How's It Possible to Total 2300 All Natural?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
41

[quote]Wector wrote:
Yeah yeah, I am sure lifetime drug free Shw athlete can deadlift 1000 Lbs easier.

Steroids add nothing.

What a bullshit…

We are talking about 80 times more testesterone and MUCH MORE Muscle mass here.

Its very illogical to assume that STEROIDS does not add much strength.

They are DAMN EFFECTIVE.

Lots of Powerlifters would struggle with 400 Lbs Benchpress and 600 Lbs Deadlift if steroids were never invented.

Before 1950’s Benchpress record was stood at about 360 Lbs.

One is belong to Georg Hackenscmidth, and this guy was wrestler too and beated about 3000 guys.

But he had only 360 Lbs. Because he was not using steroids.

Another evidence for this is, World Strongest Men competetions.

Steroids are allowed in this competetion, because without steroids, you cant expect men to achieve those performance. ( Lifting cars, etc. ).

You are too much underestimating the importance of steroids.

Mark Henry has %22 Bodyfat and has a lean mass of 289 Lbs.

That is about same as Ronnie Coleman and Jay Cutler.

Claiming both guys are Natural is that claiming you can live without Heart, or Oxygen.

In the internet I’ve read lots of comments about 500 Lbs Bench and 800 Lbs deadlift, but when I go to gym I cant see it.

In the internet everybody is 6 Ft 3" and Millionaire, and dating with models, but in reality they are very few.

I am not saying some guys are genetically blessed.

They are, but genetics are not so important as you think.

Usually steroid users defend this card, in other to convince other people that, they have done this naturally. So people would think that “Oh, this guy has great genetics, but I dont, so even I inject my self steroids, he would be superior”.

Steroid users does not want competetion. Otherwise everyone would inject steroids and come close to their strength and size.

I can prove this with Ted Arcidi.

Ted Arcidi is 5 Ft 11". He said that, when he was graduated from highschool he was only 165 lbs.

He said his first Benchpress attempt was only 170 Lbs 4 Reps.

This guy has broken a world record. He benchpressed 660 Lbs Raw.

660 Lbs!

How many people would consider him as genetic freak with his starting benchpress and physique ?

He used steroids, because you cant have over 20" arms and some kind of definition on your chest at 5 Ft 11" 285 Lbs.

It’s obvious.

If he never used steroids he would benchpressing 350-400 Lbs.

The truth is, lots of steroid users ( And hiders ), are also bench pressing 350-400 Lbs and claiming that “They are all natural”. Its a huge lie.

[/quote]

Yeah, but Ted Arcidi was short. If he would have been over 6ft tall he wouldn’t have been so weak or had to resort to using steroids so soon. Please come up with an example of someone over 6 ft tall (aka someone not tiny)

42

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]Wector wrote:
I just want to know how much does steroids increase strength.
[/quote]
… You actually never really said that in the OP lol.

[quote]Wector wrote:
A 18" Arm has 168 Cm2 cross sectional area, while 23" Arm has 272 Cm2 cross sectional area.

There is %62 difference between 18" arm and 23" arm.

We know that Elite Powerlifters and Bodybuilders take grams of doses testesterone. As I know Ryan Kennely was taking about 4000 Mg / Week. So this is basically 80 Times more than testicles can produce. 80 times more!

I think its logical to achieve about 2 times strength increase with HIGH Doses Steroids and HGH.
[/quote]
It sounds like you want all these arbitrary numbers to work out to some sort of explanation for how much steroids matter and to justify your levels without them. No one can create for you a steroid equation. It’s just individual biology and genetics. You’ll never really nail anything down in exact terms.

[quote]Wector wrote:
What do you think about Powerlitfing Total and Bench / Squat / Deadlift records would be ?
[/quote]
We really can’t know this. That may be frustrating, but I would just say try to find motivation in other ways.[/quote]

Human genetics are %99.9 same. Human Male Testesterone is same and Human Muscle is same. Because we are damn humans!

Therefore,

%20 increase in Cross Sectional area in arms leads to %40 STRENGTH increase.

Variability in muscle size and strength gain after unilateral resistance training - PubMed

So there is %62 Cross Sectional area difference between High Dose Steroid users and Non Users!

You do the math…

43

Ted Arcidi’s height is optimal for Powerlifting.

Jon Cole - 5 Ft 10", Andrey Malanichev 5 Ft 10-11" , Eric Spoto 5 Ft 10.5" .

