Looking for Training Guidance

Training
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[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote]
These were men who were not strangers to violence, giving and receiving it. They had been in prison, usually directly because of violence. Maybe it’s a guy thing but I would size them up. If I had to fight them the way people here are describing fights I would lose. If I had to choose between that and running I would run. If I could use BJJ then I would feel like I had a better than good chance of winning. Again, if I couldn’t use BJJ then I would need to get away or go down fighting, but go down I would.[/quote]

BJJ is fine if you’re fighting 1v1. In fact, it is probably preferable because it gives you control while boxing doesn’t have that aspect. Moreso against folks who haven’t practiced in grappling techniques. It is incredibly, if not virtually impossible, for people who don’t have experience in grappling to deal with an experienced grappler. Royce Gracie showed that in the first several UFCs. While you cannot make a clear cut example between Roye Gracie’s performance and actual fighting, I seriously doubt anyone would be able to strike Royce Gracie in any particular body part while he is working on you.

But the assumption most people writing on this thread here have is that you cannot assume that a fight will remain 1v1. It’s stupid to assume otherwise. How in the world do you know that no one will butt in? Maybe some outsider will try to pull you off your opponent. Maybe he has a friend somewhere who wasn’t nearby when the fight started but now rushes to help him? You don’t know, and you simply cannot ever assume things when your health is on the line.

[quote]zecarlo wrote]
What I’m getting at is that I rarely read in the grappling vs striking debate, from the strikers, is situations dictating tactics. It is always the same scenario: a bar, a face to face confrontation, friends, etc. How about you are in your bed with your wife and your kids are in their rooms and you hear someone in your kitchen? How about you are a woman on a date and the guy is on top of you and won’t stop? How about you are a cop in an apartment and someone is trying to take your gun away?

What if you are tackled from behind? Trayvon vs Zimmerman took place on the ground, in a suburban neighborhood, not in a bar. Striking did not “help” Zimmerman but a gun did. Had he known BJJ maybe his life isn’t in a shambles right now.

BJJ is not the answer to every question but that does not mean those questions will not get asked.[/quote]

Are you being serious? How in the world is BJJ a genuine factor in any of those situations?

A home invasion? I would grab the biggest fucking thing I can either throw or swing at the guy. I’d do my best to scare him away, not roll on the ground and try to submit him.

As for your second example- how did the guy even get on top of you in the first place? And you know what’s really fun about a mount pulled by someone who is NOT a brown/black belt and actually has you pinned down properly? Their fucking balls are exposed. Do something about that.

If someone’s trying to take your gun away, then they must be really close and either bent over to some degree or their knees are not locked. Maybe not. I don’t know, too many assumptions must be made here. In any case, why not go for their groin? If I was somehow magically in that situation, I’d just throw him and try to regain control over my gun. I would not use ground based grappling techniques against someone like that.

Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman began their “fight” when George Zimmerman approached him. Not on the ground. Maybe if Martin knew BJJ then he wouldn’t have died? Who fucking knows. What I do know is that you’re making a lot of baseless assumptions in an effort to squeeze grappling into a framework in which it is not necessary.

Grappling has its places. None of the examples you gave above seem to be one of those places to me.

You seem to have done BJJ a lot. Did you never notice how exposed you are when you’re on the ground? Just how much of a tunnel vision occurs when you’re trying your best to get in a complicated technique? Rolling exposes you to a lot of dangers that are absolutely irrelevant when you’re rolling on the mat or in a class. However, you must be absolutely aware of these dangers if you ever intend to use your skills outside of class.

That is about the only reason why I don’t know why people think that using ground-based grappling techniques would be effective. There are suddenly a LOT of factors that you must consider, and your options are far more limited. If you find yourself in a position where you’re on the ground, then strike them immediately in their exposed body parts instead of trying to get a dominant position over them. Then get up and use all your advantages over them.

Fighting IRL is fighting IRL. Styles and techniques do not matter. You use whatever you can to deal with the situation as best as you can. If you find yourself in a situation where you have to restrain an individual for a long time, then a good grappling hold could do that trick. But, beyond that, why?[/quote]

I agree with everything you said, except that techniques do not matter. Techniques absolutely matter. That is the reason for training. If somebody attacks you and you don’t know what technique to use for a defense then what do you do? I think you might have been trying to say something else but I am not sure.

