[quote]Roual wrote:
The links to video sites lead to pages saying the video has been removed due to it being copyright material.
Anyone got a link that hasn’t been removed yet? (or better yet, one hosted in a foreign country that CAN’T be removed, fucking copyright).[/quote]
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
they need to give Kimbo someone decent to fight so he can prove himself to all the doubters.[/quote]
If there is something that drives me crazy about MMA fans desires, it’s this notion that everyone needs to instantly prove themselves against the top tier. People wonder why it’s so hard to find good belt contendors in MMA at times, it’s because guys that should be progressively groomed and tested against various styles by beatable guys get thrown on the rocks.
People bitch and moan endlessly about the way Roger Huerta was raised up in the UFC, but in my opinion Zuffa should get patted on the back for actually properly bringing along a good prospect to a level where he’s now ready to face the top 10 of that division.
I say give Kimbo another give me, a guy like James Thompson, then test him against a good wrestler and then a mediocre submission guy. At that point we should have a clearer picture of where he can go. Putting Brock against Mir was a special case where a prospect could look great in losing, and in losing could propel another fighter into title contention which they need so badly.
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
they need to give Kimbo someone decent to fight so he can prove himself to all the doubters.
If there is something that drives me crazy about MMA fans desires, it’s this notion that everyone needs to instantly prove themselves against the top tier. People wonder why it’s so hard to find good belt contendors in MMA at times, it’s because guys that should be progressively groomed and tested against various styles by beatable guys get thrown on the rocks.
People bitch and moan endlessly about the way Roger Huerta was raised up in the UFC, but in my opinion Zuffa should get patted on the back for actually properly bringing along a good prospect to a level where he’s now ready to face the top 10 of that division.
I say give Kimbo another give me, a guy like James Thompson, then test him against a good wrestler and then a mediocre submission guy. At that point we should have a clearer picture of where he can go. Putting Brock against Mir was a special case where a prospect could look great in losing, and in losing could propel another fighter into title contention which they need so badly.[/quote]
Dude, you need to start your own MMA website, or at least write contributions to an existing one. You’re too fucking insightful to be posting on a message board.
Of course I agree 100%. Boxing was big because they groomed fighters to be stars instead of tossing them to the lions right out of the gate. MMA should do the same. Kimbo has the toughness, heart, and atleticism to be a complete package. Just give him time.
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
If there is something that drives me crazy about MMA fans desires, it’s this notion that everyone needs to instantly prove themselves against the top tier. People wonder why it’s so hard to find good belt contendors in MMA at times, it’s because guys that should be progressively groomed and tested against various styles by beatable guys get thrown on the rocks.
People bitch and moan endlessly about the way Roger Huerta was raised up in the UFC, but in my opinion Zuffa should get patted on the back for actually properly bringing along a good prospect to a level where he’s now ready to face the top 10 of that division.
I say give Kimbo another give me, a guy like James Thompson, then test him against a good wrestler and then a mediocre submission guy. At that point we should have a clearer picture of where he can go. Putting Brock against Mir was a special case where a prospect could look great in losing, and in losing could propel another fighter into title contention which they need so badly.[/quote]
Wow. Solid post.
I think that card Saturday night was one of the most entertaining I have watched in months.
Looking forward to March 1, though. That card is rounding out nicely.
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
If there is something that drives me crazy about MMA fans desires, it’s this notion that everyone needs to instantly prove themselves against the top tier.
[/quote]
I don’t mean to be the guy always arguing, but while I completely agree that you can’t just throw a new contender against veterans who are still at peak shape, I also do not whatsoever think that we should be feeding fighters sure wins. I don’t care how good their prospects are. I know it’s done in boxing, maybe I’d feel different if I were a boxer.
If you have an up and coming fighter showing prospects then why not put him against another guy in the same situation? Am I being naive? I see plenty of talent out there, and don’t think we need to shape fighters carefully letting them win some fights and fight easier opponents. They should be doing tat on their own, like I said. They should have been training their asses off and fighting locally and pursuing every chance they got.