44

[quote] Wector wrote:

I am not against steroid use. I dont think they are cheaters and I respect their strength. [/quote]

I love how it always starts so innocently.

Btw OP, the highest total achieveable naturally is 1328lbs. Be a good boy and do your glute bridges. You’ll get there.

45

[quote]Wector wrote:
600 Lb deadlift his huge accomplishment and lots of people are telling lies.
[/quote]

I appreciate the compliment, but I think this mentality might be holding you back. It is a great milestone, but it should not be thougth of as “the end”. I’m at 200lbs now, still drug free and can move that weight for reps in my training. If you are bigger, you should be able to lift even more.

46

There are numerous drug free people on this forum that have deadlifted more than 600lbs squatted more than 600lbs and benched more than 400lbs. I guess I am a genetic outlier since I benched 350 TnG back in May at a bodyweight of 154, and have no doubt I could hit 400 within a year or so if I just stuffed my face with food.

47

[quote]Wector wrote:
Ted Arcidi’s height is optimal for Powerlifting.

Jon Cole - 5 Ft 10", Andrey Malanichev 5 Ft 10-11" , Eric Spoto 5 Ft 10.5" .

[/quote]

Jon Cole was a great powerlifter, however when he was insulted and challenged to a one on one lifting competition by 6’1" Jim Williams he faked an injury because he was intimidated by him. Even though he might have put up better numbers, Williams having over 6ft stature made him nervous and feel inferior.

48

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Please come up with an example of someone over 6 ft tall (aka someone not tiny)[/quote]

=(

49

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Please come up with an example of someone over 6 ft tall (aka someone not tiny)[/quote]

=([/quote]
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/music_movies_girls_life/why_5_ft_6

50

[quote]Wector wrote:
Human genetics are %99.9 same. Human Male Testesterone is same and Human Muscle is same. Because we are damn humans!

Therefore,

%20 increase in Cross Sectional area in arms leads to %40 STRENGTH increase.

So there is %62 Cross Sectional area difference between High Dose Steroid users and Non Users!

You do the math…
[/quote]
I’m not sure how old you are, or what your first language is, or where you fall on the autism spectrum, so I don’t know how effective my communication to you will be.

I’ll give it my best shot though. You have virtually no understanding of biomechanics and strength. Take two people with identical muscle mass. One of them has upper arms that are 2" shorter. The shorter upper arm guy will probably easily out bench the other guy. The other guy may likely out deadlift the stronger bencher. A lot of it is just physics. Muscle attachments, bone lengths, pec/shoulder/bicep/tricep insertions, orientation of the hips, the list goes on and on. You are over simplifying this to a degree I’m not even sure how to put into words.

Not to mention increasing muscle mass does not have anything resembling a uniform increase in strength. There are obviously big guys who are relatively weak and skinny guys who are relatively strong. Strength is a skill. Bench strength, deadlift strength, squat strength, etc, it’s all specific. You can build a lot of muscle without concentrating on building any of the skills and not be especially strong. You can focus 100% on the skill and not really build a ton of mass but be really strong at the specific lifts.

Also, steroids make you stronger independently of adding additional muscle mass. Take some halotestin. I doubt you’ll get any bigger at all, but you’ll gain the strength of a titan lol.

You really just don’t know how any of this works, and I suggest trying your best not to let it bother you. Just lift as best you can with or without steroids depending on your own personal choice.

51

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Please come up with an example of someone over 6 ft tall (aka someone not tiny)[/quote]

=([/quote]

^^ this thread is fucking golden!

52

I love this thread.

For the sake of being facetious, I’d like to pose a few questions in return. What do you think the highest natural total would be if trainees were confined to eating cheesies all day? If I deadlift more than 600 lbs as a natural, do I then have to go and get someone to inject me in the butt with HGH? If you had access to a time machine and could travel back to any point in the past, would you go and sell George Hackenschmidt insulin?

53

@csulli

You are really dumb.

Of course I know, slow twitch / fast twitch ratio, limb length, leverage etc. lots of factors play a role in strength.

But if the we think about same guy with non steroid, and after steroids, ( So everything is being equal besides muscle mass ), its clear that the bigger the SAME guy, bigger the results.

So imagine this guy at 190 Lbs %10 Bodyfat 16" arm @ Average height

And imagine this guy at 280 Lbs %10 Bodyfat 22" arm

Even a 5 year old kid can understand that, SAME guy is MUCH Powerfull at 280 Lbs.