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Technique doesn’t matter because a bottle, or anything really, over the head beats just about every technique besides a world-class punch or an Olympic-level throw. I think my mom can do more damage than some random guy’s punch if she hits you over the head with the big stick at my house that my dad and I use for shoulder dislocates and groin/hip stretches.

Combat sports are still sports. They have rules in place to make things more sporting/less dangerous. That’s what caused judo and BJJ to differentiate in the first place. So if you rely on techniques that work in such settings, you may very well be in a rude surprise later.

On the other hand, what combat sports do is teach you to maintain calm and focus in a “simulated” combat environment, hence the combat part of combat sports. Your body doesn’t really know whether you’re actually fighting for your life when you’re sparring. It just reacts to the pain and automatically puts you into a fight or flight response. One guy who I used to spar with back in college went out to utterly crush you. Sparring against him felt like actual fighting, because if you dropped your guard for even a moment he’ll throw and pin you in a second. The guy was a green belt but his seoinage (his go-to throw) was equal to that of a black belt’s; our sensei, a 4th degree, praised his form and speed to high heavens. And it FUCKING hurts to be thrown and pinned when you’re not mentally prepared.

So combat sports gave me an opportunity to understand how it feels to have my body go into its fight or flight response. I understand how my body reacts, and I (hopefully) have a degree of control over how my body works during it. I won’t be flailing my arms uselessly or trying to land a hay-maker. I’d instead go straight to my judo training and try to at the very least avoid his punches or attempts to grab me and look for an opening. In this case, the overall training I received matters more than actual techniques I learned.

That’s the point of military and police training, isn’t it? You just drill a certain mentality or action into your body so much that it can override or at least become the key function you can rely on in a stressful environment.

Granted, I may be, probably am in fact, understating the importance of technique and conflating it with what I wrote above about training. Techniques that you drill into your body for years will obviously become a part of your very being, and hopefully you’ll be able to go to it in a split second.

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[quote]magick wrote:
Technique doesn’t matter because a bottle, or anything really, over the head beats just about every technique besides a world-class punch or an Olympic-level throw. I think my mom can do more damage than some random guy’s punch if she hits you over the head with the big stick at my house that my dad and I use for shoulder dislocates and groin/hip stretches.

Combat sports are still sports. They have rules in place to make things more sporting/less dangerous. That’s what caused judo and BJJ to differentiate in the first place. So if you rely on techniques that work in such settings, you may very well be in a rude surprise later.

On the other hand, what combat sports do is teach you to maintain calm and focus in a “simulated” combat environment, hence the combat part of combat sports. Your body doesn’t really know whether you’re actually fighting for your life when you’re sparring. It just reacts to the pain and automatically puts you into a fight or flight response. One guy who I used to spar with back in college went out to utterly crush you. Sparring against him felt like actual fighting, because if you dropped your guard for even a moment he’ll throw and pin you in a second. The guy was a green belt but his seoinage (his go-to throw) was equal to that of a black belt’s; our sensei, a 4th degree, praised his form and speed to high heavens. And it FUCKING hurts to be thrown and pinned when you’re not mentally prepared.

So combat sports gave me an opportunity to understand how it feels to have my body go into its fight or flight response. I understand how my body reacts, and I (hopefully) have a degree of control over how my body works during it. I won’t be flailing my arms uselessly or trying to land a hay-maker. I’d instead go straight to my judo training and try to at the very least avoid his punches or attempts to grab me and look for an opening. In this case, the overall training I received matters more than actual techniques I learned.

That’s the point of military and police training, isn’t it? You just drill a certain mentality or action into your body so much that it can override or at least become the key function you can rely on in a stressful environment.

Granted, I may be, probably am in fact, understating the importance of technique and conflating it with what I wrote above about training. Techniques that you drill into your body for years will obviously become a part of your very being, and hopefully you’ll be able to go to it in a split second.[/quote]

do you have any actual experience of real fighting or is this all theory?

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I was sixteen the last time I was in a fight. It was your normal fist-fight fight between two high school boys over something insignificant. If it matters at all, I won. Teachers chewed me out, but because I didn’t actually start it and because no one was seriously hurt nothing more came out of it.

Been in a couple of more fights earlier in childhood, but do they count?

