Struggling with Squats, Knees

Training Injuries
1

Hi new to this forum.

I have got my squats up to 220kg (485lbs), although now the tendons on the front of my quads are really beginning to feel the strain.

I do a nice long warm up, and in the warm up squats (60kg, 132lbs) my knees are really killing me.

however, when I go above 160kg (352lbs) they don’t hurt.

at first I thought this was down to not warming up properly, but now I don’t know.

my question is, if I stop doing 200kg squats and just do leg extensions and leg curls, will I lose mass in my legs?

or will I be able to maintain what I have got?

as I don’t think in the long term my body can cope with the squats

Also I read on pubmed that they have done extensive tests on the depletion of muscle when totally unused (I think they put people in plaster casts) and one thing that stopped or help stopped the depletion was creatine.

Any thoughts?

2

[quote]zultan wrote:
Hi new to this forum.

I have got my squats up to 220kg (485lbs), although now the tendons on the front of my quads are really beginning to feel the strain.

I do a nice long warm up, and in the warm up squats (60kg, 132lbs) my knees are really killing me.

however, when I go above 160kg (352lbs) they don’t hurt.

at first I thought this was down to not warming up properly, but now I don’t know.

my question is, if I stop doing 200kg squats and just do leg extensions and leg curls, will I lose mass in my legs?

or will I be able to maintain what I have got?

as I don’t think in the long term my body can cope with the squats

Also I read on pubmed that they have done extensive tests on the depletion of muscle when totally unused (I think they put people in plaster casts) and one thing that stopped or help stopped the depletion was creatine.

Any thoughts? [/quote]

Ok couple quick thoughts,

Nice squat numbers first off.

Second, yes squatting is extremely tough on our bodies and it sounds like you have a case of patellar tendinopathy, you should get some recommendations with someone familiar with this condition where they can properly show you how to perform some eccentric exercises (if appropriate), proper active and passive stretching, as well as look at your technique. In general if your overall level of general preparation was lacking when initiating your squat program you tend to run into these types of overuse problems.

Will you lose mass on the quads/hamstrings? It depends, only xyz works for x amount of time before the body is no longer stimulated by the same training intensity. In general, the more experienced we are with lifting the closer we have to lift near our % max to provide adequate training stimulus. However, there are exceptions such as when you switch blocks in training and focus more on sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (high reps, less rest, slow eccentric/concentric). The answer is not as black/white as you would like to hear im sure. In short, it will work for a period of time before eventually stalling and potentially causing decrease in mass.

Creatine, has many various benefits. It generally allows us to extend the short burst energy systems (creatine phosphate). In real world terms it helps you get more reps, which in turn can help sustain mass.

3

[quote]zultan wrote:
Hi new to this forum.

I have got my squats up to 220kg (485lbs), although now the tendons on the front of my quads are really beginning to feel the strain.

I do a nice long warm up, and in the warm up squats (60kg, 132lbs) my knees are really killing me.

however, when I go above 160kg (352lbs) they don’t hurt.

at first I thought this was down to not warming up properly, but now I don’t know.

my question is, if I stop doing 200kg squats and just do leg extensions and leg curls, will I lose mass in my legs?

or will I be able to maintain what I have got?

as I don’t think in the long term my body can cope with the squats

Also I read on pubmed that they have done extensive tests on the depletion of muscle when totally unused (I think they put people in plaster casts) and one thing that stopped or help stopped the depletion was creatine.

Any thoughts? [/quote]

Don’t know if you would lose mass, but definitely strength as the movements are entirely different.

I don’t squat as much as you, but had similar knee pain when warming up. Knees would kill me through light warm up sets, then pain-free when reaching working weight. One thing that helped me was warming up with a trap bar (or dead-squat bar). I started doing 3-4 light sets before every workout to try and improve that lift (there was an article here on tnation about doing a lagging lift every day for 6-8 weeks to improve). I found that doing these before squats, I had no pain anymore when starting the squat session, or doing squats period. Just a thought…it works for me.

Oh, and I supplement creatine everyday by the way. Don’t know if it stops muscle depletion like you asked (doubt it), but definitely adds to energy during workouts.

4

I’ve battled knee pain off and on for years. Two things I’ve recently tried that have really helped me are Joe DeFranco’s Limber 11 followed by 10-20 goblet squats with a band wrapped around my knees. I find that the first few Goblet Squats are not totally pain-free, but after rep 5 or 6, all the pain is gone. The pain does not come back after switching from goblet squats to back squats. Maybe that’s worth a try.

5

yeah, sorry, what I was trying to say is, they have done tests and say that it can help sustain mass on muscles that are totally inactive, never mind under training. (unless I read it wrong, please correct).

see below:

either way, I wouldn’t like to rely on it.
as im sure most pencil necks would go hammer it at the gym then take creatine for the next 10 years to keep what they’ve got.

