Thanks for all the great names you guys threw out about jewish athletes. I find it pretty funny, i post this topic weeks ago, then just today come to see 79 replies, freaked the hell outta me. There was a question in the whole mess of junk reply’s where someone asked if anyone here actually bodybuilds and keeps kosher. For me, I currently do, though in the past have bought free range beef and hid it in my private fridge. Now i just found it a hastle and have stuck to empire products. I find that kosher food is actually pretty great. Especially the chicken. MMMMmmmm. Its pre-soaked and brined, top notch stuff. Other than the meats really everything else in the bodybuilders diet is kosher. Heck, hams not the best choice for meat i think anyway. *Side Note…ONE MONTH TILL COMP:)
Well, I’m glad we’ve all argued and not changed each others’ minds. 
Also, we should stop feeling sorry for Jewish athletes, because the most famous person in history is a Jew. (Come on, how many of us say his name every day?)
I have stayed out of this disscussion so far, mostly because I don’t care, but I wanted to add one thing, straight from the mouth of one of my highschool religion teachers. What he said that has always stuck with me is that faith shouldn’t be fact based. Thats the whole point in believing and having faith. If we could prove there is a god and Jesus, then everybody would believe no problem. It takes much more conviction and faith to keep believing even if there isn’t fact in the matter. No one has any problem believing grass is green, we can prove that. That doesn’t take any conviction.
Danny
I just wanted to take the oppritunity to answer doogie’s other question. The answer is that these were two different situations. It speaks of this in 1 Corinthians 15 if you still cared. My points are this, as much as you want to question the Bible you will always find that it does not contradict itself. I just wanted the truth be known because the truth will “set you free.” I know it has in my life. I encourage everyone that reads this post eek to find God with all your heart because the word says,“You will seek me and find me when you seek me withall your heart.” Jeremiah 29:13 Jesus really does love you.
Jesus said, “I am the way the truth and the life, NO ONE comes to the father except through me.” John 14:6
Tyler bro…
If you don’t like reading this stuff…then guess what???..tune in somewhere else!!!..what a concept huh???
This post has grown and grown for some reason…so get over it!!!
And so you know…the majority of my responses were in response to being attacked for my beliefs and correcting or trying to correct misinformation…
I am not trying to convert anyone…at the most…plant a thought…at the least…attemtp to correct BS comments…
Now BUGG out if you dont want to read it bro!!!
I’m sorry but this was hilarious:
“WOW!..INVISIBLE 3
that was an extrememly enlightening commentary on the Gospels.
I dare say…it would take more faith NOT to believe in Christ and Him crucified and Him also creating the physical universe than to believe it!”
Invisible 3,
No, they were not two different situations. I don’t have a bible in front of me, but you are clearly weasling out of addressing the obvious discrepancies. Also, the fact that one genealogy is the line to the throne and the other is Joseph’s line does not address the 15 generation discrepancy. One lists 28 generations between David and Jesus, the other 43. That’s 15 extra generations which is at least 300 years difference between the two time lines. I typed a HUGE response to the silly article you posted above, but it hasn’t shown up for some reason. I’ll repost it tonight.
PtrDR,
It is only a revelation to the one God speaks directly to. To everyone else it is hearsay.
Doogie,
I refuse to keep argueing with yourself because you dont even listen. There has been so much written about this stuff (you know books and stuff) but you refuse to look into the whole thing, choosing to follow Thomas Payne!?! I should actually turn the tables about that whole thing but I refuse. My whole thing is there is proof and I have more than should you that but your Mr. know it all. While you make arguements about stuff you dont even explore into. You just choose to use your limited knowledge to point out false discrepencies and use methods of statistics that dont even make sense.
Invisible 3,
There’s been books written about it and stuff? That’s your strongest arguement?
Do you mean books like the Koran? Or Dianetics?
Invisible 3,
I found my big long response to you in the off topic board. It’s reposted below.
First, I am a math teacher, but the arguments I typed above are not mine; they are Thomas Paine’s. Second, your surprisingly Luis Farahkahn-like numerology response above does not in any way address Paine’s arguments that there are nearly 300 years difference between the two genealogies (15 generations, whether they are heirs to the throne or Joseph’s bloodline). Also, nowhere in your response do you in any way address the discrepancies in the two stories of the resurrection.
I don’t have time to address every silly argument in that article you posted (from such an unbiased source, no less), but I’ll touch on a few while I wait for you to address the resurrection discrepancies.
“…the writings in the gospels is simple and alive, what we would expect from traditionally accepted authors.”
What kind of argument is that?
“The stories of Jesus’ human weaknesses and of the disciples’ faults also bespeak the gospels’ accuracy.”
Why?
“The gospels do not suppress apparent discrepancies, which indicates their originality.” Oh, because they don’t make any sense, they MUST be true.
