[quote]Padilla7921 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Would someone tell me when Clemens lied? I have not seen anything he said that has strayed from his original story.
He lied when he talked about his conversations with Pettite, and I think he’s straight lying about taking steroids and HGH. I fail to believe that he’d simply let his wife use HGH supplied by McNamee.
However, to counter that, McNamee lied when he said that Clemens was at Canseco’s party, because, as about 100 other people (including Canseco himself) said, he wasn’t.[/quote]
How do you know he lied about Pettite? Pettite has changed his story about his usage. What’s stopping him from lying? I’ll tell you - because if he lies and says that Clemens did use, no one is going to doubt him because he is sayin what they want to hear.
Clemens has never changed anything he has said. Just because he is not saying what you think he should say does not make him a liar.
You can’t just have an opinion that he’s lying and have it stick to the wall.
His contradicting petitts testimony. If Clemens is not lying then charges must be brought against petit, knoblach, and macnamee. Each one of them testified under oath. I personally don’t expect that to happen but I may be wrong. If the syringes have corroborating evidence on them this would be very damaging to Clemens. The only problem would be the whole chain of evidence thing and it may not be admissable. I did begin to questiom Macnamee a little about the Canseco party until the Nanny issue was raised. That was clemens attempt to poke holes in Macnamee but it backfired in a big way. Could witness tampering charges follow. Roger himself made a “Federal Case” out of this whole thing.
[quote]jsal33 wrote:
His contradicting petitts testimony. If Clemens is not lying then charges must be brought against petit, knoblach, and macnamee. Each one of them testified under oath. I personally don’t expect that to happen but I may be wrong. If the syringes have corroborating evidence on them this would be very damaging to Clemens. The only problem would be the whole chain of evidence thing and it may not be admissable. I did begin to questiom Macnamee a little about the Canseco party until the Nanny issue was raised. That was clemens attempt to poke holes in Macnamee but it backfired in a big way. Could witness tampering charges follow. Roger himself made a “Federal Case” out of this whole thing. [/quote]
No - Mitchell and Bud Selig made a federal case out of this.
If I were Clemens, and I was innocent, I would do exactly what he is doing now. How is vociferously maintaining one’s innocence making a federal case out of this? Aren’t you supposed to be innocent until proven guilty?
Pettite has been caught in at least one lie. How is it you want to take the word of people that have been caught lying redhanded, but Clemens is guilty out of hand? His story has never changed. Everyone else’s has.
You have congressmen on the committee calling McNamee a liar, and for good reason.
Tried and fried by the almighty media. Congress the makers of laws and the breakers of laws. A lot of hear say and finger pointing. Seems a lot like the witch hunters of the McCarthy era. Name names or go down with the boat.
That explains your position. I have a friend in NH that hates Clemens as much as you do, but even he can see that this is nothing more than a witch hunt perpetrated by people in DC.
I never liked Clemens either. I hate just about everyone that plays for the yankees. But geez - innocent until proven guilty, remember?
Hahaha. I hope that did not sway my opinion. I have been around hear a long time like yourself and I am not like the general public that ignorantly claim steroids and HgH are terrible and ineffective. Bottom line they do what they claim to do. Roger lost me when he claimed he would be pulling tractors with his teeth and a third ear would grow out of his forehead. It appeared to me that he was joining te ignorant team to show they would not work anyway in an attempt to prove his innocence
[quote]jsal33 wrote:
what about the testimony about the absess.
B12 come on
[/quote]
It is none of my business whether he did, or he didn’t. He says he didn’t. Until it is proven otherwise - I believe him. Whoever would give a pitcher winny knows nothing about AAS. Winny makes the tendons very brittle - not something that any pitcher would want.
You don’t just take one injection of HGH - which is where Petitte lied, and had to change his story. You take it for a cycle from 2 weeks to several months.
What is so unbelievable about the B-12? It is sold as an injectable all over the internet and used by lots of folks. Google it.
You can get abscesses from anything injected into your body - even antibiotics.
This is the thing that is most frustrating about the whole issue: the utter ignorance about AAS by everyone involved. From the congressmen to the players to the trainers to the press to the general public - no one has a fucking clue except those that have taken the time to research this stuff.
I felt today was about the integrity of the comittee and their attempt to determine which one had the balls to lie under oath. I have a feeling something will follow like a grand jury investigation.
[quote]jsal33 wrote:
Do you think any perjury charges will follow?
Do you think they should?
I felt today was about the integrity of the comittee and their attempt to determine which one had the balls to lie under oath. I have a feeling something will follow like a grand jury investigation. [/quote]
If they are smart, congress will just let this die. No more intruding. The rumbling is already beginning among the masses. just look at this thread - people are sick of government intrusion and the wasting of our money.
If they proceed against Clemens, he will be allowed to defend himself. And unless there is a smoking gun in McName’s beer cans, there is nothing the prosecution can use as credible evidence.
No DA in the country would touch a perjury charge against Clemens. It’s not winnable.
McNamee’s a piece of shit, and nothing will be gained by going after him.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Clemens may be guilty as hell or innocent - but let MLB worry about it.
I don’t like cheaters, and if he cheated, let the league visit consequences on the cheaters.
