[quote]GusBus07 wrote:
CT, so for those of us who are not able to sip on protein throughout our workouts, a post WO protein shake would then be appropriate?[/quote]
Correct.
Hello Christian,
ok, here is the plan I’m going to follow if you are ok with it. I’m on a 5 day split + 1 light day for my back
I’m going to use 3 times a week this:
-30: 2 scoop Surge Workout Fuel + 400 mg caffeine
-10: 2 scoop Surge Recovery
During: 1 scoop Surge Recovery
+60: 2 scoop of Whey
and the 3 others day:
-30 1 scoop of whey + 400mg caffeine
Right after: 2 scoop of whey in 12 once milk + one bagel with jelly
I’m planning this because I can’t afford it 6 days a week. Will it be effective even if it’s a cheapened version of your protocol? I’m thinking about maybe adding FINiBAR but I’m not sure if it worth it, since I’ll only do it 3 time a week instead of 6.
One last question, is it better to follow an altered protocol like the one I have just described all year long, or would it be better to save my cash and have your full protocol, lets say, 1 month on, 2 months off (by off I mean standard nutrition).
Maybe I’m over-thinking all of this, but I’m training hard and I think details can make the difference in the long run and I feel what I’m doing right not is not giving me optimal results.
Thanks for your time,
Alex
christian,
In a other thread you said that you train twice a day AM and PM in a Strength AM hypertrophy PM split, if thats the case how often a week do you do this new Para-worout protocol?
Thanks
Kerley
[quote]Kerley wrote:
christian,
In a other thread you said that you train twice a day AM and PM in a Strength AM hypertrophy PM split, if thats the case how often a week do you do this new Para-worout protocol?
Thanks
Kerley[/quote]
No no no … I said that sometimes when I train twice a day I like to do it this way. Well, that’s just one way of doing things, and I do not always train twice a day.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Dynamo Hum wrote:
Exactly. CT recommends spreading out the during workout shake so that you finish it at the same time your w/o ends. That way, you can wait a while before next phase of nutrition and possibly get another pulse out of it.
Exactly. If you consume a good amount of protein right before the workout and continue to ingest protein during the whole session, the immediate post-workout period is NOT an anabolic opportunity. Why?
Because what stimulates anabolism is going from a state of amino acid deprivation to a state o hyperaminoacidemia as fast as possible.
Right after the workout, if you have been using the protocol, you are NOT in a state of deprivation so a burst in protein intake will not be optimal at that point.[/quote]
What you have written on this, Christian, as well as what Tim has discussed with me over time has wound up being very helpful indeed to my current situation.
Now, I was somewhat pioneering the big pre-and-during-workout nutrition thing, at one point using as much as 3 scoops Surge Recovery plus an additional 45 grams or so of glucose plus some powdered BCAA’s preworkout, the same at the 1 hour point, and the same yet again at the end of a 2 hour workout.
Then an hour after that hitting the CiCi’s pizza buffet.
And maintaining a fear that if not supporting the rest of the day with quite a bit of thorough clean nutrition, the potential gains from my workout would be wasted. Of course that would be true for any “off” days of the week as well: gotta grow while resting as well, don’cha know.
Now at age 46 I could get away with that. I worked, and fat gain was slow enough and speed of losing fat later was good enough that this was fine.
But somehow at 47 I was putting fat on too fast even on cutting this back substantially, and fat wasn’t coming off as fast when dieting. What to do.
Very simply, using what you and Tim have said seems to have solved this very well.
On awakening: 5 g of leucine plus 4 of the same little scoops of casein hydrolysate (unfortunately, not the material Biotest uses, as I haven’t been able to get my hands on that.)
20 minutes later: 2 scoops Grow! Whey plus 1/2 scoop Surge Recovery plus 1 scoop Surge Workout Fuel.
1 hour after that, which is 1 hour before the workout: 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel
Start of workout: 2 scoops Anaconda plus 1 scoop Surge Recovery
(Note: Anaconda does everything, but for providing carbs, that Workout Fuel does, so it is not necessary to combine them at the same exact time. Thus, for each amount of Anaconda one uses, one needs that much less SWF, so that at least does help on cost.)
Each half hour into it: 1 scoop Surge Recovery
End of workout: 2 scoops Grow! Whey plus 1 Finibar – the reason for the Finibar is I will be switching to low carb the rest of the day, and the Finibar provides a smooth transition with no crash.
While that’s a fair bit of calories, it’s at the most optimal point of the day and I am now able to live in non-fear the rest of the day in keeping calories quite low. I wind up getting an additional pulse in the late evening in the same manner as the morning one (except without any Surge Recovery), starting it 3 hours after the most recent relatively small meal.
