I have a general question and would be grateful if anyone could answer:
Is there anything to be gained at all from doing very light squats/deadlifts? Due to degenerative damage in the knees, I’ve today been told that I won’t be doing any sports that involve running (I’m only 24!)
So, to keep my legs from completely wasting away, I have to do whatever I can. However, the therapist was unable to say whether there is any benefit from doing light (30-40%) squats/deads, or whether I can achieve the same with leg curls, press machine etc.
Any advice? And this poses a whole new problem of how to put any muscle on the legs given that I can’t even squat the equivalent of my own bodyweight.
[quote]chimera182 wrote:
Talk to a physical therapist.[/quote]
Have spoken to 3 doctors and 3 private physiotherapists - at a total cost of nearly £800, and they just give me a general sheet of “leg exercises” and seem to know very little/nothing about the benefits of squats etc (“people shouldn’t do heavy squats as they will mess your knees up”)
What kind of degenerative disease do you have if you don’t mind my asking? I tend to think that going that light (20-30% of max weight) won’t do much as far as hypertrophy goes. I wouldn’t give in though, if there is a will there is a way. Depending on your disease condition I would say do what you can. If you find an exercise that absolutely kills you, stay away from it. If you find one that doesn’t hurt and you can load up the weights go for it. The body is a lot more resiliant than people think. And for the most part doctors and physical therapists don’t know a whole lot about weight lifting in general (most of them, some of them are pretty good, you just have to find the right ones). That would be a starting point at least.
Another possible strategy would be to pre-exhaust your legs/lower back with isolation exercises and then do squats/deadlifts, that way at least the stiulation you’re getting is closer to what your muscles can actually handle.
[quote]gremlin1267 wrote:
What kind of degenerative disease do you have if you don’t mind my asking? I tend to think that going that light (20-30% of max weight) won’t do much as far as hypertrophy goes. I wouldn’t give in though, if there is a will there is a way. Depending on your disease condition I would say do what you can. If you find an exercise that absolutely kills you, stay away from it. If you find one that doesn’t hurt and you can load up the weights go for it. The body is a lot more resiliant than people think. And for the most part doctors and physical therapists don’t know a whole lot about weight lifting in general (most of them, some of them are pretty good, you just have to find the right ones). That would be a starting point at least.
Another possible strategy would be to pre-exhaust your legs/lower back with isolation exercises and then do squats/deadlifts, that way at least the stiulation you’re getting is closer to what your muscles can actually handle.
v/r
Gremlin[/quote]
Many thanks for your response. It was very helpful. Well, one of the docs thinks that the gap in the knee joint may be closing and also the therapists have mentioned cartlige damage (the first time it happened was approx ten years ago). I’ve already had surgery once a few years ago. I’ve been told that I’m at a high risk for osteo-arthritis. But I should iterate, this was only a high likelihood, and as of yet, nothing set in stone.
As you say, I try and go as high as I can. Staying hopeful and usually if I add weight, I find that for the next week I can do very little. And when I go back, I have to start lower than before!
From what is sounds like you just need to keep a relatively short range of motion to avoid pain, right? So if you did squat, but only through a small portion of the ROM, using the power rack as a bumper to only go down to a little greater than 90 degrees. A smith machine might work as well. Leg press is generally pretty good for knee problems as well, especially if you can adjust the ROM with the bumpers.
Then I would go with Single legged exercises. Try Smith Machine one legged step ups or DB step ups at a height you can handle (you should be able to go up heavy weight on these). Stiff legged deadlifts shouldn’t be a problem. Rack pulls are great for lower back work and limit your range of motion. Sumo deadlifts might be an option. I don’t even think deadlifts would really hurt you that much since you don’t have such a severe ROM in the knee joint. Glute-ham raises would be an excellent option.
If all those fail, try some strong man lifts like heavy sled drags, prowler pushes, tire flips, all great full body exercises that totally trash your legs. Sometimes you just have to find ways around working with what you got…
[quote]gremlin1267 wrote:
From what is sounds like you just need to keep a relatively short range of motion to avoid pain, right? So if you did squat, but only through a small portion of the ROM, using the power rack as a bumper to only go down to a little greater than 90 degrees. A smith machine might work as well. Leg press is generally pretty good for knee problems as well, especially if you can adjust the ROM with the bumpers.
Then I would go with Single legged exercises. Try Smith Machine one legged step ups or DB step ups at a height you can handle (you should be able to go up heavy weight on these). Stiff legged deadlifts shouldn’t be a problem. Rack pulls are great for lower back work and limit your range of motion. Sumo deadlifts might be an option. I don’t even think deadlifts would really hurt you that much since you don’t have such a severe ROM in the knee joint. Glute-ham raises would be an excellent option.
