[quote]KBCThird wrote:
This thread embodies the worst of this site.[/quote]
Its not exactly on point but there have been a few solid post so far, lol. Id much rather read something like this over:
“Form Check: 225x2 using a high bar, close stance, 2 second pause but i didnt have my oly shoes on”
or
“Im 17 years old and I can only deadlift 185lbs but I dont need an established routine so I came up with my own and I want you guys to tell me how awesome it is”
[quote]Haldor wrote:
I will just say that humans today are weak. Our testosterone levels are lower than your muffler compared to our ancestors. Neanderthals and the ancient Greeks would outlift us all.
[/quote]
ROFL you are one of those guys… Jesus this is too much[/quote]
This is what I was thinking. I love how he lumps ‘Neanderthals and the ancient Greeks’ together, and gives you shit about being specific with your language.
Neanderthals are an extinct species, so it’s not worth discussing their strength capacity. But I’ll humor you a little. The average Neanderthal is estimated to have been sub-180 lbs, and under 5 1/2 feet tall. If you’d like to pretend that such a species, as a whole, would be out-lifting the 300lb-plus strength athletes of today, be my guest. I wouldn’t want to be the one defending that position.
What in the hell would lead you to believe the ancient greeks were stronger than, say, Zydrunas Savickas? Your post implies that a good portion of the ancient greek population would ‘outlift us all’, and ‘us all’ would have to include all the strongest men in the world. This is not something I believe in any capacity, and there is no evidence in existence to support this notion. It’s just a romanticized, exaggeration of the past.[/quote]
Allow me to explain.
Leave my hypocrisy alone.
I did not group them together, I just gave two examples.
Neanderthals we’re 5 1/2 feet on average based on like 20 something specimens so I seriously doubt they were all 5 1/2 feet 180 lb. Generally speaking they were a lot faster and stronger than we are today because their test levels were colossally higher than ours. This has been shown in many studies you can find them on Jstor or National Geographic or other well respected anthropological sources.
I did not mean all ancient Greeks I meant the strongest ones would outlift us all, again because of higher test levels.
What I mean when I say they can outlift us is that they have a higher capacity for strength than we do in today’s society. Ultra high test levels and other hormone levels + constantly moving and being active as a society makes them potentially stronger than us which means their strong men > than our strong men. No there’s no way to definitively prove it, but it can easily be assumed based on current discoveries and research into those people and cultures.
[quote]Haldor wrote:
What I mean when I say they can outlift us is that they have a higher capacity for strength than we do in today’s society.
[/quote]
That’s not the same thing!!!
[quote]Haldor wrote:
their strong men > than our strong men
[/quote]
Dude just no… If you want to pretend to have such an understanding of the lifestyle back then, consider that weight training is a luxury. They did not have the convenience of getting anywhere near as strong as we can today. They also virtually never had the means of consuming 200+ grams of protein every day.
If you think random strong dudes from ancient civilizations were dealifting 1000lbs, you’re out of your goddamn mind rofl.
I did not group them together, I just gave two examples.
Neanderthals we’re 5 1/2 feet on average based on like 20 something specimens so I seriously doubt they were all 5 1/2 feet 180 lb. Generally speaking they were a lot faster and stronger than we are today because their test levels were colossally higher than ours. This has been shown in many studies you can find them on Jstor or National Geographic or other well respected anthropological sources.
I did not mean all ancient Greeks I meant the strongest ones would outlift us all, again because of higher test levels.
What I mean when I say they can outlift us is that they have a higher capacity for strength than we do in today’s society. Ultra high test levels and other hormone levels + constantly moving and being active as a society makes them potentially stronger than us which means their strong men > than our strong men. No there’s no way to definitively prove it, but it can easily be assumed based on current discoveries and research into those people and cultures.
[/quote]
Ok.
lol ok.
semantics, but ok. Not really a big deal, I can consider them to be shitty examples lumped together, or shitty examples of their own accord.
what evidence do you have that they weren’t all around this size? The only evidence we have suggest they were. Do you have some evidence the scientific community doesn’t know about, or are you basing this on a hunch? The idea is that this size was average, and it doesn’t seem unreasonable. And again. Different species. Their genetic profile was veeeeery similar to the modern human, but veeeeeery similar can still leave a lot of difference.
I guess my point here is that, even if we were to assume that Neanderthals were faster and stronger than modern humans, what would that matter? You’re just saying one extinct species had different attributes from a currently thriving species, in general. That’s not particularly fascinating.
Evidence for this? Ancient Greeks WERE the same species, and I have no idea why you would assume their hormonal profiles differed greatly from ours. What do you think their T levels were like, if they were so different? 1.5g? 2g? Heavy steroids users are injecting upwards of 4 or 5 grams per week today.
I’m not exactly sure what you’re saying here. So I guess I need to clarify… Are we talking about ‘natural’ capacity now? Like, perfect world scenario, where the ancient greek has access to all the things we have now? I assume not, since their activity levels are being considered. If activity level is considered, then diet needs to be as well, along with drug protocols. Training style too.