The only thing I really remember from all those is getting angry enough that I didn’t care all that much about anything besides hitting the other guy.

What do you define as real fighting though? Because the only thing I would consider real fighting involves police work/warfare/or something in which the other fellow genuinely wants to kill or do permanent damage to you.

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[quote]magick wrote:
Technique doesn’t matter because a bottle, or anything really, over the head beats just about every technique besides a world-class punch or an Olympic-level throw. I think my mom can do more damage than some random guy’s punch if she hits you over the head with the big stick at my house that my dad and I use for shoulder dislocates and groin/hip stretches.

Combat sports are still sports. They have rules in place to make things more sporting/less dangerous. That’s what caused judo and BJJ to differentiate in the first place. So if you rely on techniques that work in such settings, you may very well be in a rude surprise later.

On the other hand, what combat sports do is teach you to maintain calm and focus in a “simulated” combat environment, hence the combat part of combat sports. Your body doesn’t really know whether you’re actually fighting for your life when you’re sparring. It just reacts to the pain and automatically puts you into a fight or flight response. One guy who I used to spar with back in college went out to utterly crush you. Sparring against him felt like actual fighting, because if you dropped your guard for even a moment he’ll throw and pin you in a second. The guy was a green belt but his seoinage (his go-to throw) was equal to that of a black belt’s; our sensei, a 4th degree, praised his form and speed to high heavens. And it FUCKING hurts to be thrown and pinned when you’re not mentally prepared.

So combat sports gave me an opportunity to understand how it feels to have my body go into its fight or flight response. I understand how my body reacts, and I (hopefully) have a degree of control over how my body works during it. I won’t be flailing my arms uselessly or trying to land a hay-maker. I’d instead go straight to my judo training and try to at the very least avoid his punches or attempts to grab me and look for an opening. In this case, the overall training I received matters more than actual techniques I learned.

That’s the point of military and police training, isn’t it? You just drill a certain mentality or action into your body so much that it can override or at least become the key function you can rely on in a stressful environment.

Granted, I may be, probably am in fact, understating the importance of technique and conflating it with what I wrote above about training. Techniques that you drill into your body for years will obviously become a part of your very being, and hopefully you’ll be able to go to it in a split second.[/quote]

Not a bad post, but how true it all is kinda depends on the person.

The hope is that the techniques get ingrained into you enough that they’re automatic responses, but damn does that take a lot of training to do.

And that’s not necessarily true that your body doesn’t know - when I spar I’m laid back as hell, but if something is going to go down in a bar or something and I see it coming, my heart rate jacks up, my hands start shaking, and my breathing gets faster.

I have to take deliberate steps (combat breathing) to try and get some more oxygen into my blood and try to slow my heart rate so I don’t get really into that “fight or flight” area.

There’s a lot going on that causes this, at least for me. When I’m sparring, I miss a punch? That’s fine, step around, adjust, work my way in again. In real life, I’m all too aware that my first shot my be my ONLY shot, and if I miss it or fuck it up I’m gonna pay in real blood and there might not be anyone there to stop it.

That kind of shit really causes your adrenaline to go through the roof, and before an encounter that’s not necessarily what I want.

There’s even examples of trained fighters going back to that flail-and-pray shit when they’re amped up enough - this is especially true from “traditional martial artists” who have a black belt, punch straight as an arrow, but have never been actually hit and totally lose their shit when they are.

I really can’t stress how at-odds you are with evolution and your little lizard brain when you learn a fighting art. You’re fighting your OODA loop, you’re fighting your inclination to just wile out like a lion is attacking you, and all the while your heart rate is through the roof and you’re getting tunnel vision and you’re just not sure what happened.

Due to the combination of alcohol and adrenaline, I have literally blacked out during fights - I don’t remember whole sections of what happened, and had to be told what exactly it was that I did.

It’s … well, it’s a lot different than the ring. And your body kinda knows that, no matter how much you’re willing it not to.

I highly suggest you read “Meditations on Violence” by Rory Miller if you have an abiding interest in this. He gets WAY more in depth and is much more clear about it than I…

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[quote]Pigeonkak wrote:

[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:

[/quote]

I really didn’t think those videos were indicative of ‘good’ BJJ.

However, a wins a win, especially in the street.

I have three disclaimers: (1) No one interfered. The fights remained one on one. (2) None of the fighters exhibited any particularly good fighting skill in any style. (3) BJJ was not the deciding factor that allowed victory.