But Congress should have exactly zero role in it. The antitrust exception has served as a Deal with the Devil to let Congress nanny over the sport.[/quote]
Agreed. They are grandstanding for their own benefit. Congress has every right to demand MLB has a reasonable testing policy in place however they are carrying this thing way to far going after individuals for no reason.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Agreed. They are grandstanding for their own benefit. Congress has every right to demand MLB has a reasonable testing policy in place however they are carrying this thing way to far going after individuals for no reason.[/quote]
I don’t think they have a right to demand anything. They have no business in baseball whatsoever.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Agreed. They are grandstanding for their own benefit. Congress has every right to demand MLB has a reasonable testing policy in place however they are carrying this thing way to far going after individuals for no reason.
I don’t think they have a right to demand anything. They have no business in baseball whatsoever. [/quote]
Of course they do. Baseball has special status so they don’t have to follow anti-trust laws and they play in tax payer subsidized stadiums.
Baseball has a sordid history and has even had a fixed World Series.
Reasonable oversight of MLB is necessary. No one is above the law, not even the lawmakers.
I think this current investigation is not reasonable oversight and Congress should not be doing it. I urge everyone to vote against whoever decided to bring this up in committee.
I don’t think they have the right to demand anything. Certainly they can suggest, urge, even beseech. Steroids in baseball is a problem that has only been made worse by congressional overstepping. Perhaps if baseball had some leadership worth a damn, we would not be having this conversation. Bud Selig should be banned from the sport for life.
I don’t think any team plays in a federally subsidized stadium. It is all local taxes that pay for the new ball parks. Not Federal money - not a federal problem.
Where is ownership’s responsibility in all of this?
Of course they do. Baseball has special status so they don’t have to follow anti-trust laws and they play in tax payer subsidized stadiums.
I don’t think they have the right to demand anything. Certainly they can suggest, urge, even beseech. Steroids in baseball is a problem that has only been made worse by congressional overstepping. Perhaps if baseball had some leadership worth a damn, we would not be having this conversation. Bud Selig should be banned from the sport for life.
I don’t think any team plays in a federally subsidized stadium. It is all local taxes that pay for the new ball parks. Not Federal money - not a federal problem.
[/quote]
The anti-trust exemption makes it a federal issue as does the interstate nature of the game. I would rather have one body (Congress) with oversight than every state legislature meddling.
[quote]
Where is ownership’s responsibility in all of this? [/quote]
This is the key question. With the complete lack of rules and lack of testing it is the owners that created a work environment that basically forced players to take steroids in order to compete.
The focus on the players is misdirected. If you notice MLB has been able to keep this focus on the mostly over the hill guys. I think the owners have been leading Congress and the media around by the nose.
I hate Clemens. He’s a headhunter and should have had his ass kicked by someone over the years for that alone.
That being said let it fucking go. Those idiots have a lot of work they could have been doing such as working on the economy, voting on judges etc. Baseball…give me a fucking break.
The info they have is all ass backwards anyway. For all the “damage” steroids are causing these 40 year old baseball players seem to be holding up pretty well!
[quote]rainjack wrote:
If they are smart, congress will just let this die. No more intruding. The rumbling is already beginning among the masses. just look at this thread - people are sick of government intrusion and the wasting of our money.
If they proceed against Clemens, he will be allowed to defend himself. And unless there is a smoking gun in McName’s beer cans, there is nothing the prosecution can use as credible evidence.
No DA in the country would touch a perjury charge against Clemens. It’s not winnable.
McNamee’s a piece of shit, and nothing will be gained by going after him.
[/quote]
I definitely agree with you here. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I am not happy with the way Congress is dealing with this. It’s not like they’re pressing retroactive criminal charges against everyone, they’re “doing it for the kids.” To my knowledge, Radomski is the only one who’s in real legal trouble for this, and for good reason (on the basis of performance enhancers in competitive sports, that is).
And yes, I also agree with you in that I don’t believe Clemens’ case is winnable for a prosecutor. There’s no solid, physical evidence. The syringes most likely won’t fly, but evidence is evidence, and they’re going to test them all the same. If the come back positive for Clemens’ DNA, that’s pretty damning. At the same time, they’d have to prove they were steroid injections, not B12 or Lidocaine.
And yeah, McNamee’s case is wishy washy. He doesn’t seem like a man of great integrity. He didn’t trust Clemens but he was “loyal to a fault.” How can you be loyal to a man you lack trust in? I mean, that’s common sense. That’s where McNamee’s integrity comes in. However, all involved must be careful not to commit ad hominem. There is no logic in that.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I personally don’t even understand supposedly keeping old needles and medical waste for years. Who the fuck does that?[/quote]
Makes you wonder if McNamee was keeping the syringes and gauze pads all along - if indeed they contain any traces of Clemens’ DNA and PEDs - just for a “rainy day” such as this.
As slimy as some of the people in the business are, it wouldn’t surprise me if McNamee was planning on eventually selling Clemens out from day one, or at least blackmailing him for a boatload of money (had Mitchell not gotten involved in this whole thing and threatened him with prison time).
If there’s no trace of DNA and PEDs, however (you obviously need both to prove anything; otherwise it’s just syringes that could have been used for anything), it’s all moot anyway and even that much more twisted that he keeps medical waste that long.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
But geez - innocent until proven guilty, remember? [/quote]
People seem to have forgotten that in this country long ago. With today’s media, it’s certainly more along the lines of “guilty until proven innocent.” A damn shame; our founding fathers are probably rolling in their graves.