[quote]magick wrote:
Style vs. style has been beaten to death. It should be generally accepted that BJJ and grappling techniques in general are terrific against people who do not know how they work. It is virtually impossible to escape any joint attack, or even react effectively against it for that matter, if it’s done by an experienced individual against someone who hasn’t trained in it/to deal with it in some manner.
But that really doesn’t mean shit. BJJ is crap in anything besides a 1v1 setting unless you have people looking out for you as well. It requires something close to tunnel vision to be able to work grappling techniques, because they’re complicated and you’re taught by most combat sport places to assume that you’re against just one person. So you don’t ever learn to pay attention to anything besides just one guy. Everything is a lot easier when you’re against just one person. Plus most BJJ people place extreme emphasis on the ground game, and who in the world wants to go on the ground in an actual fight? Not only is concrete very very hard, most places in general have very dirty grounds and often sharp, dangerous objects that you (hopefully) do not have on your mat. I simply do not understand the point of people learning sport BJJ for self defense. Unless you’re learning it from some mystical place in Brazil where they teach you true BJJ that is an actual combat system instead of the combat sport one everyone learns.
On the other hand, one of boxing’s fundamentals (afaik) is in controlling space. It’s required because otherwise you wouldn’t be able to determine effective range and escape routes and whatnot. Controlling space requires you to be mindful of the given area and your surroundings, which would obviously help in a fight. But, like Sentoguy (I think it was) said, a bar is not a boxing ring. You know exactly how much space you have in a boxing ring. You do not in a bar. You do not have random shit lying on the ground in a boxing ring. You have those in spades in a bar. I don’t know how much of a tunnel vision boxers get while they’re fighting. If it’s as bad as it gets in judo, then boxing is about as useful in a fight involving more than one people as bjj and judo is.
Like I keep repeating, awareness of your body and the environment around you is paramount in a fight. Nothing else matters. If you’re beating someone’s ass and then you trip over a can because you didn’t notice it, then you’re suddenly in a hugely compromised position. If you notice a big mug sitting on a table right next to you, then you’d be an idiot not to use it against your opponent.
You can learn/train in whatever the fuck combat sport you like. But if you think that it makes you effective in a fight, then you’re probably wrong. Simply because virtually all combat sport has you in a 1v1 situation, which actively promotes and in fact requires tunnel vision. Obviously many fights do not involve more than one opponent. But, at the same time, many fights do as well.[/quote]
i kind of agree but also don’t really know what your point is with some of this.
with regards to fighting in a bar and/or multiple opponents:
you do indeed get tunnel vision, which i feel is directly related to how dangerous the situation you are in (like an intuitive survival mechanism). I had a fight once against multiple opponents (it is outlined in one of the stickied threads) and experienced EXTREME tunnel vision - the only time before or since I have had such a sensation. My defence which luckily worked out was to “attack the attacker” basically punching as hard as possible to the head of the nearest person (so all of them, there were 3-4). I managed to immediately drop two of them and then concentrated on the remaining one or two.
In my opinion if you get in a fight in a bar or nightclub why would you EVER do anything else other than punch the person straight in the face? (discounting weapons etc). Any kind of kicking or grappling is immediately more risky imo, especially if you are drunk or drinking which you may well be.
I think in a real life situation - especially the more dangerous it is - adrenaline is running extremely high and you need to do something you can instinctively fall back on. By choosing punching - you immediately have a concept of range for both defence and attack, and you stay on your feet. From a purely defence perspective, boxing is perfect for keeping a “fence” /disarming your opponent/ positioning yourself for attack. If you face multiple opponents you need to stay on your feet and be mobile. So again punch one and escape or stay up and punch them all. If you go down you could easily die.
I don’t get the point you make on controlling space. This is paramount between winning and losing in a street fight. If you feel genuinely threatened you need to immediately control your space and either plan your exit or plan your attack. Basically everything Geoff Thompson says on this subject is perfect - concerning verbal behaviour, covert foot movement to get in position, using your arms as a fence etc etc.
The real key with this i feel is managing your adrenaline well enough so that you know your situation (who else is around, is he just posturing etc) AND you can act on it. Ultimately though, to actually be “good” at real life fighting you need to do it, cos it is still a different game from boxing or judo or whatever. But of course, don’t try and be “good” at it cos eventually you will get arrested or badly injured yourself.
I dont even know if we are disagreeing - these are just my thoughts.
