Nate Green's Peri-Workout Nutrition Experience

Training
102

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
CrewPierce wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
I understand your concern. But to me 200$ a month isn’t excessive if it gets the job done. And the protocol is basically all the supplements that I currently use.

Gotcha, that’s fair enough. I was trying to fit this in with your Amino Acid Pulsing method and there was no way I could swing buying enough SURGE Recovery for both of these methods.

You know, getting married has been a drag on my budget but I’m sure you feel my pain on that :slight_smile:

Oh yeah, I feel your pain man!!!

‘Technically’ any fast protein can be used for the daily pulses. Whey has been shown to be fast enough to lead to hyperaminoacidemia.

So a poor (or married) man version could be:

UPON WAKING UP
PULSE no.1 Grow! Whey 1 scoop

20 minutes later
Breakfast

MID-AM
PULSE no.2 Grow! Whey 1 scoop

Lunch
Relatiely easily absorbed protein source (the leaner, the faster)
The rest of the meal depends on your goal

PARA-WORKOUT
40 min before = 1 FINiBAR
30 min before = 2 scoops WORKOUT FUEL
10 min before = 1 scoop RECOVERY
During = 1 scoop RECOVERY

60 minutes after workout
Either Grow! Whey (if fat loss is your main goal) or RECOVERY (if mass/strength is your main goal)

30 minutes later
SUPPER
Slowly absorbed protein source like red meat
low or no carbs
Veggies
Fish oil
Nuts or almonds

BEFORE BED
Slowly absorbed protein like cottage cheese blended in with yogurt or low-carbs Metabolic Drive[/quote]

Thibs how does this plan change if you add steady state training at the end of your workout? For example, you workout for an hour and then decide you want to do some steady state cardio for 20-30 mins…how would you re-arrange the para-workout protocol around it?

103

Was reading random articles this is from another author:

He has around the same thing too just 10g more BCAA’s

104

CT,
I was looking at the original protocal plus your sugested post workout additions and I added up the macronutrients:

30 minutes prior to 60 minute post

Mass Gain: Total = 4.5-6g extra leucine (this is an estimate since I don’t know exactly how much is in the Workout Fuel), 6g fat, 64g low-mid GI (Workout Fuel) carb, 108 high GI (Surge Recovery) carb, total carb = 172g, 59g protein

Fat Loss: 4.5-6g extra leucine, 6g fat, 64g low-mid GI carb, 66 high GI carb, total carb = 130g, 56g protein

I was excited to see that my protocol has similar macronutrient totals, however, I do need to make a shift since most of my nutrients are coming during and after. I hope to see some additional progress by taking in more nutrients prior to my workout to create the insulin spike.

Question: You suggested a serving of Surge Recovery 60 minutes post workout for those interested in lean mass gains, that has 46g of high GI carbs.

Do you feel they are absolutely necessary after all of the previous carbs ingested? Or could it be switched with a lower GI carb like oats and mixed with a scoop of whey?

105

I apologise if this has already been covered and I missed it.

I train in the morning before work, generally up at 5am, omelette for breakfast, drive 45 minutes to the gym, train, then go to work.

What I’m curious about is how to work the timing aspect into this. Would you advise a Biotest sponsered breakfast instead of the omelette? Also, since I’m driving to the gym I can’t easily drink a shake / down pills / eat while doing so, taking something 30 / 20 or 10 minutes before I train is a little problematic (well, 10 minutes before I can manage between the walk from the car and getting changed).

Sorry, I know this is a bit of a specific question, but hopefully any response will help others as well.

106

[quote]Roual wrote:
I apologise if this has already been covered and I missed it.

I train in the morning before work, generally up at 5am, omelette for breakfast, drive 45 minutes to the gym, train, then go to work.

What I’m curious about is how to work the timing aspect into this. Would you advise a Biotest sponsered breakfast instead of the omelette? Also, since I’m driving to the gym I can’t easily drink a shake / down pills / eat while doing so, taking something 30 / 20 or 10 minutes before I train is a little problematic (well, 10 minutes before I can manage between the walk from the car and getting changed).

Sorry, I know this is a bit of a specific question, but hopefully any response will help others as well.[/quote]

I really wish someone would answer this. There is a good percentage who have to work out in the morning.