Its obvious that , without steroids no one can have 280 Lbs %10 Bodyfat.

54

Feeding trolls only gives them power, people.

When one makes an outlandish statement such as, “the highest total without steroids couldn’t be more than 1600,” you know they are either a troll, or too stupid to even have a conversation with. Treat them as such :).

55

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Your argument definitely has legs, there’s just a handful of other dudes that fit in the conversation. [/quote]
Well yeah it can never really be anything more than my opinion haha.

I am always fascinated by people’s natural physical talents (not even saying natural as in non-steroids, just natural as in, it comes easily to them). Some guys can run a 4.4 40 and not even realize that they’re anything special, because it was easy to them.

Rick Weil, LEGENDARY bench presser literally never had to try that hard to set world raw bench records in two weight classes that stand to this day (30 years later…). He said the hardest thing he ever did was get his degree. Bench pressing was easy, and he was shocked no one was ever able to beat his record since it wasn’t even that much of a challenge for him lol. 556 @ 181!

Jeremy Hoornstra is a bit similar. I actually heard that someone saw him benching at the college gym and afterwards went up and said “You realize that was a world record right?” Then J Ho was like “Oh, I guess I should compete…” Pretty much the same with Ray Williams. He had no concept of how strong he actually was until someone told him, simply because it all came very naturally. He assumed powerlifters were all going to be way stronger than he was until someone told him “No actually you’re already out squatting pretty much all of them in the world…” rofl.

Mark is one of those types who, like you said, was just built to move heavy things. Has anyone ever seen him load a barbell? I shit you not, he grabs a 45 with one hand and just kinda slaps it on one handed like you’d do with a 5 lol. He’s probably never even stopped to consider how not normal that is.[/quote]

Haha, when it’s something you’ve always had you have no point of reference. It’s not 'til other people start losing their shit over it that you realize you’re “different”. Can you imagine how difficult it must be to be Mark Henry? At that size, with that level of cartoonish strength it’s like he’s another species. Everyday shit we tage for granted must suck for him.

56

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
Feeding trolls only gives them power, people.

When one makes an outlandish statement such as, “the highest total without steroids couldn’t be more than 1600,” you know they are either a troll, or too stupid to even have a conversation with. Treat them as such :).[/quote]

If was I troll I did not use scientific links to my claims.

Even a 5 year old kid understand that, tons of steroids ( Nearly 80 Times more than Naturally a body can produce ) , can cause HUGE strength difference.

There is an absolute limits of strength. Even if you train 1000 years, you cant deadlift or squat a Titanic.

Sure, I accept that it contradicts with powerlifting mentality, setting limits in mind may not good for training, but this is facts.

57

@Wector

What are you really asking/getting at? Yes okay so a 2300 total is almost definitely not possible without PED’s, the majority of people can accept that, but since we’ve figured that one out then now what would you like to know/what are you stating? Other than the ridiculous claim of 600/400/600 being the highest total anyone without drugs can achieve.

58

[quote]Wector wrote:
@csulli

You are really dumb.

Of course I know, slow twitch / fast twitch ratio, limb length, leverage etc. lots of factors play a role in strength.

But if the we think about same guy with non steroid, and after steroids, ( So everything is being equal besides muscle mass ), its clear that the bigger the SAME guy, bigger the results.

So imagine this guy at 190 Lbs %10 Bodyfat 16" arm @ Average height

And imagine this guy at 280 Lbs %10 Bodyfat 22" arm

Even a 5 year old kid can understand that, SAME guy is MUCH Powerfull at 280 Lbs.

Its obvious that , without steroids no one can have 280 Lbs %10 Bodyfat.[/quote]

59

I remember this guy! That short guy thread was golden.

Wector, everybody in here believes that if a person uses steroids, he will get bigger and stronger.

People disagree about the numbers you threw out as natural limits. A 1600 is definitely NOT the limit for humans without steroids. You may be in the ballpark for guys under 200 lbs, although you’re still low in that regard. Sorry man, too many natural lifters have exceeded this number. It’s a big number, without a doubt, particularly for guys with lower bodyweights, but there are PLENTY of heavyweights who are stronger than this. Without steroids.

60

All ill say to this is I have a training partner you can find and see on my youtube and FB acount. I wont say his name but at 6’3’ 290 he has squat 670 benched 400 and pulled 700 with out drugs on a platform ( however in a non sanctioned meet). He is looking to break 1900 before he gets on any AAS and in a year or 2 I strongly believe he will do it.