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Kano Jigoro’s judo is a sport but BJJ is not? That’s like saying Helio Gracie’s BJJ was developed to be a sport. Both have developed over the years to be more accommodating for tournament play. That does not mean that judo in itself is purely a sport; nor is BJJ.

Both judo and BJJ in full combat form would be so similar to one another that they would be practically indistinguishable from one another. They’ve just developed over the years to emphasize different things as based upon their tournament organizers’ wishes and desires. But at heart they’re one and the same. Hell, most actual judo schools have you work on your ground work for months before they even begin you on the throwing.

As for grappling’s applicability in real life situations- Like I wrote earlier, I’ve been in many situations while rolling around where I noticed that I was in a great position to strike someone in the groin, neck, head, what have you. Obviously they would have been in the same position at some point. Maybe a black belt would never even allow me to get into that kind of position. The highest belt I’ve actually rolled with was a brown belt. It doesn’t change the fact that getting onto the ground, for whatever reason, and then not spending every moment of your time standing up and trying to take advantage of your opponent being on the ground is silly. What are you going to do on the ground anyhow? Break their arms? Why not just stomp on their ribs instead? Their head? Are you going to just hold them on the ground till they calm down?

For what purpose are you engaging on the ground? That is always the question I have when I hear people saying their BJJ will help them on a street fight. Your purpose is either to either incapacitate your opponent in a manner so that they cannot fight back or give you the opportunity to run away.

Grappling’s existence is fairly easy to at least think on - It removed the importance of both armored and better equipped enemies by using effective body mechanics. Plus swords and stabbing weapons. Effective grappling places you in a dominant position over your opponent. Then you either break their limbs or stab them. A proper judo throw always has you holding onto their arm fully extended. Not all that difficult to place your full weight onto their arm. Not that difficult to reach for a weapon while they’re on the ground either. Real bona fide warfare is different from street fights, in much the same way street fights are different from tournaments. There are different expectations and rules and realities.

Most random folks do not walk around surrounded by some type of armor that makes fist striking or weapons not particularly useful against them. But if they were, then effective grappling on your part will completely defeat them.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
This has been utterly beaten to death on this board, and the consensus here (and among many, many others [/quote]

Most subjects in the world have been “utterly beaten to death” already so shall we all just sit in silence instead[/quote]

I’d reply but I’m breaking my own rule then.

Fuck.[/quote]

Oh dear, I was reading through my earlier posts and realised I fell into the “Big Guy vs Boxer” blackhole of the interwebs. Honestly, I really don’t believe that the best boxer in the world is invincible. Fights are just too fluid for that kind of thing. Hell, maybe Rob Gronkowski could beat up Floyd Mayweayther. I’d pay to watch that fight.

I just don’t want SharkOnsie to start the long road to getting SWOLE, to find that after years of force feeding himself 6 egg white before bed he isn’t any better at BJJ.

[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:

[/quote]

I really didn’t think those videos were indicative of ‘good’ BJJ.

However, a wins a win, especially in the street.

I have three disclaimers: (1) No one interfered. The fights remained one on one. (2) None of the fighters exhibited any particularly good fighting skill in any style. (3) BJJ was not the deciding factor that allowed victory.

I wonder if a new thread shouldn’t be opened with videos like this, where our members can pick apart the fight at a very technical level. That seems more useful than our usual ‘my style defeats yours’ debates. I think especially for BJJ street fights. I’m talking foot position, transitions, guards, grips, blocks, proper striking technique, proper kicking technique.

For example: In video one, I noticed the small guy didn’t attempt a full mount at all. He maintained side control throughout. His grip on the Kimura was inefficient. With his hand too far up the wrist his opponent’s bending wrist undermined the leverage. Little guy should have also transitioned to a five finger grip to further torque the kimura, whilst simultaneously dragging his elbows inwards to bring the opponents forearm and upper arm closer together at a reduced angle. I think that fight would have been over chop chop considering how much of a wobbly slob the TapouT hero was.

