[quote]CC wrote:
If there’s no trace of DNA and PEDs, however (you obviously need both to prove anything; otherwise it’s just syringes that could have been used for anything), it’s all moot anyway and even that much more twisted that he keeps medical waste that long.
[/quote]
His syringes would never hold up in court. Only the gullible and the press would believe McNamee - mainly because they want Clemens to be guilty so badly they will believe anything.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
<<< I would rather have one body (Congress) with oversight than every state legislature meddling. >>>[/quote]
I would rather have ANYbody except congress with oversight over 90% of the crap they stick their crooked corrupt self interested noses in. They have a stellar record of positively fkg up just about every private sector matter they get there hands on. This is just another example. Does anybody actually believe all that righteous indignation over steroids is genuine concern for baseball or young people? Most of those pompous power mongers haven’t really believed in anything meaningful since 7th grade, on either side of the aisle.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
His syringes would never hold up in court.[/quote]
I know nothing about forensic evidence and/or credibility of said evidence, so I’ll take your word for it and assume you’re right.
Agreed. On Mike and Mike this morning, ESPN legal analyst Roger Cossack said something along the lines of “The sad truth is that a vast majority of drug convictions in this country come from the mouths of drug-dealers themselves who have flipped on those they deal with” (paraphrasing, obviously). They don’t even necessarily have to be telling the truth, as long as the gov’t. gets what they want.
I thought it was interesting when Cossack, who no longer practices, said “If they decide to go forth with the perjury charges I’d love to go back into practice.” He was basically saying the gov’t. has nothing and that he would love the chance to defend Clemens (if I was understanding him correctly).
[quote]CC wrote:
rainjack wrote:
His syringes would never hold up in court.
I know nothing about forensic evidence and/or credibility of said evidence, so I’ll take your word for it and assume you’re right.[/quote]
In forensics, to my knowledge given the course I had on it in the military, chain of custody is one of the most important factors. Where was the evidence found and who cared for it from there are the questions asked. Otherwise, you could argue that it had been tampered with. Bostonbarrister is a lawyer so he might know better on that end.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
CC wrote:
rainjack wrote:
His syringes would never hold up in court.
I know nothing about forensic evidence and/or credibility of said evidence, so I’ll take your word for it and assume you’re right.
In forensics, to my knowledge given the course I had on it in the military, chain of custody is one of the most important factors. Where was the evidence found and who cared for it from there are the questions asked. Otherwise, you could argue that it had been tampered with. Bostonbarrister is a lawyer so he might know better on that end.[/quote]
Clemens admitted to B-12 injections. If McNamee is keeping syringes in beer cans, then one of them more than likely has his DNA on it. Proving that the steroids, or GH, found in with the blood was actually injected and not planted would be nearly impossible. Couple that with McNamee’s lies, and his past, and any first year law student could get an acquittal with this case.
Like ProfX said - chain of custody is key. McNamee has had possession of the beer cans for 6 years? This bullshit should be on Judge Judy - not in front of Congress.
At least that’s the way I see it.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
CC wrote:
rainjack wrote:
His syringes would never hold up in court.
I know nothing about forensic evidence and/or credibility of said evidence, so I’ll take your word for it and assume you’re right.
In forensics, to my knowledge given the course I had on it in the military, chain of custody is one of the most important factors. Where was the evidence found and who cared for it from there are the questions asked. Otherwise, you could argue that it had been tampered with. Bostonbarrister is a lawyer so he might know better on that end.
Clemens admitted to B-12 injections. If McNamee is keeping syringes in beer cans, then one of them more than likely has his DNA on it. Proving that the steroids, or GH, found in with the blood was actually injected and not planted would be nearly impossible. Couple that with McNamee’s lies, and his past, and any first year law student could get an acquittal with this case.
Like ProfX said - chain of custody is key. McNamee has had possession of the beer cans for 6 years? This bullshit should be on Judge Judy - not in front of Congress.
