Does anybody here have any real long term perspective when it comes to their training? I think I’ve completely lost mine.
4 week bulking cycle - oops gained a bit too much fat - 6 week cutting cycle - lost too much lean body mass - 2 week MAG-10 cycle - didn't gain 20 lbs (I must have done something wrong).
Ok, I'm exagerating, but this is a serious problem. Short term goals are great, but whatever happened to putting on a good solid 1/2 lb of lean body mass each week. I mean it adds up to 26 lbs in a year and could probably be done with no fat gain or even some fat loss. The constant drastic cycling of calories, workout routines and supplements gets difficult to tolerate and often ends up as 10 steps forward, 9 steps back except for only the best planned. There has to be an easier way to make progress.
Obviously, I'm not against short term results, but I think it would benefit a lot of us to step back and look at a long term plan. Any thoughts?
Nice thought, but in actuality it seems like when you gain you gain big, and when you diet you lose big - not a slow steady gain over a long period of time. I find that unless I shake things up pretty hard, my body tends to just stay at a given point (and that point gets progressively smaller and fatter as I get older, alas). So I go for a shock every couple of months or so, then give myself time to get used to the new condition, then do it again.
As for long-term goals, though, yeah, I think it helps to have an idea of what you want to look like “ultimately”. Even if you never get there!
Most of us here know a lot about bodybuilding and want to maximize our time. And sometimes it’s just hard to resign yourself to lose 1lb per week if you’ve got 15lbs to lose and you think you can push it to 2lbs a week. Speaking for myself, I took it upon myself to learn everything I could so I could get results and get them fast. I didn’t take up lifting so I could ‘tone up’ or look good eventually. And you’re probably right that it would have been wiser to take a more long term approach. I know I’ve lost loads of LBM while dieting cause I’m so impatient. If it would get me there faster, I’d lift all day and eat nothing. (good thing i’ve come across t-mag, else i probably would’ve tried that by now). In a year and a half of lifting I haven’t made near the progress I should have simply because I’ve tried to push the limits with everything and either gained too much fat or lost too much muscle as a side efffect.
I agree, one of the problems with having such a great site is that there is so much great advice that comes up on a weekly and in some cases daily basis that it is like being at a smorgasbord, so many neat things and I want to try them all right now, all at once. I guess the answer is discipline and faith in what we are doing. That said I’m as guilty of it as the next person.
Yes. I call it Strategic Fitness. In a nut shell, you start with your goal in mind and work backwards from there. Then once you have a plan in place you begin a cycle of train - analysis - adjust(as necessary) - train.
Best of Luck.
I’m interested Jason. That has been my problem I think for several years. Back and forth from one extreme to another, and as the years pass,I’m now 42, it is getting more difficult to cut up after a bulk cycle.
I too was pondering what to do next as I’m in the middle of a cutting phase( at 13.6% as of 12 days ago, trying for 6% as a goal) and wondered “What next?” after I reach my goal. I definitely don’t want to do another bulk cycle immediately afterwards. I too am looking for more long term solutions.
I sometimes question “what the heck am I doing this for?” I am fully clothed 99% of time–no one can see the results of what I am doing! I also abhore those clowns who walk around always showing their muscles in cut-offs and wife beaters–I think the general public thinks weight lifting produces one thing–Idiots with no life purpose. I lift to encourage others (family/friends) to take up some type of physical activity so that we can all enjoy a higher quality of life together. Yeah, my personal appearance is important, but relationships with other people is what my life is now about.
Just this week I was thinking how I was going to let my body dictate my training/diet needs [within moderation]. Most bodybuilders change their training/diet far too often to ‘shock their systems’. This approach is very difficult mentally. Especially when you’re sporadically on a keto diet.
For the next 12 weeks I’ve planned to adjust my calorie intake to gain 2-4 lbs per month using a 30P-40C-30F macro breakdown. My workouts will be geared to gaining strength and power, gainging muscle mass will just be a bonus. I’ll cycle variations of the same olympic lifts to get a little variation and still allow me to ‘chase the same carrot’. To improve my limit strength I’ll keep the powerlifting movements.
If after the 12 weeks my bodyfat is still below 12% I will continue with the same traning/diet model. If not I will still keep the same training model but lower my calorie intake to lose 1 pound per week. I no longer plan to get on a keto diet. My only macro adjustment will be to swap my carb and protein percentages 30C-40P-30F.
