An open call to all fellow anatomy and exercise science friendly Tmembers…
Is there any reason why there are such a big incidence of pec tears during benching in comparison to shoulder/tricep/lat tears especially if powerlifting style is supposed to deemphasize the use of the pecs?
My guess is it is the degree of stretch combined with the degree of involvement in the exercise. The pecs are stretched a lot in a bench no matter how you position your elbows and they still do the brunt of the work on the way up. Plus we (as men) tend to hammer the bench probably more than we should so the muscle can get overtrained and tight. Finally remember steroid use significantly increases the chance of a blowing out a large muscle as it increases stength faster than the tendon.
The stretched position sounds like a valid point- 99% of tears occur during the eccetric portion of the exercise.
It’s just a question I’ve been wondering for a while, especially since Dave Tate and Louie seem to downplay the pecs’ role in benching and yet it’s the most commonly torn muscle during the exercise.
[quote]IronAbrams wrote:
The stretched position sounds like a valid point- 99% of tears occur during the eccetric portion of the exercise.
It’s just a question I’ve been wondering for a while, especially since Dave Tate and Louie seem to downplay the pecs’ role in benching and yet it’s the most commonly torn muscle during the exercise.[/quote]
They also downplay the quads role in squatting, and what’s been happening alot lately?
Lol, too true.
[quote]IronAbrams wrote:
The stretched position sounds like a valid point- 99% of tears occur during the eccetric portion of the exercise.
It’s just a question I’ve been wondering for a while, especially since Dave Tate and Louie seem to downplay the pecs’ role in benching and yet it’s the most commonly torn muscle during the exercise.[/quote]
Not necessarily true. I’ve slightly torn my left pec and strained it twice more ( strains are technically tears btw) and it been on the concentric every time.
I strongly believe pec tears come because it’s an easy area to tear. you will get banged up over years of lifting, developing myofascial restrictions. And what muscles seems to stretch the most during the bench? It’s just a matter of leverage and if you lift long enough something will happen to you in my opinion.
I don’t really think working the pecs more will decrease this. It might make it worse. you need a balance in the scapular retractors, internal rotators and external rotators for good shoulder health.
Research at Indiana University found that cross-sectional area of the subscapularis is the best predictor of powerlifting performance, believe it or not.
If you’re getting that much hypertrophy of the subscapularis, it’s doing a lot of work - and for a small muscle. Ask any manual therapist, and they’ll tell you that subscap is always balled up - and frequently shuts down due to repetitive microtrauma.
Shut subscapularis down, and pec major will work overtime as an internal rotator of the humerus. Reference Shirley Sahrmann’s stuff; if you see an strained/tight muscle, look for an underactive synergist.
You’ll also get a humeral anterior glide, and additional tightness/restrictions on infraspinatus/teres minor.
[quote]Eric Cressey wrote:
Research at Indiana University found that cross-sectional area of the subscapularis is the best predictor of powerlifting performance, believe it or not.
If you’re getting that much hypertrophy of the subscapularis, it’s doing a lot of work - and for a small muscle. Ask any manual therapist, and they’ll tell you that subscap is always balled up - and frequently shuts down due to repetitive microtrauma.
Shut subscapularis down, and pec major will work overtime as an internal rotator of the humerus. Reference Shirley Sahrmann’s stuff; if you see an strained/tight muscle, look for an underactive synergist.
You’ll also get a humeral anterior glide, and additional tightness/restrictions on infraspinatus/teres minor.
www.EricCressey.Blogspot.com[/quote]
Yep, anyone I treat with tight pecs has an issue in the subscapularis.
[quote]Eric Cressey wrote:
Research at Indiana University found that cross-sectional area of the subscapularis is the best predictor of powerlifting performance, believe it or not.
If you’re getting that much hypertrophy of the subscapularis, it’s doing a lot of work - and for a small muscle. Ask any manual therapist, and they’ll tell you that subscap is always balled up - and frequently shuts down due to repetitive microtrauma.
Shut subscapularis down, and pec major will work overtime as an internal rotator of the humerus. Reference Shirley Sahrmann’s stuff; if you see an strained/tight muscle, look for an underactive synergist.
You’ll also get a humeral anterior glide, and additional tightness/restrictions on infraspinatus/teres minor.
www.EricCressey.Blogspot.com[/quote]
I feel honored now :). That was the exact answer I was looking for too.
How important of a target muscle do you consider the chest to be in a powerlifting style raw bench?
Even raw, the pecs are fourth after the delts, tris and back.
Then again if you fail in the first six inches off the chest raw then your issue is the pecs.
So does this mean that doing internal rotations is counterproductive to preventing pec tears?
