How's It Possible to Total 2300 All Natural?

Training Powerlifting
21

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Just got a refresher on his accomplishments, and as impressive as they are, there’s no way anyone can legitimately call this guy the “ultimate physical specimen” or whatever. He was 6’4" and 414 lbs with NO LESS than 30% bodyfat, and that’s being generous. So, he basically squatted & deaded a li’l more than double his bodyweight, snatched less than his bodyweight, benched and c&j’d a bit more than bodyweight… his sheer size was his standout attribute. There are quite a few guys who have put up proportionately more impressive numbers. They just weren’t 6’4" and 414 lbs.[/quote]
Never called him the most proportionately strong person rofl. His physical size and strength are exactly what I’m talking about. I don’t know why anyone gives a shit about his bodyfat percentage. Start a thread on a different subforum if that’s where you want to take the discussion.

Fact remains to this day he has the largest supertotal in the world, and he hardly even seriously pursued it.

Do you know how many powerlifters at any bodyweight have ever squatted and deadlifted 900 raw? Your descriptions of someone doing this at that bodyweight are pretty asinine lol.

Plus he did all this shit before he was even like 25. That’s like 10 years from when most strength athletes would start hitting their biggest lifts.

22

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]DanProsser wrote:
You have to be trolling. This fat ass is massively, massively over-rated.
[/quote]
Nope. I guess Ed Coan and Kaz are massive trolls too. Don’t worry though I totally respect your opinion over theirs ;)[/quote]

rofl!!

23

[quote]DanProsser wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]DanProsser wrote:
You have to be trolling. This fat ass is massively, massively over-rated.
[/quote]
Nope. I guess Ed Coan and Kaz are massive trolls too. Don’t worry though I totally respect your opinion over theirs ;)[/quote]
rofl!![/quote]
I see you lol

24

Well the question was not whether Mark Henry is great specimen or not. I respect his strength and sheer size, but I highly doubt he is all natural.

I just want to know how much does steroids increase strength.

Because there is huge difference in muscle cross sectional area.

A 18" Arm has 168 Cm2 cross sectional area, while 23" Arm has 272 Cm2 cross sectional area.

There is %62 difference between 18" arm and 23" arm.

Most gifted LIFETIME NATURAL people could hit 18", but for 23" , you would need high doses of steroids.

We know that Elite Powerlifters and Bodybuilders take grams of doses testesterone. As I know Ryan Kennely was taking about 4000 Mg / Week. So this is basically 80 Times more than testicles can produce. 80 times more!

I think its logical to achieve about 2 times strength increase with HIGH Doses Steroids and HGH.

When I check Benchpress records, for example, before 1950’s, it was stood about 363 Lbs.

Doug Hepburn was first guy to Bench 420 Lbs, and in 1953 he pressed 500 Lbs.

I doubt he was natural. Because Steroids were available from 1930’s. 1938, a Weiglifting Magazine has an article about anabolic steroids, it was first mentioned in 1938.

We know Doug Hepburn was working out in York Barbell. ( Which Doctor Ziegler was experimenting early stages of Steroids in there )…

I think he benchpressed 420 Lbs Naturally, then they inject him steroids and he broke 500 Lbs Record.

I am not against steroid use. I dont think they are cheaters and I respect their strength. But, when someone benchpress 500 Lbs Raw and say " I am all natural ", it gets me really angry.

What do you think about Powerlitfing Total and Bench / Squat / Deadlift records would be ?

25

I think the real variable you are forgetting about, Wector, is whether or not these men were 5’9" or thereabouts.

26

I think at most the natural records would be 405/315/495. NO POSSIBLE WAY ANYONE’S TOTALLING MORE THAN THAT WITHOUT DRUGS.

27

[quote]Wector wrote:
Well the question was not whether Mark Henry is great specimen or not. I respect his strength and sheer size, but I highly doubt he is all natural.

I just want to know how much does steroids increase strength.

Because there is huge difference in muscle cross sectional area.

A 18" Arm has 168 Cm2 cross sectional area, while 23" Arm has 272 Cm2 cross sectional area.

There is %62 difference between 18" arm and 23" arm.

Most gifted LIFETIME NATURAL people could hit 18", but for 23" , you would need high doses of steroids.

We know that Elite Powerlifters and Bodybuilders take grams of doses testesterone. As I know Ryan Kennely was taking about 4000 Mg / Week. So this is basically 80 Times more than testicles can produce. 80 times more!

I think its logical to achieve about 2 times strength increase with HIGH Doses Steroids and HGH.

When I check Benchpress records, for example, before 1950’s, it was stood about 363 Lbs.

Doug Hepburn was first guy to Bench 420 Lbs, and in 1953 he pressed 500 Lbs.

I doubt he was natural. Because Steroids were available from 1930’s. 1938, a Weiglifting Magazine has an article about anabolic steroids, it was first mentioned in 1938.

We know Doug Hepburn was working out in York Barbell. ( Which Doctor Ziegler was experimenting early stages of Steroids in there )…

I think he benchpressed 420 Lbs Naturally, then they inject him steroids and he broke 500 Lbs Record.

I am not against steroid use. I dont think they are cheaters and I respect their strength. But, when someone benchpress 500 Lbs Raw and say " I am all natural ", it gets me really angry.

What do you think about Powerlitfing Total and Bench / Squat / Deadlift records would be ?
[/quote]
Training and supplementation has drastically improved in all areas since the 1950’s. Look at the top high school athletes playing football now compared to back then for a comparison. Freshmen in college look bigger and more ripped now than some 1970’s NFL’ers.

28

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
I think at most the natural records would be 405/315/495. NO POSSIBLE WAY ANYONE’S TOTALLING MORE THAN THAT WITHOUT DRUGS.[/quote]
You have to be joking, right?