So, shall I start the thread?

Having actually looked at the videos, go for it. They’re not pretty.

[quote]magick wrote:
Having actually looked at the videos, go for it. They’re not pretty.[/quote]

Right on. I’ll start with that shitty first video and let other people just take it from there. Especially dudes like you Magick, with greater grappling knowledge.

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
This has been utterly beaten to death on this board, and the consensus here (and among many, many others [/quote]

Most subjects in the world have been “utterly beaten to death” already so shall we all just sit in silence instead[/quote]

No, but you can try the search function or something.

Really this topic has been repeated ad nauseam, and by the very same posters (Sento, Irish, Rob etc).

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
In the case of multiple attackers a striking art won’t help you either. The idea that friends will jump in if their buddy is getting beaten on the ground but not if he is getting beaten on the feet makes no sense.

Grappling is also about space and managing and controlling distance. Grappling requires close quarters? All hand to hand combat is considered close quarters. If you can reach someone with a punch you can reach them to grab them. How do professional boxers end up in clinches?

BJJ without the ground game is not Judo. Judo does not include striking (defense or offense) as it is a sport with rules against that whereas BJJ is a self-defense system developed to be used under different conditions.

Is BJJ or grappling the best choice for self-defense? It obviously depends upon the situation. Pick the right tool for the job and all of that. Nothing replaces common sense. But ignoring the possibility that you might end up in a grappling situation and assuming you are the one person who cannot be taken down or grabbed is to ignore reality. If grappling did not serve some practical purpose it would not have existed in various forms in practically every culture that has existed. [/quote]

Me and you have been over this many times. Although I respect your grappling knowledge - and I do - I have asked you before how many real streetfights you’ve been in.

Not seen on YouTube, not theorized about - how many times have you been punched in the face or hit with a beer bottle or whatever.

As I recall, your answer was none.

[quote]Pigeonkak wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
This has been utterly beaten to death on this board, and the consensus here (and among many, many others [/quote]

Most subjects in the world have been “utterly beaten to death” already so shall we all just sit in silence instead[/quote]

I’d reply but I’m breaking my own rule then.

Fuck.[/quote]

Oh dear, I was reading through my earlier posts and realised I fell into the “Big Guy vs Boxer” blackhole of the interwebs. Honestly, I really don’t believe that the best boxer in the world is invincible. Fights are just too fluid for that kind of thing. Hell, maybe Rob Gronkowski could beat up Floyd Mayweayther. I’d pay to watch that fight.

I just don’t want SharkOnsie to start the long road to getting SWOLE, to find that after years of force feeding himself 6 egg white before bed he isn’t any better at BJJ.
[/quote]

LOL.

Exactly. It happens quick. Even I can’t help a jab or two at the “BJJ RULZ FOR SELF-DEFENSE” crowd. But only because I don’t want lurkers thinking that it’s a good idea. I just don’t wish to argue it like I have so many times before.

But yea, so much crazy shit happens in real fights that saying this or that is guaranteed to work is just wrong.

One of my best friends is a great grappler and a solid striker. Got into a barfight in Canada, he ended up getting sucker punched and dropped first. All the training in the world won’t help when you’re the first guy that gets hit.

I’ve seen dude attacked while sitting on bar stools and they got wedged between the stool and the wall. Good luck doing anything when that happens. And so on and so forth.

Really I just live by the simple tenants that if someone breaks my zero barrier - lays a hand on me or my girl, is coming in in a threatening manner, corners me - I hit first and harderst, I stay on my feet, and I run away before the cops come.

That’s it.

Anything else is gravy.

Hell, losing the fight and not getting the charges - I’ll take that one too. Cops really suck.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
In the case of multiple attackers a striking art won’t help you either. The idea that friends will jump in if their buddy is getting beaten on the ground but not if he is getting beaten on the feet makes no sense.