[quote]forkknifespoon wrote:
Donut62 wrote:
If there is something that drives me crazy about MMA fans desires, it’s this notion that everyone needs to instantly prove themselves against the top tier.
I don’t mean to be the guy always arguing, but while I completely agree that you can’t just throw a new contender against veterans who are still at peak shape, I also do not whatsoever think that we should be feeding fighters sure wins. I don’t care how good their prospects are. I know it’s done in boxing, maybe I’d feel different if I were a boxer.
If you have an up and coming fighter showing prospects then why not put him against another guy in the same situation? Am I being naive? I see plenty of talent out there, and don’t think we need to shape fighters carefully letting them win some fights and fight easier opponents. They should be doing tat on their own, like I said. They should have been training their asses off and fighting locally and pursuing every chance they got. [/quote]
First off, I’ll gladly address arguments as well composed and written as yours all day long and think it’s great that people think differently. Onto my thoughts on the issue:
At some point a great prospect of a fighter should breakthrough by facing a guy he is perceived as being “on par” with. Huerta-Guida was such a case. You shouldn’t be making those 50/50 fights all the time, though. The consequences are that one fighter who is probably roughly the equal of the winner gets shuffled back and you lose a top contendor for 2 to 3 fights.
Fighters should be shaped and molded though, as all athletes are. MMA is vying to be a professional sport viewed as the equal of the NFL, NBA, whatever. In those sports, there is distinct and clear cut pattern of progression that all players follow. When an NFL player steps onto the field, everyone knows and expects that he has 8-10 years of progressively faster more complicated football under his belt and has truly earned to be on the big stage. When a boxer walks into a title fight, everyone knows that he has had 20 some fights against 20 some progressively more difficult opponents and has advanced his craft to the point that he earned the recognition and respect to fight for something meaningful.
In MMA, this should also be the case. However, due to the pro wrestling model of the promotions, people with “hype” behind them seem to transcend this process and immediately get tossed into the deep end because people’s impatient curiousity makes them open their wallets to the immediate gratification of an “ass whuppin”.
I’m not asking for “give me” fights. We don’t need to see worthless bullshit like Tito Ortiz-Ken Shamrock II or III. I’m asking that good prospects be tested stylistically to give them the experience that they need. In retrospect, it might appear to be a give me fight, because if the prospect is legit and becomes a great fighter people will look back with 20/20 hindsight and say “Whoa why did he fight that guy”, when at the time people had no confirmation he would someday become as he great as he did. The chaff is seperated from the wheat, and for every Roger Huerta that bulldozes his way to the top there are guys like Antonio Silva who you have to take a step back from when they get KTFO by an Eric Pelee who they should have stomped.
What I think you are kind of saying, and I agree with, is that we shouldn’t be seeing progression fights for raw talent on a major MMA card like EliteXC.
However, due to Kimbo’s unique persona and cult following he brings with him into MMA, no promoter can pass up any second of Kimbo coverage that they can offer. People are still treating him like a freak show, they just want to see him brawl. Kimbo however is really taking this seriously, and wants to be a true competitive MMA heavyweight. People need to realize this, and deal with the fact that he is going to have to polish some cans to get himself ready to face anyone in the likes of the top 10. And they will have to watch because they want to see him so bad. Luckily, the HW is shallow, and the process will be much shorter than in a division like WW where guys like Karo Parysian are still struggling to get a title shot.
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
they need to give Kimbo someone decent to fight so he can prove himself to all the doubters.
If there is something that drives me crazy about MMA fans desires, it’s this notion that everyone needs to instantly prove themselves against the top tier. People wonder why it’s so hard to find good belt contendors in MMA at times, it’s because guys that should be progressively groomed and tested against various styles by beatable guys get thrown on the rocks.
People bitch and moan endlessly about the way Roger Huerta was raised up in the UFC, but in my opinion Zuffa should get patted on the back for actually properly bringing along a good prospect to a level where he’s now ready to face the top 10 of that division.
I say give Kimbo another give me, a guy like James Thompson, then test him against a good wrestler and then a mediocre submission guy. At that point we should have a clearer picture of where he can go. Putting Brock against Mir was a special case where a prospect could look great in losing, and in losing could propel another fighter into title contention which they need so badly.[/quote]
Agreed.