107

First, I would like to assert that I love the research Biotest does. Second, Dr. Pasquale has an article dealing with carbs post-workout. In effect, he says that carbs are not necessary to increase protein synthesis & in fact, are detrimental to the insulin sensitivity brought about by a lifting session. He goes on to say that some peri-workout amino acids & a hefty protein + fat meal post-workout are more anabolic. Anybody have some thoughts? I have to know what the hell to do.

2
Beelen M, Koopman R, Stellingwerff T, Kuipers H, Saris WH, van Loon LJ. Co-ingestion
Of Carbohydrate With Protein Does Not Stimulate Post-exercise Muscle Protein
Synthesis Rates: 874: June 1 1:45 PM - 2:00 PM. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2007 May;39(5
Suppl):S83.

108

[quote]bABoon wrote:
First, I would like to assert that I love the research Biotest does. Second, Dr. Pasquale has an article dealing with carbs post-workout. In effect, he says that carbs are not necessary to increase protein synthesis & in fact, are detrimental to the insulin sensitivity brought about by a lifting session. He goes on to say that some peri-workout amino acids & a hefty protein + fat meal post-workout are more anabolic. Anybody have some thoughts? I have to know what the hell to do.

2
Beelen M, Koopman R, Stellingwerff T, Kuipers H, Saris WH, van Loon LJ. Co-ingestion
Of Carbohydrate With Protein Does Not Stimulate Post-exercise Muscle Protein
Synthesis Rates: 874: June 1 1:45 PM - 2:00 PM. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2007 May;39(5
Suppl):S83.
[/quote]

That sums up my point EXACTLY. Post-workout carbs do not increase anabolism, possibly due to a decreased insulin response (because of elevated catecholamines).

Carbs and protein pre-workout
Aminos or casein hydrolysate during workout
Regular meal 60 minutes after session

109

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
bABoon wrote:
First, I would like to assert that I love the research Biotest does. Second, Dr. Pasquale has an article dealing with carbs post-workout. In effect, he says that carbs are not necessary to increase protein synthesis & in fact, are detrimental to the insulin sensitivity brought about by a lifting session. He goes on to say that some peri-workout amino acids & a hefty protein + fat meal post-workout are more anabolic. Anybody have some thoughts? I have to know what the hell to do.

2
Beelen M, Koopman R, Stellingwerff T, Kuipers H, Saris WH, van Loon LJ. Co-ingestion
Of Carbohydrate With Protein Does Not Stimulate Post-exercise Muscle Protein
Synthesis Rates: 874: June 1 1:45 PM - 2:00 PM. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2007 May;39(5
Suppl):S83.

That sums up my point EXACTLY. Post-workout carbs do not increase anabolism, possibly due to a decreased insulin response (because of elevated catecholamines).

Carbs and protein pre-workout
Aminos or casein hydrolysate during workout
Regular meal 60 minutes after session[/quote]

So does that mean 2 scoops of Surge Recovery post workout is actually detrimental. It’s better to maybe take half of that pre-workout and the rest during workout, then wait 60 min and have a meal?

110

CT,

I wake up at 7am and train at 830am. I eat 1 cup of egg whites and some fruit (150-200g) when I wake up and about 20 minutes before training I take 2 scoops of Surge Recovery. Is this optimal for the time I have? Thanks!

111

Is there any reason why the muscle gained from this would be difficult to maintain?

I have no problem with the cost especially if we could eliminate other supplements. The tediousness of it though I fear could make lifting feel like a chore rather than the joy it is now. It also would be difficult to do for me and others who have to travel a lot for work. I don’t want to pack 5 different supplements and often don’t know when I’m going to train each day or how long I’ll be away from home.

I think it’d be worth being diligent and dialing it in for a cycle or 2 though to get the type of gains being mentioned, but I don’t think I could continue to do it for long periods of time. I’d rather hit it hard for a month or 2 and then transition to a more traditional approach where I just have a pre-workout meal and post-workout shake. No good?