Grappling is also about space and managing and controlling distance. Grappling requires close quarters? All hand to hand combat is considered close quarters. If you can reach someone with a punch you can reach them to grab them. How do professional boxers end up in clinches?

BJJ without the ground game is not Judo. Judo does not include striking (defense or offense) as it is a sport with rules against that whereas BJJ is a self-defense system developed to be used under different conditions.

Is BJJ or grappling the best choice for self-defense? It obviously depends upon the situation. Pick the right tool for the job and all of that. Nothing replaces common sense. But ignoring the possibility that you might end up in a grappling situation and assuming you are the one person who cannot be taken down or grabbed is to ignore reality. If grappling did not serve some practical purpose it would not have existed in various forms in practically every culture that has existed. [/quote]

Me and you have been over this many times. Although I respect your grappling knowledge - and I do - I have asked you before how many real streetfights you’ve been in.

Not seen on YouTube, not theorized about - how many times have you been punched in the face or hit with a beer bottle or whatever.

As I recall, your answer was none.

[/quote]
A. I don’t brag about fighting. I don’t brag about having friends who would commit a felony and kick someone in the head if he were on top of me in a fight. Streetfighting? What does that even mean? Streets don’t fight. Are we talking about fighting or defending oneself? You ask how many fights I have gotten into and not how many times I have needed to defend myself from an assault.

B. What does any of that have to do with what I posted? Ad hominem anyone?

C. You live in NJ. I lived there for a spell, Newark to be exact, not the Ironbound section. I was the only white person I ever saw who wasn’t a cop. It was a lot different from say, Montclair, or wherever you live. Punched? Beer bottles? People use guns there. James Dalton does not apply.

For the record, I have nothing against the striking arts as they are what I started in. I wanted to be a boxer but my father discouraged me from it pointing out the difference between the promoter and the fighter: both make money but only one is getting brain damage. Besides that he said my arms were too short. I would love to be able to just punch someone and either “win” or escape but I’m a dwarf and the people who I could beat with my fists are probably not going to be the same people I need to worry about in the first place.

I used to workout in the park in the ghetto and I would see ex-cons there working out. They were actually cool with me, maybe because we were there for the same reasons. I wouldn’t have trusted any of them with my car or wallet of course. Some of these guys looked like they could step right onto a football field, into a boxing ring or a bodybuilding stage. I’m sure we have all seen videos of prisoners working out and noticed that there were some monsters among them. If I had to fight one of them I would have no chance no matter how much boxing I did. They were much taller and bigger and, I couldn’t count on fear.

These were men who were not strangers to violence, giving and receiving it. They had been in prison, usually directly because of violence. Maybe it’s a guy thing but I would size them up. If I had to fight them the way people here are describing fights I would lose. If I had to choose between that and running I would run. If I could use BJJ then I would feel like I had a better than good chance of winning. Again, if I couldn’t use BJJ then I would need to get away or go down fighting, but go down I would.

What I’m getting at is that I rarely read in the grappling vs striking debate, from the strikers, is situations dictating tactics. It is always the same scenario: a bar, a face to face confrontation, friends, etc. How about you are in your bed with your wife and your kids are in their rooms and you hear someone in your kitchen? How about you are a woman on a date and the guy is on top of you and won’t stop? How about you are a cop in an apartment and someone is trying to take your gun away?

What if you are tackled from behind? Trayvon vs Zimmerman took place on the ground, in a suburban neighborhood, not in a bar. Striking did not “help” Zimmerman but a gun did. Had he known BJJ maybe his life isn’t in a shambles right now.

BJJ is not the answer to every question but that does not mean those questions will not get asked.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
A. I don’t brag about fighting. I don’t brag about having friends who would commit a felony and kick someone in the head if he were on top of me in a fight. Streetfighting? What does that even mean? Streets don’t fight. Are we talking about fighting or defending oneself? You ask how many fights I have gotten into and not how many times I have needed to defend myself from an assault.