Let me ask you this. Was the average ancient greek, or any ancient greek for that matter, more active than, say, Rich Froning? This seems to be a dubious assumption. And I bet his test levels are pretty high. And his diet is almost undoubtedly worlds better than any ancient Greek’s.
It’s fun to pretend that ancient people were way awesomer than us though. I’m glad you enjoy it. Everybody needs something to enjoy.
[quote]Haldor wrote:
What I mean when I say they can outlift us is that they have a higher capacity for strength than we do in today’s society.
[/quote]
That’s not the same thing!!!
[quote]Haldor wrote:
their strong men > than our strong men
[/quote]
Dude just no… If you want to pretend to have such an understanding of the lifestyle back then, consider that weight training is a luxury. They did not have the convenience of getting anywhere near as strong as we can today. They also virtually never had the means of consuming 200+ grams of protein every day.
If you think random strong dudes from ancient civilizations were dealifting 1000lbs, you’re out of your goddamn mind rofl.[/quote]
I found this old picture on the internet and that means it is real and serves as proof that ancient civilizations were far more jacked then you think. So stop posting your ignorant comments. Everyone knows the ancient civilizations were able to perform amazing strength feats and this colour photograph taken around 1000BC proves my argument.
If you are just joining us on page 6 of this thread here is refresher of what csulli described as “the greatest human specimen to ever exist”. . .lmfao
FYI, I really do get more ass than a toilet seat. Do you muscle heads have any idea how irresistible my humour is to attractive ladies? Marilyn Monroe said it best “Make a woman laugh and you can make her do anything”.
[/quote]
You’ve fucked less than 20 girls, according to what you said in another thread. And you’re in your 40’s. And I’m assuming you’re not married.
That’s awful. I’m pretty sure I was past that number by the time I turned 21. And I didn’t get laid at all until I was 19.
On the topic of what could a natural lifter accomplish in terms of strength, Eric Helms of 3DMJ put out this video a couple days ago. I found it very interesting.
Edit…the video got deleted. I understand why Tnation wouldn’t be fans of 3dmj, but this video really poses no threat to your business
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
I remember this guy! That short guy thread was golden.
Wector, everybody in here believes that if a person uses steroids, he will get bigger and stronger.
People disagree about the numbers you threw out as natural limits. A 1600 is definitely NOT the limit for humans without steroids. You may be in the ballpark for guys under 200 lbs, although you’re still low in that regard. Sorry man, too many natural lifters have exceeded this number. It’s a big number, without a doubt, particularly for guys with lower bodyweights, but there are PLENTY of heavyweights who are stronger than this. Without steroids.[/quote]
“For guys under 200 Lbs”, but how much under ?
For average height guy, 200 Lbs %12-15 is already upper limit without steroids.
This gay cant weight more than that even he wants to. If we bulks up to %25-30, he can weight 230-240 Lbs but thats all. If he goes to 308 or SHW he would end like morbidly obese at %50 bodyfat.
I dont think I have ever seen a %50 Bodyfat athlete. Not even in Powerlifting!
If the guy in question is tall, than he can weight 300 Lbs, but than again, since he has taller arms and legs, ( Bad leverage ), still strength numbers would not change.
[/quote]
Wector, I feel sorry for you man. Your cynical attitude and acceptance of mediocrity with the justification of being natural will keep you from ever making signifcant progress in physique or strength goals. I am and will be drug free for life, but I sure as hell won’t put arbitrary limits on myself or believe that every guy who is bigger or stronger than me must be on steroids
Wow, this thread is pure comedy gold. The logical fallacies and incorrect assumptions in the initial post are staggering (a kid who was 5’5" and 225# in fourth grade can’t possibly have more muscle mass than Arnold without steroids?), and it just got better. Thanks for the entertainment!
I will give what Haldor said about pre-industrial men and neanderthals some credence, though. There’s archaeological evidence that previous generations in general had more tendon and ligament to bone connection due to the fact that everyone had hard, manual labor-intensive lives, which would mean that the average person back in the day was stronger than the average person today. Where the logic breaks down is when you try to apply that to the strongest of the strong, where modern training methods, nutrition and the luxury to apply them point toward the obvious conclusion that the very strongest of today are much stronger than our precursors. Not to mention the talent pool you’re drawing from now is 7 billion people, vs tens or hundreds of millions, up to gradually breaking a billion, depending on how far back you look.
As far as neanderthals are concerned, I haven’t really read much about them, but if their bone structure gave them better leverages they could very well have been stronger than us, much like an adult male chimpanzee who weighs under 200# is much stronger naturally than any human in a lot of ways just because of how he’s built. That doesn’t mean that a chimp can squat 1000#, even if you could get one to try, but I wouldn’t want to get in a wrestling match with one…
My opinion is that if you took a Neanderthal or an ancient Greek and put him to work at Westside for a few years he would be stronger than anyone on the same diet and program. Drug free.