It definitely keeps the workouts supported while keeping daily calories low enough for slow fat loss, and much better supported than any previous method I’ve tried to have any fat loss while working out that hard and much.
It does wind up being a great and useful concept that if the pre and during workout nutrition is just right, the rest of the day really need not have to have all that much food to support results, given a reasonable minimum of course. The results are already well supported, and much more efficiently than with post-workout and later-in-the-day calories.
I had been coming to truly hate working really hard and seemingly having a choice of either losing fat pretty well but tossing hopes of strength gain, let alone visible muscular improvement, out the window; or retain some diminished hope of the latter but have fat loss severely compromised. It’s great having a third option.
[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
ALX wrote:
Anyone know if Canadian got custom charges when ordering form Biotest?
You will be charged brokerage fees and provincial & federal tax on purchases from the US.
There are some resellers in Canada, but the price tends to be the same or more than what you would pay importing directly from Biotest.
[/quote]
FX rate makes a difference as well. You also need to be careful what you order into certain provinces in Canada. For example Alberta won’t let HOT-ROX in.
So if one was rationing out their Surge Recovery to 3 main days of heavy lifting a week, would it now be better advised to take my 3 scoops before the workout, after the workout, or 1.5 before and 1.5 after ?
Just got a raise, perhaps soon ill be able to do both.
[quote]WS4JB wrote:
So if one was rationing out their Surge Recovery to 3 main days of heavy lifting a week, would it now be better advised to take my 3 scoops before the workout, after the workout, or 1.5 before and 1.5 after ?
Just got a raise, perhaps soon ill be able to do both.[/quote]
RIGHT NOW, since Anconda is not yet available I’d take SURGE RECOVERY half the dose 15 minutes prior to the workout and the other half drank during the workout. One hour later you’d have a whey shake.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
What you have written on this, Christian, as well as what Tim has discussed with me over time has wound up being very helpful indeed to my current situation.
Now, I was somewhat pioneering the big pre-and-during-workout nutrition thing, at one point using as much as 3 scoops Surge Recovery plus an additional 45 grams or so of glucose plus some powdered BCAA’s preworkout, the same at the 1 hour point, and the same yet again at the end of a 2 hour workout.
[/quote]
Yeah, Tim told me that he thought that you were bootlegging the stuff because you asked for so much of it!!!
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
WS4JB wrote:
So if one was rationing out their Surge Recovery to 3 main days of heavy lifting a week, would it now be better advised to take my 3 scoops before the workout, after the workout, or 1.5 before and 1.5 after ?
Just got a raise, perhaps soon ill be able to do both.
RIGHT NOW, since Anconda is not yet available I’d take SURGE RECOVERY half the dose 15 minutes prior to the workout and the other half drank during the workout. One hour later you’d have a whey shake.[/quote]
The best part of this is that I love the stuff so much, that I am looking forward to getting to drink it on two different occasions. I honestly think bringing Surge back into my plan has helped with the fact that I no longer crave sweets at random times, apparently its all the sugar I need.
Thanks for your time.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
WS4JB wrote:
So if one was rationing out their Surge Recovery to 3 main days of heavy lifting a week, would it now be better advised to take my 3 scoops before the workout, after the workout, or 1.5 before and 1.5 after ?
Just got a raise, perhaps soon ill be able to do both.
RIGHT NOW, since Anconda is not yet available I’d take SURGE RECOVERY half the dose 15 minutes prior to the workout and the other half drank during the workout. One hour later you’d have a whey shake.[/quote]
So I got the supps I need to mimic this protocol (sans the Anaconda, of course), my question to you guys if I may - what do you think is the most optimal as a post-workout meal? I train late at night, get home around 11-11:30 P.M., have a last meal and go to bed.
I’ve been drinking a shake with whey and a banana before I hit the gym, then following the “double Surge” protocol for during- and post-workout, lastly I would eat about a cup or two of cottage cheese with some raisins and chopped pineapples before I hit the sack. Is that a good option when following this new approach? Or do you have a better recommendation?
Thanks a lot!
[quote]m1sf1t wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
WS4JB wrote:
So if one was rationing out their Surge Recovery to 3 main days of heavy lifting a week, would it now be better advised to take my 3 scoops before the workout, after the workout, or 1.5 before and 1.5 after ?
Just got a raise, perhaps soon ill be able to do both.
RIGHT NOW, since Anconda is not yet available I’d take SURGE RECOVERY half the dose 15 minutes prior to the workout and the other half drank during the workout. One hour later you’d have a whey shake.