B. What does any of that have to do with what I posted? Ad hominem anyone?

C. You live in NJ. I lived there for a spell, Newark to be exact, not the Ironbound section. I was the only white person I ever saw who wasn’t a cop. It was a lot different from say, Montclair, or wherever you live. Punched? Beer bottles? People use guns there. James Dalton does not apply. [/quote]

So the answer was… ?

Let me say this again at this juncture. BJJ does use standing techniques. Gracie BJJ is a self defense art, they teach defenses against grabs, chokes, punches, throws among other things. If you are like most people and just roll on the ground you are missing a whole other facet.

I am a striker at heart and I can use striking to avoid most ground encounters and the self defense I know from Krav certainly helps but in the last few years of doing BJJ I have learned some more tools that are great for stopping someone from having thier way with you. The UFC and popular media has put BJJ into a box that has you rolling around trying to submit someone and I feel the debate arises from peoples ignorance about it.

The Irony of that is I train 2-3 times a year with Royce Gracie and he is very very big on the standing and self defence aspect of BJJ.

I do know from experience that going to the ground can be fatal in many situations but being able to work from there is leaps and bounds better than not being able to. I also think if you train in the right way you can use ground fighting/jiu jitsu very effectivley while still protecting yourself from some of the pitfalls.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
In the case of multiple attackers a striking art won’t help you either. The idea that friends will jump in if their buddy is getting beaten on the ground but not if he is getting beaten on the feet makes no sense. [/quote]

this is completely wrong.

if you go down there is FAR less risk to the people standing up. if I am standing i can still hit people. if im rolling around on the ground and others are standing, what can i do to the guys standing? nothing.

if im on the ground they can kick me with greater force than a punch.

i have witnessed situations where someone is on the ground and literally STRANGERS have joined in and started kicking the person.

there is next to no risk if you are a 3rd party and choose to attack someone fighting on the ground. the risk is far greater if everyone is standing.

as far as “striking wont help” against multiple attackers what planet are you on?

  1. it will enable you to attempt to keep mobile and some semblance of distance.
  2. it is extremely intimidating - if there are 2-3 people around one guy and the one guy lays one or more of them out, chances are the remaining people will NOT be keen to continue the fight (generally speaking). i have done this first hand and witnessed it also. seeing someone punch people out cold with single punches is fucking scary to watch and i can assure you the vast majority of people dont want to get involved after seeing that happen.

Perpetuating the argument, just because it’s fun and I’m bored at work…

This is like the greatest video ever.

GRAB YOUR HANDBAGS BITCHES! TIME TO START SWINGING IN A BRUTAL STYLE VS. STYLE DEBATE!

WOOoooooOOOOooo

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Perpetuating the argument, just because it’s fun and I’m bored at work…

This is like the greatest video ever.

GRAB YOUR HANDBAGS BITCHES! TIME TO START SWINGING IN A BRUTAL STYLE VS. STYLE DEBATE!

WOOoooooOOOOooo[/quote]

You’re my boy and I got your back on this one.

Yes! That dude did it right. Going to the ground would have gave him one bad day.

[quote]zecarlo wrote]
These were men who were not strangers to violence, giving and receiving it. They had been in prison, usually directly because of violence. Maybe it’s a guy thing but I would size them up. If I had to fight them the way people here are describing fights I would lose. If I had to choose between that and running I would run. If I could use BJJ then I would feel like I had a better than good chance of winning. Again, if I couldn’t use BJJ then I would need to get away or go down fighting, but go down I would.[/quote]

BJJ is fine if you’re fighting 1v1. In fact, it is probably preferable because it gives you control while boxing doesn’t have that aspect. Moreso against folks who haven’t practiced in grappling techniques. It is incredibly, if not virtually impossible, for people who don’t have experience in grappling to deal with an experienced grappler. Royce Gracie showed that in the first several UFCs. While you cannot make a clear cut example between Roye Gracie’s performance and actual fighting, I seriously doubt anyone would be able to strike Royce Gracie in any particular body part while he is working on you.