Fighters have very frail mentalities… it’s not like any other sport around. When you are someone who makes your living with your fists, you have to be absolutely sure of yourself every time you step in the ring (or octagon).
When you take a great prospect and put him up against someone who seriously outclasses him, you’re garaunteeing not only that your boy is going to get fucked up right now, but he’s also going to be fucked up for a while because of the nature of losing a fight.
If it ruins your confidence to quickly… well, some guys can’t recover from that.
You’ll see that boxers fight 20 journeymen before they come anywhere close to a title shot. UFC would be wise to start that same type of “farm system”, if you will. It produces better, more solid fighters.
In my ideal world, and someday hope for MMA, is that a worldwide regulation body, much like the SHOOTO system, is in place. Promoters would hold MMA fights under the SHOOTO-like system, and other than paying the fighters and hyping the fight and organizing everything would have little impact on the sports rules and governing system. I propose a class break up like:
Class D - Smoker level competition. 1, 5 minute round, head gear and shin pads, no ground and pound.
Class C - Amatuer level MMA. Limited ground and pound rules, 2, 5 minute rounds.
Class B - Semi-pro. 2, 5 minute rounds, full MMA rules.
Class A - Pro. 3 or 5, 5 minute rounds. Full rules.
A fighter has to earn a liscence to compete in each class, granted by the regulatory body after review of a fighters accomplishments and performance and general ability to demonstrate the comptency required to fight at that level. Obviously fighers coming from sucessful backgrounds in sports that carry over well into MMA, like a black belt in BJJ who won the ADCC, could jump right into Class B.
On a PPV event, the broadcast fights would all be Class A calibur, the undercard low level Class A and good Class B guys. Programs like TUF and Ultimate Fight Nights would showcase top Class B fighters looking to make the jump, and maybe a few Class A guys thrown in there. That’s my dream, at least. Thoughts?
[quote]shizen wrote:
michael2507 wrote:
sed26 wrote:
looking at related videos showed tank benching 600lbs wtf I would have never guessed that looking at his physique. Anyways that was like a boxing match more then MMA fight, how is kimbos ground game been tested so far? Not sure why he isn’t in boxing since that seems to be his strong point.
Also hits to back of head were really unfair match was lost after that hard to recover from it. [/quote]
The 600lb video was one of those fake videos out there. I believe he even stated it was. he said the best he has ever done was 500 and if you have seen the way he does 500 400lbs is more like what he can do.
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
What I think you are kind of saying, and I agree with, is that we shouldn’t be seeing progression fights for raw talent on a major MMA card like EliteXC.
However, due to Kimbo’s unique persona and cult following he brings with him into MMA, no promoter can pass up any second of Kimbo coverage that they can offer. People are still treating him like a freak show, they just want to see him brawl. Kimbo however is really taking this seriously, and wants to be a true competitive MMA heavyweight. People need to realize this, and deal with the fact that he is going to have to polish some cans to get himself ready to face anyone in the likes of the top 10. And they will have to watch because they want to see him so bad. Luckily, the HW is shallow, and the process will be much shorter than in a division like WW where guys like Karo Parysian are still struggling to get a title shot.[/quote]
Absolutely spot on.
It would be interesting to see some sort of class system with fighters having to become licensed to fight in the higher classes. In my mind that kind of already existed just in the fact that I feel fighters should really train for a long time and have a decent amount of fights under their belt before they even approach larger leagues. The Illinois/Iowa (ilowa) area where I live has so many grassroots and even smaller fighting establishments. It is very easy for anyone to get some training under their belt, and a couple of real fights no matter how amateur. There are even pretty honorable codes of conduct. A year and a half ago I was going to compete in “Battle in the Ring” a small fighting competition at a local sports center, and a couple guys from my gym asked me if I would bow out of the competition. We train at Champion’s gym (Miletich Fighting Systems), and they said it’s a little too amateur of an organization. If I lose I would potentially make a bad name for the gym and if I win people could whine about me not belonging there because I’m an upper level fighter (which I wasn’t).