So I got the supps I need to mimic this protocol (sans the Anaconda, of course), my question to you guys if I may - what do you think is the most optimal as a post-workout meal? I train late at night, get home around 11-11:30 P.M., have a last meal and go to bed.
I’ve been drinking a shake with whey and a banana before I hit the gym, then following the “double Surge” protocol for during- and post-workout, lastly I would eat about a cup or two of cottage cheese with some raisins and chopped pineapples before I hit the sack. Is that a good option when following this new approach? Or do you have a better recommendation?
Thanks a lot!
[/quote]
I’m now not convinced that a high carb shake is right as a post-workout meal, because catecholamines partially blunt insulin release. Since catecholamines will be high post-workout I see it as somewhat ineffective to load up on carbs post workout. This is also why I do think that pre (and during) workout nutrition is way more important than post-workout nutrition.
In fact, with a proper pre/during protocol there is no need for an actual post-workout shake until 45-60 minutes after the session. At that time you could have your Surge Recovery and a solid meal 30 minutes afterwards.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
m1sf1t wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
WS4JB wrote:
So if one was rationing out their Surge Recovery to 3 main days of heavy lifting a week, would it now be better advised to take my 3 scoops before the workout, after the workout, or 1.5 before and 1.5 after ?
Just got a raise, perhaps soon ill be able to do both.
RIGHT NOW, since Anconda is not yet available I’d take SURGE RECOVERY half the dose 15 minutes prior to the workout and the other half drank during the workout. One hour later you’d have a whey shake.
So I got the supps I need to mimic this protocol (sans the Anaconda, of course), my question to you guys if I may - what do you think is the most optimal as a post-workout meal? I train late at night, get home around 11-11:30 P.M., have a last meal and go to bed.
I’ve been drinking a shake with whey and a banana before I hit the gym, then following the “double Surge” protocol for during- and post-workout, lastly I would eat about a cup or two of cottage cheese with some raisins and chopped pineapples before I hit the sack. Is that a good option when following this new approach? Or do you have a better recommendation?
Thanks a lot!
I’m now not convinced that a high carb shake is right as a post-workout meal, because catecholamines partially blunt insulin release. Since catecholamines will be high post-workout I see it as somewhat ineffective to load up on carbs post workout. This is also why I do think that pre (and during) workout nutrition is way more important than post-workout nutrition.[/quote]
Very interesting, it really turns the “conventional wisdom” that we’ve been hearing about post-workout nutrition upside down. I’m looking forward to try it out and see what changes I experience…
So having said that, what would you recommend for a person like me that trains so late at night? I usually eat cottage cheese with something else since it’s the last meal I have before I go to bed, but if I have a shake 45-60 after the gym, THEN wait another 30 minutes for a meal, I’ll probably be getting to bed at around 2 in the morning! I can barely squeeze 7 hrs of sleep since I have to get up early for work, the last thing I want to do is cut myself even shorter on the sleep!
Thanks coach for the knowledge and the responses.
[quote]m1sf1t wrote:
So having said that, what would you recommend for a person like me that trains so late at night? I usually eat cottage cheese with something else since it’s the last meal I have before I go to bed, but if I have a shake 45-60 after the gym, THEN wait another 30 minutes for a meal, I’ll probably be getting to bed at around 2 in the morning! I can barely squeeze 7 hrs of sleep since I have to get up early for work, the last thing I want to do is cut myself even shorter on the sleep!
Thanks coach for the knowledge and the responses.
[/quote]
That is an interesting situation…
On one side the shake will boost your anabolism and help you build more muscle mass BUT shortly afterwards you will run on an empty blood stream nutrients-wise and the night might become catabolic.
On the other the solid, slow digested meal will keep you anti-catabolic at night but you will miss out on a good anabolic opportunity.
I would suggest having the shake 30 minutes post-workout and the meal 30 minutes afterwards. While it will not exactly give you the best of both worlds, it is a good compromise.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
m1sf1t wrote:
So having said that, what would you recommend for a person like me that trains so late at night? I usually eat cottage cheese with something else since it’s the last meal I have before I go to bed, but if I have a shake 45-60 after the gym, THEN wait another 30 minutes for a meal, I’ll probably be getting to bed at around 2 in the morning! I can barely squeeze 7 hrs of sleep since I have to get up early for work, the last thing I want to do is cut myself even shorter on the sleep!
Thanks coach for the knowledge and the responses.
That is an interesting situation…
On one side the shake will boost your anabolism and help you build more muscle mass BUT shortly afterwards you will run on an empty blood stream nutrients-wise and the night might become catabolic.
On the other the solid, slow digested meal will keep you anti-catabolic at night but you will miss out on a good anabolic opportunity.
