff and Simmons on Westside lifters.
SKman,
The purpose of the bands is to keep constant tension throughout the lift, therefore not allowing the bar to decelerate which happens with straight weight. This way you have to accelerate the bar throughout the range of motion. If you were to press slowly you would not make it to lockout.
Mr. Smith,
Thank you. I guess my jerk needs a whole lot of work.
Here is the article by Simmons. You need Acrobat Reader. Click on Most Recent and it is pages 6-11. This article can also be found in the October 2004 issue of PLUSA.
Hopefully it works.
Thanks!