Also in relevance to the other topic, I personally feel that there is nothing wrong with a grown ass person and athlete wanting to take his craft to the next level using PEDs, however I really don’t approve (and it’s not my place to do so) of them claiming to be drug free. Like, whatever man, do your thing, but don’t front like it’s all you, you would’ve never gotten to that level without enhancement.
It’s all a social construct anyway, they can’t just walk around openly stating that they’re on substances because then they won’t be allowed to compete even though everyone knows that everyone else is on something. This whole “let’s pretend like everyone is natural” mindset in sports is dumb if you ask me, but it is what it is.
Anyway. I plan to stay drug free for as long as I can. However I have a plan:
Let it be known here and now I plan to be the first person to total 2000 @ 190-200lb DRUG FREE. It will happen. Mark my words and watch me in 10 years.
[quote]Haldor wrote:
My opinion is that if you took a Neanderthal or an ancient Greek and put him to work at Westside for a few years he would be stronger than anyone on the same diet and program. Drug free.
Also in relevance to the other topic, I personally feel that there is nothing wrong with a grown ass person and athlete wanting to take his craft to the next level using PEDs, however I really don’t approve (and it’s not my place to do so) of them claiming to be drug free. Like, whatever man, do your thing, but don’t front like it’s all you, you would’ve never gotten to that level without enhancement. It’s all a social construct anyway, they can’t just walk around openly stating that they’re on substances because then they won’t be allowed to compete even though everyone knows that everyone else is on something. This whole “let’s pretend like everyone is natural” mindset in sports is dumb if you ask me, but it is what it is.
Anyway. I plan to stay drug free for as long as I can. However I have a plan:
Let it be known here and now I plan to be the first person to total 2000 @ 190-200lb DRUG FREE. It will happen. Mark my words and watch me in 10 years. [/quote]
I think Ancient Greeks are overexaggarated. They are just like us, modern humans. ( Homo Sapiens sapiens ). So their maximum Powerlifting Totals would be in same ballpark as todays top Powerlifters.
But for Neandarthels, I agree with you. They are different species , and as I read they were much stronger than us.
FYI, I really do get more ass than a toilet seat. Do you muscle heads have any idea how irresistible my humour is to attractive ladies? Marilyn Monroe said it best “Make a woman laugh and you can make her do anything”.
[/quote]
You’ve fucked less than 20 girls, according to what you said in another thread. And you’re in your 40’s. And I’m assuming you’re not married.
That’s awful. I’m pretty sure I was past that number by the time I turned 21. And I didn’t get laid at all until I was 19.[/quote]
You coming at me brah? Because I will assume the pose in this pic.
My numbers only gone up. . .why be such a h8er? Nobody stuck a needle in your ass and butt hurt you brah–you did it yourself. Because I don’t date women that look like this Mark Henry dude like yourself and add them to my number you gotta get all butt hurt? I never said I was some awesome stud, even though the ladies tell me that a lot. Just didn’t want anyone thinking my vhs porn collection was the only action I get cause it’s not. I am picky. . .girls gotta be 8-10. But that is besides the point. I came here because Jesus said muscle forums are full of dumb funny people and so far he didn’t disappoint!
[quote]Haldor wrote:
My opinion is that if you took a Neanderthal or an ancient Greek and put him to work at Westside for a few years he would be stronger than anyone on the same diet and program. Drug free.
Also in relevance to the other topic, I personally feel that there is nothing wrong with a grown ass person and athlete wanting to take his craft to the next level using PEDs, however I really don’t approve (and it’s not my place to do so) of them claiming to be drug free. Like, whatever man, do your thing, but don’t front like it’s all you, you would’ve never gotten to that level without enhancement. It’s all a social construct anyway, they can’t just walk around openly stating that they’re on substances because then they won’t be allowed to compete even though everyone knows that everyone else is on something. This whole “let’s pretend like everyone is natural” mindset in sports is dumb if you ask me, but it is what it is.
Anyway. I plan to stay drug free for as long as I can. However I have a plan:
Let it be known here and now I plan to be the first person to total 2000 @ 190-200lb DRUG FREE. It will happen. Mark my words and watch me in 10 years. [/quote]
I think Ancient Greeks are overexaggarated. They are just like us, modern humans. ( Homo Sapiens sapiens ). So their maximum Powerlifting Totals would be in same ballpark as todays top Powerlifters.
But for Neandarthels, I agree with you. They are different species , and as I read they were much stronger than us. [/quote]
[quote]Haldor wrote:
My opinion is that if you took a Neanderthal or an ancient Greek and put him to work at Westside for a few years he would be stronger than anyone on the same diet and program. Drug free.[/quote]
Not the same thing at all. You’re changing your story. I won’t argue that if you got some genetically gifted badass from back in the day and put him to work at Quads gym then he’d probably end up stronger than almost any other natural dude from nowadays under the same parameters. But that’s not the fuckin statement you made dawg. You said they were just way stronger than our guys, which is totally absurd lol.