If all those fail, try some strong man lifts like heavy sled drags, prowler pushes, tire flips, all great full body exercises that totally trash your legs. Sometimes you just have to find ways around working with what you got…
v/r
Gremlin[/quote]
Thanks for the abundant advice gremlin; I appreciate it a great deal and will look to incorporate the ideas into my training. Just have to kick myself out of the mindset that I used to have (ie. invincible) and take real care in what I do.
[quote]chimera182 wrote:
Talk to a physical therapist.[/quote]
Have spoken to 3 doctors and 3 private physiotherapists - at a total cost of nearly Ã?£800, and they just give me a general sheet of “leg exercises” and seem to know very little/nothing about the benefits of squats etc (“people shouldn’t do heavy squats as they will mess your knees up”)
Thanks anyways.[/quote]
That sucks man, other than finding someone who knows what they’re talking about I can’t help.
[quote]gremlin1267 wrote:
From what is sounds like you just need to keep a relatively short range of motion to avoid pain, right? So if you did squat, but only through a small portion of the ROM, using the power rack as a bumper to only go down to a little greater than 90 degrees. A smith machine might work as well. Leg press is generally pretty good for knee problems as well, especially if you can adjust the ROM with the bumpers.
Then I would go with Single legged exercises. Try Smith Machine one legged step ups or DB step ups at a height you can handle (you should be able to go up heavy weight on these). Stiff legged deadlifts shouldn’t be a problem. Rack pulls are great for lower back work and limit your range of motion. Sumo deadlifts might be an option. I don’t even think deadlifts would really hurt you that much since you don’t have such a severe ROM in the knee joint. Glute-ham raises would be an excellent option.
If all those fail, try some strong man lifts like heavy sled drags, prowler pushes, tire flips, all great full body exercises that totally trash your legs. Sometimes you just have to find ways around working with what you got…
v/r
Gremlin[/quote]
These are all great ideas. You could always give cycling a shot too as an adjunct to your leg training.
Find a sports therapist one that works with athletes.
Besides that. Do yoga for a month or two, and do it in classes not something you look up on the net and go try yourself. It will strengthen lenthen and release the tension in the muscles around the knees that will ease the pain. That and fish oil. After a month or two you will be better built to squat and deadlift. Light lifting always helps and as you get stronger you can increase the lifting.
Or you can just look up an old article on here, by cressey I believe I think it was bulletproof knees or something like that.
this is what I would honestly do…depending on where you live, maybe try and go to Eric Cressey’s facility in MASS OR I would go to Poliquin’s website and try to find the closest PICP near you. www.charlespoliquin.com/ForAthletes/FindaCoach.aspx
You can pretty much guarantee you’re going to get someone who truly knows what they are talking about, and if you do, I think they will be able to assess you on a better level, and might even be able to point you in the direction of an appropriate physical therapist close or sorta close by to help you out.
Guys, the advice and concern is awesome. Thanks a lot for everyone’s responses. I’m in London but will try and contact a few of the people you have suggested.
It is a shame that obviously talented doctors/therapists with a sports/athletics focus are hard to find (even when they advertise themselves to sports people)
Cheers fellas.
–NOTE-- Please take care of your bodies! Never take them for granted. What is worse than the pain of injury is the effect it has on the mind! Sitting there watching everyone else discuss damned squats. The jealousy drives you crazy.
So definitely work hard, but more importantly, don’t abuse your body! Its the only one you’ll ever have!
Don’t use the smith machine for squats, use a power rack if it’s available, because the smith machine causes muscles imbalances and shearing forces on the knees.
[quote]ucallthatbass wrote:
Don’t use the smith machine for squats, use a power rack if it’s available, because the smith machine causes muscles imbalances and shearing forces on the knees.
[/quote]
Been doing some reading since you suggested this, and I agree. Cheers for that, since we have a smith that I had considered using.
BTW - what is the general feeling on a leg press type machine? (The ones where the seat slides as you push)
[quote]ucallthatbass wrote:
Don’t use the smith machine for squats, use a power rack if it’s available, because the smith machine causes muscles imbalances and shearing forces on the knees.
My right knee has a lot of cartilage damage that hindered my leg workouts for a long time. Then I found Glucosamine/Chondroitin supplements. 3 pills twice a day, and all of my joints feel 100% better. Please give this supplement a try.
Also, high rep squats will definitely cause hypertrophy. I will squat(or leg press) for 20-50 reps every couple weeks. If your knees can handle this; then you might be on to something.