[quote]Traps59 wrote:
So does this mean that doing internal rotations is counterproductive to preventing pec tears?[/quote]
They may not have as profound an effect on preventing pec tears as you previously thought, but they’re still great for keeping your shoulders healthy and injury free.
Also, the lats don’t stretch when lowering the bar, they contract.
[quote]Traps59 wrote:
So does this mean that doing internal rotations is counterproductive to preventing pec tears?[/quote]
I don’t think you would hurt yourself if they were in moderation,. Most pec tears come from muscles that got to tight and the stress finds an opening, tearing the easiest place, which would be the pecs in this case.
Eric is right with the subscapularis. I find adhesions in most subscaps in the weightlifting guys I treat. Long term changes in movement pattern throw the load in a improper or disproportionate way.
Think of it as this way. we have ten guys to dig ditches on our road crew. 1 gets sick, but it’s no big deal. the flu hits another 2, not things are gettign tougher on the remaining 7. 3 more go down and now we’re pulling ot, working 16 hours a day at a physically tough job. we all strain out backs, herniate discs and go out on worker’s compensation.
The we get sleezy lawyers and say we can’t ever work again. Just kidding on the last part. You can see there’s often a progression that you either won’t see happening or couldn’t see happening. Eric or myself might do well at the preventative stuff, but even we will get hurt from time to time.
Heavy weight get to everyone eventually.
tom63
I don’t wanna misinterpret your words here. You are in no way shape or form suggesting guys not do external rotation exercises are you? Without doubt or question if an antagonist muscle is tight it can lead to problems with its counter part. I promise you this, on any given week I perform more reps and sets for my external rotators than I do for my pecs per se.
If you suggest treatment for tightness, adhesions and scar tissue than by all means I’m hearing and agreeing with you. Just seeking clarification.
[quote]sapasion wrote:
tom63
I don’t wanna misinterpret your words here. You are in no way shape or form suggesting guys not do external rotation exercises are you? Without doubt or question if an antagonist muscle is tight it can lead to problems with its counter part. I promise you this, on any given week I perform more reps and sets for my external rotators than I do for my pecs per se.
If you suggest treatment for tightness, adhesions and scar tissue than by all means I’m hearing and agreeing with you. Just seeking clarification.[/quote]
You should definitely do external rotation work. As for tight, I’m talking about myofascial restriction stuff that many people will not notice until it’s to late. You’d be surprised on how tight some small muscles can be. this leads to that cascade of stress that I mentioned.
People often don’t realize how tight areas are until it’s to late. Think about it, how many people know they have a subscap issue? Many weight trainers do and don’t even know it.
tom63,
So how do you know or find out if you have a subscap issue?
Also, how do you perform any soft tissue work on the subscap since it’s on the anterior side of the scapula?
[quote]Traps59 wrote:
tom63,
So how do you know or find out if you have a subscap issue?
Also, how do you perform any soft tissue work on the subscap since it’s on the anterior side of the scapula?[/quote]
You come to see me, hahaha! actually, I would find a good manual therapist. As you said, the location makes it hard to, stretch or work on this yourself.
Good way of looking at it, if you have anterior shoulder pain or impingment, you have some issue with the subscapularis. You can try to stretch it by lying on your back, put your arm out to the side, then move your hand up towards your head with the arm bent about 90 degrees. this will give you some stretch which might be helpful.
Also make sure you stretch your rear delts and traps
[quote]Hanley wrote:
IronAbrams wrote:
The stretched position sounds like a valid point- 99% of tears occur during the eccetric portion of the exercise.
It’s just a question I’ve been wondering for a while, especially since Dave Tate and Louie seem to downplay the pecs’ role in benching and yet it’s the most commonly torn muscle during the exercise.
They also downplay the quads role in squatting, and what’s been happening alot lately?[/quote]
Dave Tate & Louie downplay the role of pecs in (their) powerlifting style of benching, I believe most tears occur with flared arms.
[quote]tom63 wrote:
You should definitely do external rotation work. As for tight, I’m talking about myofascial restriction stuff that many people will not notice until it’s to late. You’d be surprised on how tight some small muscles can be. this leads to that cascade of stress that I mentioned.
People often don’t realize how tight areas are until it’s to late. Think about it, how many people know they have a subscap issue? Many weight trainers do and don’t even know it.
[/quote]
Good stuff tom thanks. Yeah I get ART done every 4-5 weeks as a habit. I always get pec/delt work and always some for that external rotator complex. If anything my ART guy says my teres minor usually gets the tightest of my four cuff muscles. I just know as you say that about once a month I’m in to see him for maintenance; not just the cuff mind you but everything