I wonder if a new thread shouldn’t be opened with videos like this, where our members can pick apart the fight at a very technical level. That seems more useful than our usual ‘my style defeats yours’ debates. I think especially for BJJ street fights. I’m talking foot position, transitions, guards, grips, blocks, proper striking technique, proper kicking technique.

For example: In video one, I noticed the small guy didn’t attempt a full mount at all. He maintained side control throughout. His grip on the Kimura was inefficient. With his hand too far up the wrist his opponent’s bending wrist undermined the leverage. Little guy should have also transitioned to a five finger grip to further torque the kimura, whilst simultaneously dragging his elbows inwards to bring the opponents forearm and upper arm closer together at a reduced angle. I think that fight would have been over chop chop considering how much of a wobbly slob the TapouT hero was.

So, shall I start the thread?

[/quote]

The Armbar ended it straight away and was the deciding factor. The triangle, guard word, escape all won it for the third video.

Of course your technique will go a bit in a street fight, their adrenaline is probably sky high.

I also think the probability of it evolving into a two on one situation is being over played in the thread. I have never seen it and I see fights every weekend with drunk testosterone filled men. Not once has it involved more than two people. I really do not think the whole oh you get your head kicked while on the ground is that big a part of fighting.

However if it does happen that is shitty, but 9 times out of ten multiple opponents would beat a solo guy, jiu jitsu or boxing right? Also I wouldn’t be bothered if two guys beat me, it is the humiliation of being beat by one guy that I hate.

One of my early fights I beat the shit out of this guy for calling my mate racist names all day, then his older brother came and found me and we fought for like 20 minutes and no one broke it up. He basically made me quit mentally, my hands were swollen from punching him and I could not close my right hand. I had both eyes swollen and my lip was split. I basically gave up he had me in mount my arms pinned and I could not do anything. He looked even worse but managed to beat me.

I never want to feel that pathetic again.

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By the way on a related note, every time I won a fight my hands were sore for a couple months afterwards and I still have problems with them sometimes. I have tiny hands and wrists and I think this stops me hitting hard from the pain I get in my wrist so I do these little pat pat punching and always instinctively clinched and punched the body to avoid hand damage. Could my hands be a problem in boxing? Should I tell the instructor before my first lesson?

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[quote]magick wrote:
I was sixteen the last time I was in a fight. It was your normal fist-fight fight between two high school boys over something insignificant. If it matters at all, I won. Teachers chewed me out, but because I didn’t actually start it and because no one was seriously hurt nothing more came out of it.

Been in a couple of more fights earlier in childhood, but do they count?

The only thing I really remember from all those is getting angry enough that I didn’t care all that much about anything besides hitting the other guy.

What do you define as real fighting though? Because the only thing I would consider real fighting involves police work/warfare/or something in which the other fellow genuinely wants to kill or do permanent damage to you.[/quote]

So you can only be involved in a real fight if you are in the police or army? interesting.

i ask because i think some of the stuff you are saying is pretty naive. for example, saying that your body doesnt know the difference between a real fight and sparring. i strongly disagree. sparring and a real fight there is no conparison. emotions run much much higher in a real fight through adrenaline, fear and anger. these just are not there to the same degree when sparring and i dont really care what anyone says about that unless they have extensive experience of both.

i would personally argue that there isn’t even a comparison between a competitive martial art (e.g. a tournament or whatever) and an actual fight.

i think that alot of guys get a bit bogged down with the theory side of things and think they can make loads of comparison to a real fight situation cos they have sparred alot.

also your point on “technique will never beat a bottle over the head” or whatever you said in the other post. i don’t really agree either. i kind of get your sentiment but in a real situation you will be suprised what your body can withstand and in fact many people choose to use their fists rather than hit a bottle over someones head as it will inflict more damage. of course im not gonna dispute other items and am not saying “a REAL FIGHTER is invincible!!” or something dumb like that. however i was actually hit in the face with a brick once during a fight and was completely fine didnt go down of even feel amything (obviously a bit fucked afterward). the more danger the more adrenaline the less you feel.

i dont really know where this post is going.

this is just my observation by no means am I saying you are not entitled to your opinion or anything like that.