But the assumption most people writing on this thread here have is that you cannot assume that a fight will remain 1v1. It’s stupid to assume otherwise. How in the world do you know that no one will butt in? Maybe some outsider will try to pull you off your opponent. Maybe he has a friend somewhere who wasn’t nearby when the fight started but now rushes to help him? You don’t know, and you simply cannot ever assume things when your health is on the line.

[quote]zecarlo wrote]
What I’m getting at is that I rarely read in the grappling vs striking debate, from the strikers, is situations dictating tactics. It is always the same scenario: a bar, a face to face confrontation, friends, etc. How about you are in your bed with your wife and your kids are in their rooms and you hear someone in your kitchen? How about you are a woman on a date and the guy is on top of you and won’t stop? How about you are a cop in an apartment and someone is trying to take your gun away?

What if you are tackled from behind? Trayvon vs Zimmerman took place on the ground, in a suburban neighborhood, not in a bar. Striking did not “help” Zimmerman but a gun did. Had he known BJJ maybe his life isn’t in a shambles right now.

BJJ is not the answer to every question but that does not mean those questions will not get asked.[/quote]

Are you being serious? How in the world is BJJ a genuine factor in any of those situations?

A home invasion? I would grab the biggest fucking thing I can either throw or swing at the guy. I’d do my best to scare him away, not roll on the ground and try to submit him.

As for your second example- how did the guy even get on top of you in the first place? And you know what’s really fun about a mount pulled by someone who is NOT a brown/black belt and actually has you pinned down properly? Their fucking balls are exposed. Do something about that.

If someone’s trying to take your gun away, then they must be really close and either bent over to some degree or their knees are not locked. Maybe not. I don’t know, too many assumptions must be made here. In any case, why not go for their groin? If I was somehow magically in that situation, I’d just throw him and try to regain control over my gun. I would not use ground based grappling techniques against someone like that.

Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman began their “fight” when George Zimmerman approached him. Not on the ground. Maybe if Martin knew BJJ then he wouldn’t have died? Who fucking knows. What I do know is that you’re making a lot of baseless assumptions in an effort to squeeze grappling into a framework in which it is not necessary.

Grappling has its places. None of the examples you gave above seem to be one of those places to me.

You seem to have done BJJ a lot. Did you never notice how exposed you are when you’re on the ground? Just how much of a tunnel vision occurs when you’re trying your best to get in a complicated technique? Rolling exposes you to a lot of dangers that are absolutely irrelevant when you’re rolling on the mat or in a class. However, you must be absolutely aware of these dangers if you ever intend to use your skills outside of class.

That is about the only reason why I don’t know why people think that using ground-based grappling techniques would be effective. There are suddenly a LOT of factors that you must consider, and your options are far more limited. If you find yourself in a position where you’re on the ground, then strike them immediately in their exposed body parts instead of trying to get a dominant position over them. Then get up and use all your advantages over them.

Fighting IRL is fighting IRL. Styles and techniques do not matter. You use whatever you can to deal with the situation as best as you can. If you find yourself in a situation where you have to restrain an individual for a long time, then a good grappling hold could do that trick. But, beyond that, why?

Popped down to the gym to speak to the dude about coming along for training. I have chatted to him before without knowing it outside the gym, recognized his picture on the site and it dawned on me I knew him. Seemed like a nice bloke. Am going to do two night a week boxing and three jujitsu, one hour of which will be wrestling intro class in between jits classes.

I have also decided to go to olympic sports gym once I get my new work hours and do my strength and conditioning there. They have powerlifting champions there, sprinting trach, boxing and powerlifting equipment and it is really well priced. They have former s&c coach from manchester united and can teach me how to lift and give me a program designed specifically to my situation.

Looking forward to just getting in there and training and not talking about it now.

Should I fuck it off and just buy a cape and a cane and freak people out of fighting me?

!

Grats mate, you’re got all the resources you need on hand. Just be safe and don’t murder your body =)