I would suggest having the shake 30 minutes post-workout and the meal 30 minutes afterwards. While it will not exactly give you the best of both worlds, it is a good compromise.
[/quote]
Cool, I’ll try something like that, see what happens.
Thanks again!
[quote]Pibbz wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
Needmassquick wrote:
Not to be a nay-sayer but this all seems odd to me. I’m SURE this will result in some increased gains just from such high carbs and calories PWO but is it really that important? I mean it’s being touted as this revolutionary thing that will work wonders but look how big people in the past have gotten just eating big. Of course PWO nutrition is important but plenty of really big guys got there by just eating the right foods and at most having some whey and simple sugars PWO without making things so complicated (or expensive )
I have to agree with you. This just seems a bit too anal 15- 20- 30-. I have a bad enough time now being anal with timing my meals, I don’t want to get hung up this bad 
I would like to hear people’s experiences with it, so they can be the guinea pig
x2. I’ve been under the impression that natural food and good protein was all you needed. With all the nay-saying about how most supplements are just overpriced and unnecessary (talking about the generic pre-workout N.O. products/creatines/and such) it’s hard to consider a diet consisting mostly of supplements as being the “best.”[/quote]
A couple things here:
First, the daily diet Christian is advocating is ANYTHING but “a diet consisting mostly of supplements”. It’s only peri-workout nutrition.
Second, CT said elsewhere if something had to be cut he’d rather cut supplements at other times of the day first than cut the peri-workout supplement plan down, if given a choice.
Third, no one as far as I know, here at least, has EVER said creatine was overpriced or worthless. monohydrate is dirt cheap and really useful. Additionally, I’ve never really heard the opinion that whey protein and carbs were overpriced or unnecessary. In fact, I’ve heard the exact opposite ALL the time—even if you can’t afford the good shit, keep SOMETHING in you during and before/after training. I’ve also always heard that the “workout window” for nutrition is the most valuable time to put food and/or supplements after breakfast time.
The beef with the N.O. products is that they suck, not that they are unnecessary per se. They just don’t work like they are advertised to do, no matter what the placebo effect says.
Fourth, yes people have been getting bigger for decades using just natural food and protein, but if you can significantly accelerate the process, why wouldn’t you?? It makes the time to “swoleness” less long.
Fifth, as far as the importance of specific timing goes – jehova’s comment I believe – I believe that 200%. I understand your point my friend, but I can attest that it makes all the difference in my training energy levels. ESPECIALLY when messing with insulin levels. I found that I had to take the Surge Recovery about 5 minutes before stepping into the gym, or I would LOSE energy in my training. Any time I screwed up the timing the insulin spike caused by just SR made me lethargic, low energy, and sleepy. Conversely, when I got it right for my body I was an absolute machine. Some long time lurkers may remember I was one of the lucky members chosen for the “Double Surge” experiment. The timing issue was very, and I mean very, apparent when I was using 2x the dose. I even ended up reporting on it I believe.
Think about it–how do you feel after a high carb cheat meal?? High energy, then zonked out. For me it’s about 1 hour of awesomeness, then sleepy time. That’s due to the insulin spike and the subsequent crash. Not quite the same as a high quality intentional spike, but the same net effects occur if you mis-time the spike by taking it too early.
Considering how unbelievably great I felt using ONLY double dosed SR while training, I’m almost giddy to try this regimen. I just need to get the money first, as I can barely afford a jug of whey powder at this time. When my job search ends you can bet your ass I’ll be trying this.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Because what stimulates anabolism is going from a state of amino acid deprivation to a state o hyperaminoacidemia as fast as possible.[/quote]
Two questions;
-
Would using this protocol upon waking even further improve gains. Using the above theory surely waking up from sleep is the point at which you are most deprived of amino acids?
-
Is the timing in reference to when you begin your working sets or warm up sets? i.e take the Surge 10 minutes before your first work set?
many thanks
[quote]Perficio wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Because what stimulates anabolism is going from a state of amino acid deprivation to a state o hyperaminoacidemia as fast as possible.
Two questions;
-
Would using this protocol upon waking even further improve gains. Using the above theory surely waking up from sleep is the point at which you are most deprived of amino acids?
-
Is the timing in reference to when you begin your working sets or warm up sets? i.e take the Surge 10 minutes before your first work set?
many thanks
[/quote]
-
Most definitely! The morning is one of the best time to pulse, no doubt!
-
When the workout starts, when you start lifting weights, even if they are light.
Is it normal to feel like you have a ton of fluid sloshing around in your stomach from the para-workout design? I ended with some preacher cable curls and the pressure from the pad nearly made me yak. Any way to combat that?