6

[quote]Grove wrote:

I started doing 3-4 light sets before every workout to try and improve that lift (there was an article here on tnation about doing a lagging lift every day for 6-8 weeks to improve). I found that doing these before squats, I had no pain anymore when starting the squat session, or doing squats period. Just a thought…it works for me. [/quote]

yeah I do pretty much. (or think I do)

I go on the bike for about 10 mins.
then I swing my legs about for a good 5 mins haha.
then I do some body weight squats - 12 reps
then 60kg 12 reps
then 100kg 10 reps
then 140kg 10 reps
then 180kg 8 reps
then 220kg 6/7 reps

I was wondering, if being 6ft 4" had much to do with it too? I read on here that us taller guys could actually benefit more from doing leg extensions and curls due to the distance of the fulcrum.

the main bulk of my muscle on my legs is from the middle of my thigh to my hip, not much around my knees, which is just genetic I presume.

7

[quote]zultan wrote:

[quote]Grove wrote:

I started doing 3-4 light sets before every workout to try and improve that lift (there was an article here on tnation about doing a lagging lift every day for 6-8 weeks to improve). I found that doing these before squats, I had no pain anymore when starting the squat session, or doing squats period. Just a thought…it works for me. [/quote]

yeah I do pretty much. (or think I do)

I go on the bike for about 10 mins.
then I swing my legs about for a good 5 mins haha.
then I do some body weight squats - 12 reps
then 60kg 12 reps
then 100kg 10 reps
then 140kg 10 reps
then 180kg 8 reps
then 220kg 6/7 reps

I was wondering, if being 6ft 4" had much to do with it too? I read on here that us taller guys could actually benefit more from doing leg extensions and curls due to the distance of the fulcrum.

the main bulk of my muscle on my legs is from the middle of my thigh to my hip, not much around my knees, which is just genetic I presume. [/quote]

I am 6’5. And I do a similar type warm-up as you described…but for some reason the trap-bar deadlift, doing light warm up sets (225lbs, 4 sets of 5) warm my knees and legs up differently than bike, etc… I am able to go straight from that to about mid-warm up weight in squats with no pain. Don’t know why… If you’ve never used a trap bar before may want to give it a try. Also would supplement your leg development if you chose to exclude squats for a while.

8

[quote]Grove wrote:

I am 6’5. And I do a similar type warm-up as you described…but for some reason the trap-bar deadlift, doing light warm up sets (225lbs, 4 sets of 5) warm my knees and legs up differently than bike, etc… I am able to go straight from that to about mid-warm up weight in squats with no pain. Don’t know why… If you’ve never used a trap bar before may want to give it a try. Also would supplement your leg development if you chose to exclude squats for a while.[/quote]

I do full body W/O’s so I will do deadlift before squats, see if that helps at all. yeah about every 6/7 weeks I have a week off or two.

9

I’ve experienced the same type of issues/pain in my right knee during squats, particularly during lighter warm-ups. I’m not as tall (6’0") and have quite short legs so I don’t think my anatomy is my problem. I’ve just laid off doing squats almost completely for the last 2 months and have noticed the pain and joint noises have just about gone.

I know it sounds like blasphemy to not do squats for an extended period but, it’s really helped me. I guess it’s important to view a lay-off as a short blip in the entire length of a lifting career. Also, the trap bar deadlift idea is a great one. Not identical to squats but, they hit the quads a fair bit.

10

[quote]zultan wrote:

[quote]Grove wrote:

I am 6’5. And I do a similar type warm-up as you described…but for some reason the trap-bar deadlift, doing light warm up sets (225lbs, 4 sets of 5) warm my knees and legs up differently than bike, etc… I am able to go straight from that to about mid-warm up weight in squats with no pain. Don’t know why… If you’ve never used a trap bar before may want to give it a try. Also would supplement your leg development if you chose to exclude squats for a while.[/quote]

I do full body W/O’s so I will do deadlift before squats, see if that helps at all. yeah about every 6/7 weeks I have a week off or two.[/quote]

Just want to make sure you understand i’m talking about trap bar deads, not conventional (for me). Big difference in the two in regards to legs. Can’t get much more full body than using a trap bar IMO so don’t really understand that comment. Anyway, good luck.

11

Try flat soled shoes and a safety squat bar if you have access

12

update:

just in case anyone is interested.

my knees are completely fine now.

I have had a week off work, (not a week off from the gym) and everything seems back to normal.

I have a very active job climbing up and down ladders carrying things, and im putting it down to not having enough rest.

thanks for the advice.