112

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
bABoon wrote:
First, I would like to assert that I love the research Biotest does. Second, Dr. Pasquale has an article dealing with carbs post-workout. In effect, he says that carbs are not necessary to increase protein synthesis & in fact, are detrimental to the insulin sensitivity brought about by a lifting session. He goes on to say that some peri-workout amino acids & a hefty protein + fat meal post-workout are more anabolic. Anybody have some thoughts? I have to know what the hell to do.

2
Beelen M, Koopman R, Stellingwerff T, Kuipers H, Saris WH, van Loon LJ. Co-ingestion
Of Carbohydrate With Protein Does Not Stimulate Post-exercise Muscle Protein
Synthesis Rates: 874: June 1 1:45 PM - 2:00 PM. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2007 May;39(5
Suppl):S83.

That sums up my point EXACTLY. Post-workout carbs do not increase anabolism, possibly due to a decreased insulin response (because of elevated catecholamines).

Carbs and protein pre-workout
Aminos or casein hydrolysate during workout
Regular meal 60 minutes after session[/quote]

This is something I read by DiPasquale too.

I’m confused though, I thought you were saying that carbs are best “para-workout”, not just pre workout? So Anaconda doesn’t have carbs in it?

Would it be bad to have the carbs during the workout? What I started doing this week was 60g carbs 40min. before the workout and having my usual post-workout shake (25p/35c) during it. Should I instead move that shake (or just the carbs) to having the whole thing right before it and just have protein during the workout?

113

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
G87 wrote:
So, they finally managed to come up with a way to plug the Finibars into a protocol :).

Well, actually the cycling team had been using them for a long time.

Tim and I were talking to Dr. Lowery regarding ‘mega’ carb loading right before a workout to get a huge anabolic response. Dr. L even recommended going up as high s 500g!

Tim and I then tried to come up with the best mix of carbs, taken at the right time to avoid overloading the body or causing reactive hypoglycemia. The FINiBARS are great for that purpose because rice oligodextrin and palatinose are:

  • slowly absorbed yet do not cause stomach distress or bloating
  • when used in the proper ratio they act as an osmotic element, pulling water into the muscles

So the bars are used to initiate the carb loading protocol gradually without causing discomfort, then we switch to WORKOUT FUEL which also contains the same two carbs, but also some D-glucose which will create more of an insulin release.

Finally we switch to SURGE RECOVERY which is fast-absorbed and lead to an immense insulin spike.

It’s a gradual process where each step builds up to the next.
[/quote]

This sounds like a really cool concept.

My concern however is that every person, their physiology and their digestive systems are different. Using this order and reccomended timing is great if everyones digestive system is absorbing each step at the right time.

My concern is, what if you are burping up Surge Workout Fuel when you are taking Surge Recovery? Isn’t that bad?

Am I wrong? Please elaborate on this, thanks for your time.

114

KeepAwaySheeple,

In fact, the digestive physiology doesn’t differ very much from person to person.

There are some points which may cause diffrent results using the outlined protocol. Such as relative response to ingested carbs (i.e. insulin response), degree of insulin sensitivity, the so called prime response to various nutrients in the digestive tract (DT; i.e. speed and degree of enzymatic response).
These differences do exist, BUT if you do not suffer from a severe disease, chronic inflammation of the DT, etc., then it won’t matter.

For example: One can show that insulinic response to diffrent kinds of sugars differ in individuakt in term of its magnitude, but NOT in its time chain, i.e. peaks occur more or less after the same time in all humans (though they are not equally strong nor are the subsequent cascades identical (no. of receptors on target cells, etc.)).

So, in a nutshell, don’t worry. The protocol is pretty perfect the way it is, for what we know the time being.

115

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
bABoon wrote:
First, I would like to assert that I love the research Biotest does. Second, Dr. Pasquale has an article dealing with carbs post-workout. In effect, he says that carbs are not necessary to increase protein synthesis & in fact, are detrimental to the insulin sensitivity brought about by a lifting session. He goes on to say that some peri-workout amino acids & a hefty protein + fat meal post-workout are more anabolic. Anybody have some thoughts? I have to know what the hell to do.

2
Beelen M, Koopman R, Stellingwerff T, Kuipers H, Saris WH, van Loon LJ. Co-ingestion
Of Carbohydrate With Protein Does Not Stimulate Post-exercise Muscle Protein
Synthesis Rates: 874: June 1 1:45 PM - 2:00 PM. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2007 May;39(5
Suppl):S83.