“Finally, the style of each particular gospel is appropriate to what we know of the personalities of the traditional authors.” Oh, that’s convincing. I mean if we know of the author’s styles, there’s no way someone else could know also. Surely not some devious person who could forge the gospels in those styles. Surely not.
“He concludes that there is no more reason to doubt that the gospels come from the traditional authors…except that the gospels contain supernatural events.” Isn’t that enough of a reason to doubt?
“Most importantly, the extra-biblical testimony unanimously attributes the gospels to their traditional authors.”
UNANIMOUSLY? Is that a joke?
“Third, the Scriptures were collected early into a distinct volume.” So they are old?
“Fourth, the writings were given titles of respect.” Wow. Who can argue with that logic.
“Fifth, these writings were publicly read and expounded.” Like the Koran?
“Seventh, the Scriptures were accepted by all heretical groups as well as by orthodox Christians.” Wow. By ALL heretical groups!
“Ninth, the early opponents of Christianity regarded the gospels as containing the accounts upon which the religion was founded.” This one is really silly. Do the opponents of Islam accept that the Koran is the account upon which Islam is founded? Do the opponents of Scientology accept that DIANETICS is the account upon which it is founded?
“Even if it should be the case that the names of the authors traditionally ascribed to the gospels are mistaken, it still could not be denied that the gospels do contain the story that the original apostles proclaimed and for which they labored and suffered.” So, even if the gospels are forged, they are still true?
“The differences that do exist are quite minor and are the result of unintentional mistakes.” If the gospels are the word of God, how did he screw it up.
“The text of the NT is every bit as good as the text of the classical works of antiquity.” No one believes those are factual either.
“Their argument basically boiled down to a dilemma: if the gospel accounts of Jesus’ miracles and resurrection are false, then the apostles were either deceivers or deceived. Since both of these alternatives are implausible, it follows that the accounts must be true.” Of course. No one lies. Ever. That would be implausible.
"Paley answers the allegation that the resurrection appearances were the result of “religious enthusiasms’ (that is, were hallucinations) by arguing that the theory fails on several counts. First, not just one person but many saw Christ appear. Second, they saw him not individually but together. Third, they saw him appear not just once, but several times. Fourth, they not only saw him, but touched him, conversed with him, and ate with him.”
Couldn’t practically all of those arguments prove that the case against the Salem witches?
“…ultimately collapses back into the hypothesis of conspiracy and deceit, which, Paley remarks, has pretty much been given up in view of the evident sincerity of the apostles…” Again, differentiate that from the testimony against the Salem witches.
“One of the most popular arguments against this theory is the obvious sincerity of the disciples as attested by their suffering and death.” I’ll tell you what sincerity is: strapping a bomb to yourself because you really believe there are 70 virgins waiting on you.
There is a whole paragraph about how Christians suffered a long time ago. I’m not sure what that proves, as all religions have a history of suffering. Believing fairy tales tends to do that to people.
“Since it has been already abundantly proved that the accounts of the gospels do stem from their apostolic authors, Paley concludes then the story must be true. For the apostles could not be deceivers.” Uh, no it hasn’t been abundantly proved. They can’t even get the story of the resurrection straight. Either they are liars or imbeciles.
“A second popular argument against the disciples’ being deceivers was that their character precludes their being liars…why not believe the testimony of these men?” Oh, well hell, that’s could enough for me to devote my life to. You have got to be kidding me.
“Sixth, even the enemies of Christianity acknowledged Jesus’ resurrection.” Bullshit.
“How then, could a dozen, poor, coarse, and apprehensive, turn the world upside down?” Ask Buddha. It only took one of him.
That’s all I have time for tonight. Anyway, I probably won’t respond anymore until you can explain why the apostles can’t even get their stories straight concerning the resurrection. I mean don’t we all remember exactly where we were when we first saw a dead guy walking around.
To PtrDr:
“Only someone too pig headed or hard hearted would deny the logic and detail of not only our existence being from almighty God…but also His divine revelation.” Deists do believe we are God’s creation. That in no way leads to a belief in Jesus. As far as “His divine revelation”, it is only a revelation to the person God speaks to. To everyone else it is hearsay. Even if you read it in a book.
I must have been tired when I wrote my last posting on here…
What I meant to say is that it takes more way more faith to believe that we all got here by chance and that there is not an invisible Almighty God who spoke and the Universe lept into existence. Its way more whacky to believe in the astronomical mathematics of that chance than to know that God did indeed create us and therefore is omnipotent…omnipresent and all knowing…and this includes His Word and His plan for the redemption of mankind.