I’m rambling, but I do understand that Kimbo is training very seriously. Bas probably wouldn’t have it any other way. I still thought the fight didn’t belong where it was and especially after him having only two actual MMA bouts.
P.S. I changed tenses a lot in this post, you’ll have to live with it, I’m tired and cold.
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
I say give Kimbo another give me, a guy like James Thompson, then test him against a good wrestler and then a mediocre submission guy.[/quote]
I agree with everything you said except the James Thompson part. I think Kimbo has proven he is capable of smashing mediocre brawlers. It’s time to let him move on to mediocre grapplers or to test him against a higher class of brawler.
Honestly, what would be the point of feeding the glass chinned Colossus to Kimbo? We all know how that fight would go. James starts out with a gong and dash, throws a few haymakers, Kimbo clips him with a counter punch, and James drops like a ton of bricks.
Personally, I would like to see Kimbo versus the guy who KO’d Thompson, Brett Rogers. Rogers is still a relative neophyte (only 6 pro fights), so it’s not like it would be a huge experience mismatch. Also, unlike the guys Kimbo has smashed thus far, Rogers is actually dangerous and would pose a real threat to Kimbo.
Unfortunately, I fully expect Kimbo to continue his tour of the MMA seniors circuit. Might as well send him over to the YAMMA pit of death to destroy all the old school NHB guys.
Has anyone else uh, accidentally come across pornography on the internet and seen Kimbo lurking around at these pool parties they have where they ply 18-25 year old girls with booze and encourage them to take their clothes off?
Also isn`t it true that he spent some time in the slammer?
[quote]Steve4192 wrote:
Donut62 wrote:
I say give Kimbo another give me, a guy like James Thompson, then test him against a good wrestler and then a mediocre submission guy.
I agree with everything you said except the James Thompson part. I think Kimbo has proven he is capable of smashing mediocre brawlers. It’s time to let him move on to mediocre grapplers or to test him against a higher class of brawler.
[/quote]
Actually I thought James Thompson had won. I didn’t actually watch that fight. But regardless, you’re right in that he probably wouldn’t be the best choice in any case. Their roster is pretty thin. Perhaps a Paul Buenotello might fit the bill if they want to get froggier than Bret Rogers.
[quote]Kalle wrote:
Roual wrote:
The links to video sites lead to pages saying the video has been removed due to it being copyright material.
Anyone got a link that hasn’t been removed yet? (or better yet, one hosted in a foreign country that CAN’T be removed, fucking copyright).
[/quote]
(I’ll read the rest of the posts later)
Thanks man, really shouldn’t watch this at work, but what the hell 
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
Actually I thought James Thompson had won. I didn’t actually watch that fight. [/quote]
I highly recommend you watch. One of the most brutal KOs I have seen recently. That last left hook was filthy.
[quote]deanosumo wrote:
Has anyone else uh, accidentally come across pornography on the internet and seen Kimbo lurking around at these pool parties they have where they ply 18-25 year old girls with booze and encourage them to take their clothes off?
[/quote]
I’ve seen Kimbo in several Inside the VIP pornos from Reality Kings. He is usually just standing there holding a bottle of booze and looking intimidating as all hell.
That is a great website, by the way.
Definitely agree with all of the above regarding building fighters up more. But there is a fine line. I don’t want to see padded records like you see all too often in boxing.
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
forkknifespoon wrote:
Donut62 wrote:
If there is something that drives me crazy about MMA fans desires, it’s this notion that everyone needs to instantly prove themselves against the top tier.
I don’t mean to be the guy always arguing, but while I completely agree that you can’t just throw a new contender against veterans who are still at peak shape, I also do not whatsoever think that we should be feeding fighters sure wins. I don’t care how good their prospects are. I know it’s done in boxing, maybe I’d feel different if I were a boxer.
If you have an up and coming fighter showing prospects then why not put him against another guy in the same situation? Am I being naive? I see plenty of talent out there, and don’t think we need to shape fighters carefully letting them win some fights and fight easier opponents. They should be doing tat on their own, like I said. They should have been training their asses off and fighting locally and pursuing every chance they got.
