It’s definitely up there as a “rite of passage” style workout. That, Super Squats and Deep Water all hold a place there.
Then doesn’t the fact you completed it so quickly imply your weights were lighter than intended?
Not calling you out, just trying to understand your (obviously successful) training approach.
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Not interpretted that way at all.
I get it done quicker than most because my conditioning is solid enough that I can run the entire program as a giant set/circuit, rather than doing all the squats, then all the presses, then all the chins, etc etc.
The 5x5 squats were still heavy as hell for me and the presses were dialed in at the exact right percentage, but in between it all I was getting in sets of dips, chins and pull aparts to save time.
Gedanken time, if you don’t mind:
–You did today’s workout with twice the amount of rest between circuits as you took today. Question: Would you have been able to move more weight on the main lifts?
–You did today’s workout with half the amount of rest between circuits. Question: Would you have been able to move the same weights on the main lifts?
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For sure. I will take longer rests on week 3, when the weights are heavier, for that very reason.
For the second question: same thing. I will use shorter rests next week when the weights are lighter, because I won’t need as long to recover.
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How can you do 90% x 5 reps? Clusters?
Keep in mind 5/3/1 uses a training max: not a 1rm.
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Hoow yeah my bad!
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My confusion probably stems from being unfamiliar with the nuances associated with training via percentages…
In terms of the brevity with which BtM1 can be completed: Is there a point at which you would conclude the weights being used were too light? Per you, most folk take 90-120 minutes to complete it. You took under 60–very much an outlier based on the metrics you provided. How to account for your outlier-ness? You attribute it to your superb conditioning, and I am not disputing that attribution. But you will agree that another explanation is that the weights you employed did not provide the amount of resistance intended by the designer of the program (Wendler, I assume).
Consider: By my count, BtM1 requires a minimum of 360 reps. (This assumes 100 dips and 10 reps on the AMRAP set.) Assume further that it takes, on average, 1 sec to complete any given rep. It follows that the absolute minimum time BtM1 could take is 6 minutes. (Obviously it can’t really be done that fast; I’m just setting a floor.)
Question: What is the shortest completion time for BtM1 you would be willing to accept as legit, ie, as not being facilitated by weights that were lighter than intended? (Not asking about your workout times necessarily; feel free to answer in the context of a hypothetical BtM adherent.)
BTW, and if anyone’s wondering, there is a point to all this that I hope to get to (eventually).
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Not based off brevity, no. The training max is established before the program begins, and mine was easy to determine as I was coming off another 5/3/1 program and came VERY close to some real maxes on it. I walked the training maxes back 1 cycle and was ready for Building the Monolith.
The amount of exertion I employed today on the topset of squats was exactly where it should be for the 3s week. I hit 10 reps on my + set on presses, which is ideal for me. All the markers I’d rely on have been met. All brevity indicates to me is how in shape I’m in. A more in shape trainee recovers faster from a 90% effort than a less in shape trainee.
As per the question, without being able to actually experience the training session, I could not give a number. I can’t speak at all for other trainees: only myself. FOR myself, I’d have to base it off exertion employed.
@EyeDentist It’s worth noting that I got the nod from Jim Wendler himself when I used this approach in the past
I hadn’t realized that perceived exertion was so important in your self-assessment. In that regard: If the exertion required by your first 90x5 squat-set had been greater than what you felt was appropriate for the first of five 90x5 sets, how would you have adjusted? Would you have lowered the weight but kept the pace for the subsequent sets, or the opposite–keep the weight, but rest longer between sets?
I’d have to experience that scenario to be able to say. Depending on the situation, I’ve had times where the right call was the lower the training max, times where the right call was to increase rest times, times where it was to stop using giant sets, and times where I needed to just shut down the entire workout and do it later.
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I’m curious
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Here’s what I’m getting at.