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well i wrote out a response and see Fightin Irish said what I wanted to say.

one other point on sparring and an actual fight - i don’t see the circumstances where you can experience an adrenal dump in a spar even if its against mike tyson.

by adrenal dump i mean there is no build up of adrenaline at all (which there would be if an argument started to escalate - you will feel the adrenaline building and if experienced can manage it/ react to it).

adrenal dump is basically a HUGE rush of adrenaline out of nowhere - so i dunno but imagine if a stranger out of nowhere screamed an inch from your face im gonna stab you - you would experience a massive rush of adrenaline.

this is a fucking horrible experience to have. it feels like a truly overwhelming rush of fear. of course if you can utilise you will benefit hugely in defending/ protecting yourself.

geoff thompson talks about a friend who is a really tough doorman. im paraphrasing a bit here but the guy is in his car relaxed at the lights when a couple of kids try and rob him. he experiences an adrenal dump and doesn’t do anything.

he is distraught afterwards saying he feels like a coward and he was bigger and tougher and more experienced etc and still didnt do anything. essentially he was “scared stiff” and couldnt deal with the adrenaline.

to varying degrees being scared stiff is something you can only deal with if ever through experience and not sparring in my opinion.

these emotions are really fucking powerful and take alot out of you - even if you react and “perform” the first few times after you really think fuck i am such a coward i felt so fucking scared i wanted to piss my pants.

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[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:

I also think the probability of it evolving into a two on one situation is being over played in the thread. I have never seen it and I see fights every weekend with drunk testosterone filled men. Not once has it involved more than two people. I really do not think the whole oh you get your head kicked while on the ground is that big a part of fighting.4
[/quote]

You could not be more wrong here.

I have lots - and I mean a lot - of experience with that. A shitload. Here, it’s ALWAYS 2-on-1, especially with certain groups of people, and I’ve seen the terrible, terrible results.

It’s not about pride. It’s about getting literally physically destroyed. And getting laid up in the hospital after that happens, and paying all the medical bills, and getting nearly blinded because a guy literally stomped on your face once you had 20 guys already on you and couldn’t do shit to stop him.

If you’ve never seen it happen, then cool. Pray that it keeps up like that. And my wild days are behind me now, but I will tell you the God’s honest truth - it is NOT an exaggerated threat.

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[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:
By the way on a related note, every time I won a fight my hands were sore for a couple months afterwards and I still have problems with them sometimes. I have tiny hands and wrists and I think this stops me hitting hard from the pain I get in my wrist so I do these little pat pat punching and always instinctively clinched and punched the body to avoid hand damage. Could my hands be a problem in boxing? Should I tell the instructor before my first lesson?[/quote]

In boxing you had this problem? Or in a real fight?

Because if you get into enough real fights, and punch enough solid shit when your hands aren’t prepared for it, you’re going to have hand problems. It’s almost a given. Especially if, as you said, you have small hands or weak wrists.

I have heard that Micky Ward has arthritis in his hands from those early streetfighting days in Lowell. And he’s got some big fists for a dude his size and came up as a boxer. So don’t feel bad about that.

Let him wrap your hands properly and all that, and use 16 oz. gloves, and you should be OK.

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[quote]
Not a bad post, but how true it all is kinda depends on the person.

The hope is that the techniques get ingrained into you enough that they’re automatic responses, but damn does that take a lot of training to do.

And that’s not necessarily true that your body doesn’t know - when I spar I’m laid back as hell, but if something is going to go down in a bar or something and I see it coming, my heart rate jacks up, my hands start shaking, and my breathing gets faster.[/quote]

You’re right. I based too much of my opinion on personal experiences and didn’t consider how others might react.

I personally get excited VERY quickly. That may very well be why I see sparring as such an intense experience. Because for me it is an intense experience. My heart rate feels like it jumps and I get all the feelings that I typically associate with adrenaline dump. Especially if I spar against people who are slightly better than me. I get the feeling that I can win, but it will be an uphill battle. And that just makes me go. It’ll probably be worse if I get in an actual fight, but I just recall my sparring, at least against those who are superior to me, as feeling similar to those little fights I had back in the day.

Could very well be cause I’ve never been in a proper fight like several of you have and I just don’t know how it feels.