First off, I’ll gladly address arguments as well composed and written as yours all day long and think it’s great that people think differently. Onto my thoughts on the issue:
At some point a great prospect of a fighter should breakthrough by facing a guy he is perceived as being “on par” with. Huerta-Guida was such a case. You shouldn’t be making those 50/50 fights all the time, though. The consequences are that one fighter who is probably roughly the equal of the winner gets shuffled back and you lose a top contendor for 2 to 3 fights.
Fighters should be shaped and molded though, as all athletes are. MMA is vying to be a professional sport viewed as the equal of the NFL, NBA, whatever. In those sports, there is distinct and clear cut pattern of progression that all players follow. When an NFL player steps onto the field, everyone knows and expects that he has 8-10 years of progressively faster more complicated football under his belt and has truly earned to be on the big stage. When a boxer walks into a title fight, everyone knows that he has had 20 some fights against 20 some progressively more difficult opponents and has advanced his craft to the point that he earned the recognition and respect to fight for something meaningful.
In MMA, this should also be the case. However, due to the pro wrestling model of the promotions, people with “hype” behind them seem to transcend this process and immediately get tossed into the deep end because people’s impatient curiousity makes them open their wallets to the immediate gratification of an “ass whuppin”.
I’m not asking for “give me” fights. We don’t need to see worthless bullshit like Tito Ortiz-Ken Shamrock II or III. I’m asking that good prospects be tested stylistically to give them the experience that they need. In retrospect, it might appear to be a give me fight, because if the prospect is legit and becomes a great fighter people will look back with 20/20 hindsight and say “Whoa why did he fight that guy”, when at the time people had no confirmation he would someday become as he great as he did. The chaff is seperated from the wheat, and for every Roger Huerta that bulldozes his way to the top there are guys like Antonio Silva who you have to take a step back from when they get KTFO by an Eric Pelee who they should have stomped.
What I think you are kind of saying, and I agree with, is that we shouldn’t be seeing progression fights for raw talent on a major MMA card like EliteXC.
However, due to Kimbo’s unique persona and cult following he brings with him into MMA, no promoter can pass up any second of Kimbo coverage that they can offer. People are still treating him like a freak show, they just want to see him brawl. Kimbo however is really taking this seriously, and wants to be a true competitive MMA heavyweight. People need to realize this, and deal with the fact that he is going to have to polish some cans to get himself ready to face anyone in the likes of the top 10. And they will have to watch because they want to see him so bad. Luckily, the HW is shallow, and the process will be much shorter than in a division like WW where guys like Karo Parysian are still struggling to get a title shot.[/quote]
ditto on what the others said about your knowledgeable and insightful posts, i enjoy your input and learn a lot from reading your posts.
i love mma, but i know more about boxing. you are correct about the need for mma guys to be brought up more slowly.
what mma lacks (because of its new-ness) is a good population of opponents and journeymen. in boxing, you take a prospect and put in in with opponents, guys who know the game but are basically there to be beat, represent little to no threat, just to get your fighter some exposure and real ring experience. after a while, you put in in with a journeyman, somebody who will test him,is a threat to win, but is no longer a contender or a world beater.
there is not a whole lot of people in mma that qualify as “journeymen” i dare to say.
for example, in UFC/Pride, who would qualify as a journeyman in the HW division, that is, no tomato-can, but not a huge threat to a prospect/contender?
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
Donut62 wrote:
forkknifespoon wrote:
Donut62 wrote:
If there is something that drives me crazy about MMA fans desires, it’s this notion that everyone needs to instantly prove themselves against the top tier.
I don’t mean to be the guy always arguing, but while I completely agree that you can’t just throw a new contender against veterans who are still at peak shape, I also do not whatsoever think that we should be feeding fighters sure wins. I don’t care how good their prospects are. I know it’s done in boxing, maybe I’d feel different if I were a boxer.
If you have an up and coming fighter showing prospects then why not put him against another guy in the same situation? Am I being naive? I see plenty of talent out there, and don’t think we need to shape fighters carefully letting them win some fights and fight easier opponents. They should be doing tat on their own, like I said. They should have been training their asses off and fighting locally and pursuing every chance they got.