At least that’s the way I see it. [/quote]
Thanks for the clarification guys. So, I guess with that we’re back at the original question: what kind of sicko hangs on to medical waste for years on end, anyhow?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Like ProfX said - chain of custody is key. McNamee has had possession of the beer cans for 6 years? This bullshit should be on Judge Judy - not in front of Congress. [/quote]
Chain of custody is key - no way of verifying the syringes went from Clemens’ ass to the courtroom in a verifiable, trustworthy sequence of ownership.
You mentioned the Owners earlier - this is classic getting what they want while taking the easy way out (benefits without responsibility). With Congress doing the dirty work of wagging fingers and interrogating shady players and trainers, the Owners get to stay out of it and say “we didn’t want to make this a big deal, but the government did”. So, the Owners get to clean up their league while someone else does the heavy lifting.
If Owners took on the job themselves, they would have to face tough questions as to why they contributed to the problem for years, only to now reverse face and decide to enforce some law and order in the name of preserving the integrity of the league. Owners would look bad.
The Owners, I suspect, are more than happy with Congress’ involvement.
Does anybody here (at T-Nation)really think Clemens did not take HgH?
[quote]jsal33 wrote:
Does anybody here (at T-Nation)really think Clemens did not take HgH?[/quote]
What made you think he did? Had Mitchell not put Clemens in his report, would you still think he took GH?
Rainjack I absolutly believe Macnamee’s testimony in the Mitchel report. Do I like him? Not at all. He was just not willing to go to jail for Clemens. Anderson took the bullet for Bonds maybe because they were friends since high school but Mac and Clem did not have a relationship of that long standing. It was a business relationship.
Just so you know yes I have guys that work for me over my house and they know my family well. I can not imagine one reason why he would lie about Clemens only. If Senator Mitchel coerced him into giving up a big name like Clemens that would be a huge conspiracy that I just do not buy at all
[quote]jsal33 wrote:
Rainjack I absolutly believe Macnamee’s testimony in the Mitchel report. [/quote]
Why? I honestly could care less whether Clemens did or not, but I do know Macnamee would be the last person I would trust on just about anything…especially after this.
If that is just your opinion, fine, but why act like your opinion is based on FACTS?
Prof
I did not say I trusted Macnamee simply that I believed his testimony to Mitchell. I just do not believe that Mitchell Petit Macnamee Mrs Petit and knoblach all conspired to get Clemmens. I really do not care at all about the HgH use. I just think it takes big arrogant balls to lie under oath and face perjury charges whoever it is that lied. At this point I think a further investigation is mandated. You simply can not lie under oath to the federal government and get away with it. One of them was lying.
[quote]jsal33 wrote:
Prof
I did not say I trusted Macnamee simply that I believed his testimony to Mitchell. I just do not believe that Mitchell Petit Macnamee Mrs Petit and knoblach all conspired to get Clemmens. I really do not care at all about the HgH use. I just think it takes big arrogant balls to lie under oath and face perjury charges whoever it is that lied. At this point I think a further investigation is mandated. You simply can not lie under oath to the federal government and get away with it. One of them was lying. [/quote]
You believe the accuser. I believe the accused. People’s word means nothing. Petitte changed his story at least once. McNamee was caught in several lies yesterday.
Clemens knows what he is doing. He has let McNamee hang himself. He has Petitte changing his story as well.
He can deny all he wants. The witness list against him has given any competent lawyer in creating reasonable doubt if this goes to a perjury trial.
Like I said earlier, there is no DA in the world that would touch this case. No one can prove Clemens used. If they had, we would have heard about it by now. The syringes in the beer can? That wouldn’t last 5 seconds in a court room.
Is Clemens lying? Based on the stories that have been told, and the supposed steroids that were injected, I would say that he didn’t. Either that, or he got absolutely no bump from such ignorant misuse.
But at the end of the day, Clemens is still innocent until he is proven guilty. And the proof needed to nake him guilty does not exist.
Why did the Blue Jays team doctor report that Clemens had an abscess on his butt consistent w/ (not a b12 shot) but winstrol injection?
Why would Pettite and his wife testify that Clemens said he used hgh?
Why would the trainer lie about clemens, when he’d already given the feds Pettite and Knoblauch?
What guy would let someone give his wife HGH injections?
Why would Clemens talk to the nanny TWICE, BEFORE giving her name to the feds?