In his recent writings, Coach Darden rejects the long-held central dogma of Nautilus/Jones training, ie, that the key to growth is taking a muscle to failure. Instead, he now maintains that ‘metabolic conditioning’–doing a few movements hard but not to failure, with no rest between sets–is the best way to build muscle.* And while the symmetry is not perfect (eg, you do more volume than he recommends), the overlap between what he espouses and what you do is striking, and I am intrigued by how the success you’ve had seems to validate his current position.
I have always been of the belief that metabolic conditioning–while likely of cardiovascular benefit–was a poor stimulator of hypertrophy (if it was a stimulator at all). And in this regard, I can dismiss your results as a one-off. Likewise, I can dismiss Darden’s claims as just evidencing a guy trying to carve out space for himself in a crowded field of BBing advisers. But it seems intellectually imprudent to dismiss both of you, ie, to dismiss two independent lines of evidence, both pointing to the same unexpected (for me) conclusion.
tl;dr You and Darden are providing independent, converging evidence that metabolic conditioning is a highly effective training style for getting yoked, and this fact is giving me pause.
Thoughts, any/everyone?
*See, eg, this article:
The 10 Hidden Principles of Muscle Growth | T Nation (t-nation.com)
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It’s worth noting that I’m not a 5/3/1 “ride or die” type, and that this is simply how I approach this particular training. Deep Water had me doing things differently, as did conjugate, as did training on my own.
Sub-max training works: no question. Jim has been very successful with it. Maximal training ALSO works. I bring up exertion, because that’s honestly been the key for me: as long as I work hard and stay consistent, I’ll grow.
5/3/1 gives me percentages I MUST hit: cool. I’ll make the program as challenging as possible while still making sure I hit those movements.
But also, a big part of it is I’m a full time employee and a family man. I’m not going to spend any longer lifting weights than I have to.
EDIT: In fact, in point of interest, the next training phase I’ll undergo is going to have me keeping the weight static for 6 weeks and ONLY manipulating rest times. There’s SO many different ways to approach this.
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What you describe
is exactly what I have been favoring for the last several years. Although I was not doing so because I had any thoughts that it was the best way to build muscle, I found it gave me far superior results to anything I had done in the past. An example for me would be probably somewhat similar to what T3hPwnisher does but with less weight:
A set of 10 back squats at say 70% TM not close to failure but done explosively, followed immediately by 10 weighted ring pull ups (hard but not to failure). Rest and repeat, alternating ring pull ups with dips. So, the entire workout would be squats, weighted pull ups, weighted dips. I also have done BtM and do the same thing as T3hPwnisher, but with supersets rather than giant sets and working at a good clip that took about as long as his workout.
I have found for me this results in:
- Better muscle composition in terms of an athletic build
- No injuries at all.
- No burn out or CNS fatigue or whatever you want to call it.
Wendler’s Krypteia kind of started that for me- a submaximal compound barbell move supersetted with a tough but doable bodyweight or DB move. I now apply it to all 531 programs, including BtM.
Interesting that you pointed this out, as I am not often a lurker on Darden’s forum.
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That they are not the same.
What @T3hPwnisher is doing is intelligently setting up exercises that do not interfere with each other too much, allowing him to push hard while keeping rest periods down. Like antagonist supersets.
Darden is :
Sprinting in between exercises, holds, 15 sec negatives. Come on.
I have yet to see anyone with an impressive or even decent physique in that forum and the claims and so called results are anything but, honest. Just some delusional old guys claiming low BF.
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This is exactly what I was thinking while reading your workout example.
Are you doing full body sessions or just doing Jim’s push/pull assistance?
For Krypteia, the assistance is spelled out. But I have since followed that with other 531 templates. One main lift, and two assistance. So for Bench press, I’d superset it with pull ups or inverted rows and heavy DB squats. Everything is “hard”, but nothing is to failure. No grinding, good bar speed. You need to be in shape to do, say a set of 10 back squats, then strap on 25 lbs and crank out 10 pull ups. But, again, the weight is challenging but sub-maximal.
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