Anywho, I’m glad to see I’m not the only one needing stability. smile Good Luck
Bro, I am right there with you. I constantly find myself wanting to change my programs every two weeks due to boredom, and I forget to look at the overall scheme of things. I’m now trying to set up mesocycles that contain one month of training and then changing each month with a goal toward hypertrophy with various mesocycles throughout the year for strength training and cutting. Right now, I’m doing HST. I’ll follow this with two months of EDT training. The third month will be for either Meltdown Training or the EDT Arm Specialization program, or the other way around. Then I will do a month of strength training (5x5 similar to Ripped, Rugged & Dense) and then back to hypertrophy programs like HST, EDT, etc. This way, I can create a whole year’s worth of training with my goals in mind. Now all I need to do is stick to the program!
Hey bud… sounds like you are in the same boat that I’m in. (in a way) I’m tired of this shocking crap… too much stress for me right now… after that 4 months dieting,., I wanted, and did, start the 2week cycles of ABCDE, and after the 3rd week, the dieting week, that’s when I said “fuck it”…got tired of these hard goals. Some people don’t realize that it’s a lifestyle change you have to get used to, not just the diet and training, to make such severe gains/losses in short times. I can do it for awhile, you can, and a lot of others on here who are dedicated can do it too… but, fuck, we’re all human, we all need to relax and change things by slowing down a bit… Right now I’m enjoying eating what I want, and working out because I enjoy it, and by god (!!), if I want a few beers, I drink a few beers !!..right now, I’m finding it pretty advantageous for me to take myostat, because I’m not doing anything “shocking” the next several months, just eating a little above maintenance, but keeping the diet log in the drawer, trying to hover around 11-13%, which I watch pretty closely, and seems remarkably easy for me to maintain (must be my body’s new “set-point”)… I’m just letting this myostat stew in my system for awhile, eating more than 1g/# of protein per day. Once I feel recharged and ready to make some serious gains, with those “bulking phases” while using mag-10, etc… I reckon I’ll blow up with mass of herclean proportions !!.. just chill out and relax a bit. Just enjoy working out…( I’m making the assumption that it sounds like you’re either getting burned out, or on the verge of being burned out )…ok, I’m not really answering your question, but yes, I think a person can make steady gains… shit, I have made steady gains, all in all, in the past several years. In my experience, I’d workout for awhile, and get mad that I wasn’t making anymore gains, and changed something drastically to try to bump myself out of the rut. Just learning through this web site, have I learned that a person can make great gains in short periods of time, and myself have implemented them and had great results, and I will continue to do these types of training and dieting regiems, just not right now…
Jason, you wrote “that there must be an easier way to make progress.” I think everything depends on what you define as progress. If someone has grown sick of the constant cutting/bulking cycles that are a part of bodybuilding, maybe it’s time to pursue some lifting goals based around something other than improving body comp. At that point, progress might be measured in a different way (i.e. increasing a given lift, learning and completing a new lift, etc.). Either that, or just reevaluate what your long term goals really are: are you trying to compete in a show someday, or simply stay at a reasonable bodyfat % while adding some LBM over time? If you don’t plan on competing, you could probably stabilize your nutrition a bit and focus on enjoying your time in the gym, trying new things in the gym, etc…
Long term is good. Between recent articles at T-mag and some archive stuff I have pretty much got my lifting planned out through April of next year and starting this august. HST, then great guns, Chad Waterbury’s “More is Better” protocol, and then Joel Marions Ripped, Rugged and Dense towards the end of which I will begin cutting. A sub theme during this will be my use of some of the more unorthodox lifts written about lately especially during the Waterbury routine. One armed deadlifts, complexes, etc.
Great discussion so far. It is very interesting to see different perspectives.
Anyway, what I’m trying to get it here is the constant pendulum swing of cutting/bulking may do more harm than good. How many of us actually know what our maintenance calories are? Probably few, because of the constant intense bulk/cut cycles.
Of course there is always room to add in some short bulk/cut cycles when the energy, time and desire is there. But I'm thinking that a program that revolves primarily around maintenance and slight modifications would be easier to maintain consistently and could provide slow/steady results rather than an extreme up/down cycling that we so often choose to follow.
Of course, I think this style of training/nutrition is primarily suited for those who are fairly close to their ideal body comp. So getting close to your ideal body comp needs to be the first step.
Anyway, I'm trying to step back. Make some long term goals and work backwards from there. I've got a bit more fat to lose before I head to Maui, but I'm going to map out my training for several months, plan in rest periods, slightly cycle cals up or down to acheive body comp/strength results and really try a more gradual approach rather than a whiplash.
And I think that Podge is right. Myostat might be the perfect supplement for periods of time like this. I just think that more focus needs to be made on acheiving long term gains and maintaining them than on how fast you can lose fat or gain muscle. Any other thoughts? Great stuff so far. Would love to hear more from some of the veterans. Char and Older Lifter - your insight is always a bonus. Thanks!