That sums up my point EXACTLY. Post-workout carbs do not increase anabolism, possibly due to a decreased insulin response (because of elevated catecholamines).

Carbs and protein pre-workout
Aminos or casein hydrolysate during workout
Regular meal 60 minutes after session[/quote]

So it’s better to take in a whole food meal an hour after training opposed to another 2 scoops of Surge Recovery? I thought you were recommending Surge Recovery an hour after training if you are ingesting it during training. I’m doing Surge Workout Fuel 30 min before, Surge Recovery 10 minutes before, then 1 scoop Surge Recovery during.

116

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
That sums up my point EXACTLY. Post-workout carbs do not increase anabolism, possibly due to a decreased insulin response (because of elevated catecholamines).

Carbs and protein pre-workout
Aminos or casein hydrolysate during workout
Regular meal 60 minutes after session[/quote]

117

On the protocol CT is reccomending, has anyone ever experienced a blood sugar crash during the middle of their workout?

118

Holy crap!

Is this right? What about simple fundamentals of physiology… things like Insulin being the opposite of Glucagon, the glucose releasing hormone to fuel workouts?

I mean, lets take things back to nature and to an imaginary world without supplements… Does the body want Insulin so jacked before or during a workout or physical activity? Does it naturally do this?

I understand we’re all trying to do something “abnormal” by - and I say this loosely - trying to put on muscle to an otherwise unresponsive body which usually only wants to put on enough muscle to perform it’s required daily tasks, but do we do it at the expense of our receptors, our organs, our very health being bombarded with chemicals to induce a contradictory physiological state?

Am I missing something or is my physiology wrong?

I just can’t understand why you want such a high insulin response before and during working out if it is contrary to what nature normally does.

I apologize in advance if it sounds rude or undermining but I just don’t get it.

119

[quote]phuture wrote:
On the protocol CT is reccomending, has anyone ever experienced a blood sugar crash during the middle of their workout?[/quote]

I feel like absolute shit on that protocol. I have a bunch of posts at the end of the thread “Questions on Para-Workout Nutrition”.

I had the best results and felt incredible during workouts when I just took Surge Workout Fuel 30 min before training and Surge Recovery immediately after training.

I will be switching back to that protocol which is what the products were desinged for.

When Anaconda comes out, I’ll add that to my regimen too.

120

[quote]humble wrote:
Holy crap!

Is this right? What about simple fundamentals of physiology… things like Insulin being the opposite of Glucagon, the glucose releasing hormone to fuel workouts?

I mean, lets take things back to nature and to an imaginary world without supplements… Does the body want Insulin so jacked before or during a workout or physical activity? Does it naturally do this?

I understand we’re all trying to do something “abnormal” by - and I say this loosely - trying to put on muscle to an otherwise unresponsive body which usually only wants to put on enough muscle to perform it’s required daily tasks, but do we do it at the expense of our receptors, our organs, our very health being bombarded with chemicals to induce a contradictory physiological state?

Am I missing something or is my physiology wrong?

I just can’t understand why you want such a high insulin response before and during working out if it is contrary to what nature normally does.

I apologize in advance if it sounds rude or undermining but I just don’t get it.

[/quote]

This is probably why I feel like I’m going to pass out during my workouts while on that protocol. This spiking insulin right before workout business is bizzare. I’m willing to do uncomfortable things for big muscles, however, when I’m feeling unhealthy during training, how can this by a positive thing. While taking Workout Fuel alone, I feel raging energetic and phyched during workouts, when I take all this shit in the new protocol, I feel like a big lop of shit and it hinders my performance. I get shaky and my heart races.

121

Well it sounds to me like your body is just struggling to get back to ‘homeostasis’.

I just can’t grasp why we’d want to induce two opposing states.

There’s a degree of physiological saturation, muscle/neural/mental stimulation needed before and during a workout/training/physical activity, a kind of fueling the tanks or so to speak but once fueled, shouldn’t we be opting for this homeostatic balance so that all systems are in balance and ready to go rather than having a high glucose level, insulin going crazy which in turn sets off serotonin, melatonin and a whole range of counter-productive hormones/chemical reactions?