First off, I’ll gladly address arguments as well composed and written as yours all day long and think it’s great that people think differently. Onto my thoughts on the issue:
At some point a great prospect of a fighter should breakthrough by facing a guy he is perceived as being “on par” with. Huerta-Guida was such a case. You shouldn’t be making those 50/50 fights all the time, though. The consequences are that one fighter who is probably roughly the equal of the winner gets shuffled back and you lose a top contendor for 2 to 3 fights.
Fighters should be shaped and molded though, as all athletes are. MMA is vying to be a professional sport viewed as the equal of the NFL, NBA, whatever. In those sports, there is distinct and clear cut pattern of progression that all players follow. When an NFL player steps onto the field, everyone knows and expects that he has 8-10 years of progressively faster more complicated football under his belt and has truly earned to be on the big stage. When a boxer walks into a title fight, everyone knows that he has had 20 some fights against 20 some progressively more difficult opponents and has advanced his craft to the point that he earned the recognition and respect to fight for something meaningful.
In MMA, this should also be the case. However, due to the pro wrestling model of the promotions, people with “hype” behind them seem to transcend this process and immediately get tossed into the deep end because people’s impatient curiousity makes them open their wallets to the immediate gratification of an “ass whuppin”.
I’m not asking for “give me” fights. We don’t need to see worthless bullshit like Tito Ortiz-Ken Shamrock II or III. I’m asking that good prospects be tested stylistically to give them the experience that they need. In retrospect, it might appear to be a give me fight, because if the prospect is legit and becomes a great fighter people will look back with 20/20 hindsight and say “Whoa why did he fight that guy”, when at the time people had no confirmation he would someday become as he great as he did. The chaff is seperated from the wheat, and for every Roger Huerta that bulldozes his way to the top there are guys like Antonio Silva who you have to take a step back from when they get KTFO by an Eric Pelee who they should have stomped.
What I think you are kind of saying, and I agree with, is that we shouldn’t be seeing progression fights for raw talent on a major MMA card like EliteXC.
However, due to Kimbo’s unique persona and cult following he brings with him into MMA, no promoter can pass up any second of Kimbo coverage that they can offer. People are still treating him like a freak show, they just want to see him brawl. Kimbo however is really taking this seriously, and wants to be a true competitive MMA heavyweight. People need to realize this, and deal with the fact that he is going to have to polish some cans to get himself ready to face anyone in the likes of the top 10. And they will have to watch because they want to see him so bad. Luckily, the HW is shallow, and the process will be much shorter than in a division like WW where guys like Karo Parysian are still struggling to get a title shot.
ditto on what the others said about your knowledgeable and insightful posts, i enjoy your input and learn a lot from reading your posts.
i love mma, but i know more about boxing. you are correct about the need for mma guys to be brought up more slowly.
what mma lacks (because of its new-ness) is a good population of opponents and journeymen. in boxing, you take a prospect and put in in with opponents, guys who know the game but are basically there to be beat, represent little to no threat, just to get your fighter some exposure and real ring experience. after a while, you put in in with a journeyman, somebody who will test him,is a threat to win, but is no longer a contender or a world beater.
there is not a whole lot of people in mma that qualify as “journeymen” i dare to say.
for example, in UFC/Pride, who would qualify as a journeyman in the HW division, that is, no tomato-can, but not a huge threat to a prospect/contender?
[/quote]
Good point. There aren’t many.
Well, Jeremy Horn springs to mind. Been on downward slope since Chuck gave him beating.
Arguably - Ken Shamrock, Shonie Carter, Shannon Ritch, Evan Tanner (maybe a bit harsh but we will see after the okami fight), Phil Baroni (bit harsh?), Pedro Rizzo, Sakuraba, Minowa, Don Frye (still relevant?), Gary Goodridge (still relevant?), Yuki Kondo, Bustamante, Dave Menne, Ricco Rodriguez, Carlos Newton, Renzo Gracie, Tony Fryklund, Joe Riggs and you could even argue Tank Abbott. These guys I would consider the the kind of vets or “gatekeepers” to the upper level.
Does anyone know the fighter payouts?