What’s your long term physique goal, say 5-10 years from now? Chances are you want to be huge and ripped (Brad Pitt, Men’s Health, and powerlifting guys, this thread might not be as relevant to you…).
Recent research has suggested that maintaining a lower bodyfat percentage is ideal for *lean* mass gains as opposed to fat mass. Consequently, I'm sure myself and others are now even more wary of letting BF%s slip. And anyway, who wants to be "fat"? This is all well and good, but does maintaining a reasonable level of body fat detract from long term mass gains and delay the achievement of a huge physqiue?
The opposing school of thought would be to continuously, yet sensibly bulk to a point where you *were* huge (I'll refrain from discussing the crazy antics of bulking like a maniac and putting on *excessive* fat). Along the way some minor adjustments might have to be made and the occasional pegging back of calories or extra cardio may be necessary - but no strict cutting cycles or anything of the sort. Sure, you might have to put up with the accumulation of some fat and may even be more unhappy with the way you look, but we're thinking long term here. After a certain size is reached, you could then attempt to lean up. Hopefully *sensible* bulking over a long period of time could keep fat gains under control, but there is going to be quite a bit to lose regardless...
So, the dilemma. Does a series of inter-dispersed cutting and bulking cycles detract from a long-term goal? Do cutting cycles eat into possible mass gains in the longer term? Consequently, does this delay the goal of being huge and ripped, with the trainee being in a constant state of flux - cutting and bulking largely cancelling each other out and progression being minimal?
Quite a loaded topic, and one I’m really struggling with. Research does tend to suggest that this line of thinking might be wrong, but I can’t help but think I’m robbing myself in the long term…
I’m curious about this issue too… like for example I’ll go on a fat fast, lose a buncha weight, look in the mirror and will think well I’m lookin small, but at least I don’t have a gut and love handles. Then I’ll start to bulk and look a bit bigger (C cups hehe) but I’ll start getting the love handles so I’ll taper off. Dunno how big you are… but perhaps someone who doesn’t consider their genetics all that great who thru hard work and determination gained a good amount of size over the years could answer this question for the both of us… did they go thru a phaze of fat powerlifter look to lean bodybuilder or incremental bodybuilder look… hmm…
I personally have my training geared towards a competitive bodybuilding cycle, where each year I train for mass for about 8 months followed by 3-4 months of strict dieting leading up to contests, i dont tend to have smaller cutting cycles as I personally find that I seem to just go in circles and dont gain anything mass wise. This way seems to work for me and I also feel that if you constantly worry about to much weight gain you hold yourself back from gaining maximum muscle development due to fear of getting fat therefor restricting your calorie intake. this is why I didn’t gain much during my initail years of training because I always wanted to see my abs even though I was trying to gain weight.
Personally I do not know why everyone is constantly on a bulk or cutting cycle. I have found a happy medium (lean and not too big). But it seems most people are not happy with where they are so they are always either in a bulk/cut cycle. I guess just everyone has different goals, but I try not to think about it too much. I always switch up my training to keep things interesting, and I have a very clean diet.
Freebie: This is why such diets as fat fast and other strict keto types SUCK BALLS.
My Response: Unless you’re using a fairly heavy androgen, you WILL lose muscle mass. Most people that use this protocol (bulk, extreme diet, bulk, extreme diet) go in circles. I have learned that it’s necessary for most individuals to bulk for maybe 4-6 months, then diet SLOWLY for 2-3 months. Using a T-dawg or Modified Targeted Ketogenic type diet is the way to go for losing fat quickly while retaining muscle mass. Low intensity cardio in the AM on an empty stomach, while chastised here at T-mag, is undoubtedly the way to most efficiently burn bodyfat. Using a lighter androgen, such as Androsol or oral 4AD-EC in the dieting phase always helps retain muscle, and using the above method, will actually allow you to gain some strength and size while losing bodyfat! Using a stronger androgen, IMO is a waste of money when calories are low. I hope someone can benefit from this.
If you’re not bulking or cutting, you’re not getting anywhere fast. Most of us here are in the business of trying to improve ourselves. If you’ve reached your goal, then that’s fine, but I think it’s rather pointless to aimlessly putter along at maintenance calories all year long in hopes it will take you somewhere. Many of us were at this stage once (me included) but woke up when we noticed we hadn’t progressed in months, got mad, and decided to do something about it.
My thoughts are that you do one really good cutting cycle to get down to a very reasonable %BF say 6-10%. For me, I’m currently trying to get to 8-9% body fat (should be there by end of next week). I’m going to set my %body fat cap at 12% for my next bulking cycle(I want to do sensible bulking using MAG-10 and myostat, so fat gain is minimized). I will then diet back down to about 7-8% and then set my cap at 11%. And then diet back down to 6-7% and then set my cap at 10%. I think you get the point.
Sure, I'd like to be lean, but I also need some size. I'll find a happy medium somewhere. In my case, I need more size, so I'm willing to start bulking at a higher %BF right now and slowly take my body fat down step by step.
I'm 6'3, 190lbs and 10% body fat right now. End of year, I wan't to be 215 at 8% and end of next year, I'd like to be 235 at less than 8%. Sounds like a lot, but it is very reasonable to me.
Jason - You’re clearly a smart guy so I’ll take your word for it, but the only way your goals sound even remotely reasonable to me is if you’re either new to weightlifting or are planning on using bucketloads of Mag-10 (or, ahem, stronger “supplements”).
Zev you are wrong in your assesment of Jason not being able to reach his goals (or em being impossible without this or that blab blab blab). Tall doods already have like a 30 pound advantage (lets say… 5’10 vs 6’3") and unfortunatly for us its not all muscle (its actually our humongeous genetelia).
Zev - I’ve got a couple of things that I think make this possible.
1) I've finally learned from all my mistakes in my training over the last 8 years where I made little progress.
2) I work in an industry where how I look will affect my ability to get clients. I want to open up my own place (with the help of a few key others).
3) I'm tall (6'3") and I'm really darn small right now. Just 2 months ago, I weighed 205lbs but at about 14% body fat. After I start bulking again, I'll get an instant glycogen water bump to 195, so adding 20lbs of lean body mass over the last 8 months of the year and 20 more next year sounds very reasonable.
4) I have the support of the testosterone forum (Thanks Guys), I'm at my most motivated point know, and I have several email relationships where I can toss back and forth more detailed training questions and share programs and plans.
5) I'm extremely motivated right now.
6) I responded very well to my initial cycle of MAG-10 and I'm quite aways from my genetic ceiling.
7) Myostat???? Maybe?
8) I'll be working at and will have access to some of the nicest gyms in the Bay Area.