To believe other than that is illogical and essentially impossible mathematically speaking in terms of chance or random occurance…
Forgive me Doogie,
I thought that you had some prior knowledge of the Bible in the sense that the two different geneologies where because Mathew traced the line from Joseph and Luke traced it through Mary. Your next question, “why is it that Joseph’s name is in the geneology of Luke then.” Good question. Answer:
"Thus Luke, probably through the instrumentality of Mary herself, or persons intimately connected with her, obtained possesion of the geneological table of Mary’s father Heli and committed it to writing in his Gospel. However, because it is not customary (among the Romans as well as among the Jews)to insert the name of a woman in a lineage list, he added the words “(as we supposed) the son of Joseph”.
“There is nothing strange in it that the genealogical tavle of Jesus existed at that time. Under the guiding hand of God the Jews preserved their genealogical tables with remarkible accuracy through all the centuries before the birth of Jesus and also during the first century of his birth. Ever since the earliest times the lineage lists were compiled and preserved as accurately as possible.”
The New International Commentary on the New Testament.
Hope now you can see this. As a math teacher please tell me that you understand what I’m saying about the inferences about the people’s mean age. It’s rediculous, but you can’t blame him for not knowing what we know now. I just wanted to address this issue now and will address your other arguements in the near future.
During his life, he could get only 12 men to totally devote themselves to him. This from the supposed son of god. 12 out of the several hundred thousand jews living in the region at the time. It seems that they knew something that the later christian converts who weren’t first hand witnesses did not.
“OJ Simpson- not a jew”
By the way, good job of taking statements in that article out of context. I bet it makes you feel better about your situation.
I almost forgot, about your arguement that there was more generations in Lukes account. Your right, did you notice he took the lineage back to Adam.
EMcKee…
Bro…talk what you know!!!
He chose the 12 on purpose…and MANY JEWS DID BELIEVE IN HIM DURING THAT TIME… and thousands died for their faith after the resurrection as well. Paul/Saul persecuted the Jews like no other before Christ appeared to Him and blinded Him. Pauls site was restored by the apostles when he went to them to tell them what happened and that he was now a believer.
Jesus appeared to over 500 hundred people after His resurrection so the reality of His resurrection was kept alive by eye witnesses for centuries…even the one YOU AND I live in!
Again bro…talk what you know…
mcgee that was one of the most ignorant statements I have heard. I can tell you have no knowledge of the subject. Before you go runnin your mouth please at least read the gospel accounts, or a commentary of the New Testament. From your statement I can tell you have not.
No, there are 43 generations listed in Luke between Jesus and David–not including any between David and Adam. Nice try though.
And yes I do understand your arguement about the mean ages. I almost didn’t add in that footnote, but I decided to quote it all completely.
Wow this is a crack head-posting! On one hand we got someone trying to light the fire and on the other hand we got someone offended by an idea. Sorry to offend all of you at once but this is stupid. Does your faith work for you? Does your faith make you believe in humanity? Yes? Well then shut the fuck up and be happy with it! Do not try to provoke people and do not get overly offended by the provoker! Both your Gods would be dissapointed, though they are technically the same God! Golden rule people, this is something we can all agree on, I hope. As long as what you believe makes you a decent person then I welcome you. I personally like to look at the symbolism in Easter, recognition of riseing from the dead. Recognition of rebirth, rebirth of your particular faith, rebirth of the world. Hope in miracles, endlessness, and life. Good there then everyone can celebrate it! Now go look for eggs! Also on Christmas put up a tree- these are the blending of faiths and beliefs in symbolism so that everyone can come together in humanity and get along.
RS......No...these are a blending of Christian and PAGAN rituals. I am not anti Easter bunny or Santa Claus either. I think they are great holidays. But the don't overshadow the "real reason" for these celebrations.
Again…talk about the golden rule if you know the master. Otherwise…parroting it to try to chastise someone is fruitless. None of us are perfect and able to follow the golden rule anyhow…that is why we accept the Master as the Savior.
The gospel of Jesus is good news!..its nothing to brag and stick your tongue out at other people and condemn them. I would hope that EVERYONE WHO HAS READ THIS SITE eventually comes to accept Jesus Christ as their savior. Not just me and a few others…
Its a free gift…the grace and love of Christ for eternal life with Him. Its nothing to get mad about or offended about.
I have a happy life and know that I am not missing out on a SINGLE thing. I have lived the life of sin…done all the stuff…and still do…things that are not part of a Christian life. Im no prude. I am a sinner like everyone else with thoughts and actions that do break any one of the commandments. HOWVEVER…I have accepted the grace of Christ as my savior and THAT ALONE…His grace…covers me. This doesn’t free me up to sin on purpose…I will on becoming Christlike everyday; but it does point me in His direction.
Again…its not a WE vs THEY mentality. I hope that everyone accepts Christ as the savior and Lord of their life…I don’t want to see people go to Hell.
We are all free will agents. God made us that way…so no one is going to try to force you to do anything…and you have a right as a free will agent and American to tell me to bug off. Be that as it may…I wish you no ill will at all and hope you open your mind a little to the truth of God at some point.
Peace…