[quote]
I really can’t stress how at-odds you are with evolution and your little lizard brain when you learn a fighting art. You’re fighting your OODA loop, you’re fighting your inclination to just wile out like a lion is attacking you, and all the while your heart rate is through the roof and you’re getting tunnel vision and you’re just not sure what happened.[/quote]

I agree. That was the point I was getting at, actually. Training something repeatedly lets you get over this, but as long as you can’t then the results of your training won’t show.

In extension of this, I thought about what I wrote regarding techniques. I was wrong. If you train something to death, then that naturally involves techniques. After all, you are training techniques so that you can use them naturally. Thus, being trained means that you are capable of using techniques. Ergo, my argument makes little sense.

I believe you. I just have old fights that really don’t count as fights to go with, and I don’t remember them ever being anymore intense than some of the sparring I’ve done against people. That is the depth of my experience, and it will probably lack in comparison to people who’ve been in actual fights.

The above is pretty much a reply to yolo84 as well. You’re right. I don’t have the experience that many of you folks here have, and as such I simply cannot make a proper rebuttal to anything.

Good stuff. Gives me more perspective on why some of you find the whole “BJJ is awesome for fights!” stuff so difficult to ignore.

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A lot of interesting backwards and forwards in this thread. The point Irish made, and Yolo, that a real street fight is nothing like the ring is exactly true, and the adrenaline dump you get when it’s really going down is unlike anything else. I’ve come very close to pissing myself and/or shitting myself on one or two very dangerous occasions. If it hadn’t been so important to look calm, I would of made a real mess of the pavement. When you get the serious adrenaline drop, in circumstances where you know the next 10 seconds might actually dictate the rest of your life, it takes all your focus AND EXPERIENCE, just to hold it together and perform as you need to.

Interestingly, I told a mate of mine about this who is an elite soldier, and his advice was to stay calm and keep eye contact, but to piss yourself in future, cos it’s a natural reaction that is your body trying to stop you getting infection if you take a solid shot in the abdomen. No idea if it is true, but it sounds solid, and he’s the kind of guy that knows his way around dangerous situations.

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Sharkonsie - I don’t want to beat a dead horse, but you’re looking at going from limited training, to 3 x bjj, 2 x boxing, AND olympic weightlifting all in one week? Really?

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[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
A lot of interesting backwards and forwards in this thread. The point Irish made, and Yolo, that a real street fight is nothing like the ring is exactly true, and the adrenaline dump you get when it’s really going down is unlike anything else. I’ve come very close to pissing myself and/or shitting myself on one or two very dangerous occasions. If it hadn’t been so important to look calm, I would of made a real mess of the pavement. When you get the serious adrenaline drop, in circumstances where you know the next 10 seconds might actually dictate the rest of your life, it takes all your focus AND EXPERIENCE, just to hold it together and perform as you need to.

Interestingly, I told a mate of mine about this who is an elite soldier, and his advice was to stay calm and keep eye contact, but to piss yourself in future, cos it’s a natural reaction that is your body trying to stop you getting infection if you take a solid shot in the abdomen. No idea if it is true, but it sounds solid, and he’s the kind of guy that knows his way around dangerous situations. [/quote]

If you have a full bladder and take a hard shot to it, it is possible that it could burst and you would be in for a lot of very, very serious trouble.

That’s where that advice comes from, and it is sound advice.

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For those who think that other people in the crowd aren’t just ITCHING to take a free shot at you:

Analysis here:

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[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
Sharkonsie - I don’t want to beat a dead horse, but you’re looking at going from limited training, to 3 x bjj, 2 x boxing, AND olympic weightlifting all in one week? Really?[/quote]

No mate I am going to start with some boxing. then reintroduce BJJ and will be going to olympic sports gym in a couple months. I figured best to just start training first get used to it again and then when I am feeling ok and my arm is fully healed go and start doing some S&C.

Also I am going to ask for a private program tailored to someone doing a lot of training, one which will not burn me out.

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Does anyone on T Nation go here? I am a bit nervous going, it seems to be all really strong bloked who go there, don’t want to get in the way. It says all levels welcome so I guess I might as well go in and see what its like.

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[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:

Does anyone on T Nation go here? I am a bit nervous going, it seems to be all really strong bloked who go there, don’t want to get in the way. It says all levels welcome so I guess I might as well go in and see what its like.[/quote]

It looks like a well-set-up place. You’re just going there to lift?