Al’s post reminded me of something else…I have found that planning too far in advance is useless much of the time. There are too many factors that could change between now and next April or whenever to plan out training for that long. You may adapt to a program quickly, and need a change…you may have an injury that flares up that you need to correct…your goals themselves may change…too many variables.
My long term goal is to be able to wina powerlifting meet…The only thing is that I dont really like the training-I’m more into the athletic type lifts. Alos I want to do compete in a olympic lifting meet, but Im having trouble finding a good sample workout. Right now Im doing 26 WEEKS OF RENEGRADE training and I really like it.
Will
Jason, how old are you ???.. I can’t guess your age, and I’m just curious… I’m a little laxed on my goals. Shit, I’m almost 32, I’ve been lifting hard with little breaks for 16 years… I’ve got 7 1st place powerlifting trophies from my teenage to young adult years, I don’t have any desire to powerlift anymore. I wanted to be a competitive BB in my early 20’s, and “did” what it took for about a year, and wised up and thought it was stupid… I know I’m not going to be Arnold, or a pro bodybuilder, nor do I want to be. I’m not Bodybuilding to be a model, or for any other means to make money from it. I’m (now) married to a gorgeous woman, so looking good for the ladies has no purpose, even though she loves the way I’m built so that’s all that matters… I guess I lift only for the little personal goals. Most of my goals are lifting certain amounts of a given weight for so many reps. But I guess my main body goal is to, of course, add more muscle, (big fucking DUH there.) 10 pounds more muscle…and weight 225 with 6% BF. (i got pretty lean this summer, but not hard. i’m very eager to see how i’d look)…In a year, which I think is a very realistic goal for me . That is the biggest and only real goal I have. Luckily, I feel it’s very obtainable since I’ve discovered this site… I just look forward to in January where I hit the Biotest prhormones hard… I like being big…at 32, I don’t look too bad right now, but what’s the sense of doing this without improving in some sort of way ?
My take: I agree that losing sight of the long-term goal leads to floundering. For most of us our physique goals are two-pronged, involving gaining muscle and losing bodyfat. One of them, namely, losing fat, seems to me a more linear (and easier) process. Thus, the way I handle the short/long term goal conflict is to keep fat loss a non-issue (relatively speaking); in other words, I keep my bodyfat low enough that I’m never really displeased with it. I only bulk within an acceptable range of bodyfat; thus, I’m never more than 4 weeks from fairly ripped condition, and I’m able to avoid the pernicious, self-defeating bulk-cut-bulk cycle that plagues so many. Yes, my muscular gains are slower this way, but at least my goals remain fairly consistent. Bottom line: lose bodyfat to a point where you’re happy with it, and then only bulk to a point where you’re still happy with it. Work within that range. Yo-yo problem solved.
Podge - I’m 25. BTW, it was cool to hear about your history. Interesting stuff. Always nice to know what your forum buddies have been through.
Zev - Your experience very much jives with the conclusion that I've drawn. The key is to find the optimal body comp and then stick with it while adding mass but never getting too far out of a happy range.
Good stuff! Like I said, I've got a bit of fat to lose and I think I will use the rest of the year (don't think I'll need it all) to hit low body fat level that I want and then I'll go from there.
Jason, re-reading your original post it seems like you don’t have any “just maintain and adapt” mesocycles incorporated into your overall plan. (Correct me if I’m wrong here…) I personally spend about half to 2/3 of my time getting used to a new condition, whether it’s being ripped or being bigger.
Now, I’m sure that a lot of the guys on this board (especially the younger ones) would take issue with this approach. And I don’t recommend it myself if you’re a newbie; you should be making constant (albeit dwindling) progress for your first 3 or 4 years.
But if you’re older (talking about training age and, to a lesser extent, chronological age), then I think that you really have to ask yourself what you’re in it for. V2, for example, had a really good attitude about the whole thing above. In my own case, I’ve always just trained to look good (in or out of clothes) and stave off the signs of aging as much as possible. This produces long-term health and well-being, and I think it’s a good lifestyle.
Anyway, there seems to be a lot of unecessary hurry on this board (and maybe others as well - I wouldn’t know because I rarely read them). Sure, everyone wants to look good as soons as possible. But there are other, and IMHO more important, considerations. Maybe a little more sit-back-and-enjoy-the -fruits-of-your- efforts-so-far would help your attitude out a bit at this point…?
Just as a side note, I myself, due to work considerations, only got three workouts in over the month of mid-June to mid-July. When I started back last week (on the Meltdown program, which is kicking my ass), I was refreshed, invigorated, eager to start - and I hadn’t lost a thing bodycomp-wise. So the month “off” was kind of a nice change of pace, especially during this hot 'n humid summer.