This is baseballs doing. They knew about steroids and condoned it for years. They supported the investigation of Bonds, cause Selig hates him and they thought it would end there.
I have NO DOUBT that thousands of players took steroids. To me its not a big deal. The sanctimonious reaction of the Sportswriters is what i object to most. They are going to try to induct clemens and keep bonds out.
[quote]emdawgz1 wrote:
Why did the Blue Jays team doctor report that Clemens had an abscess on his butt consistent w/ (not a b12 shot) but winstrol injection?[/quote]
The team doctor is a moron. AN injection site abscess is an injection site abscess. Unless he tested the fluid drained from the abscess, there would be absolutely no way of knowing.
Besides, that was 10 years ago. Not really in the scope of the investigation.
What does that have to do with anything? How in the hell does Pettite’s wife know what Clemens did or didn’t use? Pettite is already proven himself to be a liar. He doesn’t know when or how long he took GH? Please. His story changed when it needed to to impune Clemens.
Uh - federal criminal charges hanging over his head if he didn’t give them a big fish, maybe?
What the fuck does that have to do with anything? My wife gets injections of peptides, and if I weren’t there to do it for here, I would not have a problem in the world getting a friend to do it for her. This is probably the stupidest thing that has been said in this thread so far.
Ask Clemens. You think the nanny is in on it too?
Good God. Your circumstantial evidence is underwhelming to say the least. Just goes to show you that people will believe what they want to believe regardless.
No argument here. In fact, I think that Selig is probably the most culpable of all the major players. He is a lazy piece of shit that could have, and should have put a stop to this shit years ago. Baseball is rode a wave of popularity that is solely attributable to the HR races from 98 - present. Steroids were a large part of that. Now he acts as if it’s only the fault of the players.
I wouldn’t go as far as saying thousands were on the juice. If that were the case, finding people to talk would not be as hard as it has proven to be, and the feds wouldn’t have to threaten prosecution to get information.
Both Bonds and Clemens deserve the HOF. Anyone that knows dick about the game knows this. Problem is that the press has to crucify everyone that doesn’t match up to their perfect idea of a player. Would Ty Cobb be in the HOF if the modern Sportswriter were voting? He was about the sorriest human being that ever played the game. Yet he is in Cooperstown.
A few things to add:
lying does not equal perjury
I do not know about y’all, but I cannot remember the specific details of conversations I had ten years ago. That is a lot of time for the memory to be embroidered. Research memory and you will find it is not trustworthy. To remember is to create in the present from traces of the past. If someone wants you to say you have a memory of talking about someone taking HGH, you just might.
On that note, anyone remember the game “telephone”? The premise is that information becomes polluted/changed as it passes from person to person. I do not care what Mrs. Pettite remembers. Her information had already been mediated by her husband.
Two people can have very different recollections about the same conversation. So for Pettite to come out of a conversation thinking one thing, and Clemens another should not be hard to accept.
This said, Congresses (and others) demands that memory equals fact is laughable. I am sure some police on this forum would back the idea that physical evidence is much better than eye witnesses, exactly because perception and memory are not reliable.
Do I think Clemens is guilty? I agree with rainjack. Innocent until proven guilty.
I think you texas guys are reaching a little here.
[quote]jsal33 wrote:
I think you texas guys are reaching a little here.[/quote]
But the Mass. guys are the picture of logic?
Clemens is more hated up there than he is loved down here. I have really never cared for him after he left UT.
Regardless. I said the same thing about Bonds as I am saying about Clemens: Innocent until proven guilty. Public opinion means nothing to me.
Clemens should be arrested for hiring a “personal trainer” that has him doing squats on a smith machine and situps in his bathroom. With all that money is that the best you can hire?? He should have asked Joe Buck’s opinion on a trainer, I read he has a pretty good one (T-Nation’s very own CT).
I think Congress has enough to botch-up. Bring home the troops; arrest the charlatans that give out mortgages to people that can’t afford them; stop giving tax breaks to the oil companies that are having mind blowing profits every quarter. But if you lie under oath you must be held accountable (re:Marion Jones).
Personally I think Clemens is lying. I also think bonds took steroids. And I think baseball is full of crap and trying to cover their ass.