29

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Just got a refresher on his accomplishments, and as impressive as they are, there’s no way anyone can legitimately call this guy the “ultimate physical specimen” or whatever. He was 6’4" and 414 lbs with NO LESS than 30% bodyfat, and that’s being generous. So, he basically squatted & deaded a li’l more than double his bodyweight, snatched less than his bodyweight, benched and c&j’d a bit more than bodyweight… his sheer size was his standout attribute. There are quite a few guys who have put up proportionately more impressive numbers. They just weren’t 6’4" and 414 lbs.[/quote]
Never called him the most proportionately strong person rofl. His physical size and strength are exactly what I’m talking about. I don’t know why anyone gives a shit about his bodyfat percentage. Start a thread on a different subforum if that’s where you want to take the discussion.

Fact remains to this day he has the largest supertotal in the world, and he hardly even seriously pursued it.

Do you know how many powerlifters at any bodyweight have ever squatted and deadlifted 900 raw? Your descriptions of someone doing this at that bodyweight are pretty asinine lol.

Plus he did all this shit before he was even like 25. That’s like 10 years from when most strength athletes would start hitting their biggest lifts.[/quote]

Show me where I wrote that you called him the proportionately strongest person ever and then you can be condescending. Also, how can you say he never seriously pursued it? His entire life from his freshman year of highschool was powerlifting. His bodyfat comes into play because you called him the most impressive physical specimen ever, or whatever you wrote, and he’s quite fat. Lastly, I understand how rare his numbers are, and that sheer size isn’t a determinant of weight moved.

30

Its not about training methods or supplements. Those are the ideas of heavy juicers. The difference between 1970’s and today are higher doses anabolic steroids, hgh and Igf-1.

1970’s Bodybuilders were also smaller than todays by about 50-60 Lbs.

Arnold was 235 Lbs %5 Bf, while todays IFBB Pro’s are about 300 Lbs.

Gunter Schlierkamp, Paul Dillett, Vince Taylor, Gary Strydom all are 6 Ft + and about 280-300 lbs. Far from 235 Lbs.

31

I think total would be about 1600 for lifetime natural AT THE MOST. I mean this would be world record.

So would be

400 Raw Bench

600 Raw Deadlift

600 Raw Squat

Nowadays, there are millions of steroid users in the world. Lots of them does not admit it, because of their ego. They want people to think that they achieved those strength with their “Perfect” genes.

32

[quote]Wector wrote:
I think total would be about 1600 for lifetime natural AT THE MOST. I mean this would be world record.

So would be

400 Raw Bench

600 Raw Deadlift

600 Raw Squat

Nowadays, there are millions of steroid users in the world. Lots of them does not admit it, because of their ego. They want people to think that they achieved those strength with their “Perfect” genes.
[/quote]
You are seriously underestimating the human potential.

33

[quote]Wector wrote:
I think total would be about 1600 for lifetime natural AT THE MOST. I mean this would be world record.

So would be

400 Raw Bench

600 Raw Deadlift

600 Raw Squat

Nowadays, there are millions of steroid users in the world. Lots of them does not admit it, because of their ego. They want people to think that they achieved those strength with their “Perfect” genes.
[/quote]

I hit my first 600lb deadlift as a raw 181er having never used steroids. A drug free SHW is going to move much larger weight.

34

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Show me where I wrote that you called him the proportionately strongest person ever and then you can be condescending.[/quote]
Sorry. I was inferring that you were going down that path from you listing his “li’l more than double his bodyweight” squat and deadlift. Some people you appreciate for their pound for pound strength, and some people you appreciate for the overall massive amount of weight being moved.

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Also, how can you say he never seriously pursued it? His entire life from his freshman year of highschool was powerlifting.[/quote]
From his freshman year of highschool to when he was 24 was about lifting. That’s only like 9 years, all of which well before most strength athletes will hit their largest weights. I mean it was a decent chunk of time, but it’s nothing compared to the amount of time most others had to devote to get to a similar level.

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
His bodyfat comes into play because you called him the most impressive physical specimen ever, or whatever you wrote, and he’s quite fat.[/quote]
Not following this. “Most impressive physical specimen” doesn’t have to mean leanest. I’m impressed with Dorian Yates in a very different way than I’m impressed with Mark Henry or Hossein Rezazadeh or Vasily Alekseyev. You can be an impressive physical specimen without being lean or aesthetic.

I am impressed by the strength and size and power there. Especially as easily as it came to Mark. Maybe people don’t understand the definitions of the words “physical” and “specimen”. They do not specify metrics for qualification. Mark Henry is an incredibly impressive physical specimen and so is Phil Heath; just in totally different ways.

35

[quote]Wector wrote:
I just want to know how much does steroids increase strength.
[/quote]
… You actually never really said that in the OP lol.

[quote]Wector wrote:
A 18" Arm has 168 Cm2 cross sectional area, while 23" Arm has 272 Cm2 cross sectional area.

There is %62 difference between 18" arm and 23" arm.

We know that Elite Powerlifters and Bodybuilders take grams of doses testesterone. As I know Ryan Kennely was taking about 4000 Mg / Week. So this is basically 80 Times more than testicles can produce. 80 times more!

I think its logical to achieve about 2 times strength increase with HIGH Doses Steroids and HGH.
[/quote]
It sounds like you want all these arbitrary numbers to work out to some sort of explanation for how much steroids matter and to justify your levels without them. No one can create for you a steroid equation. It’s just individual biology and genetics. You’ll never really nail anything down in exact terms.

[quote]Wector wrote:
What do you think about Powerlitfing Total and Bench / Squat / Deadlift records would be ?
[/quote]
We really can’t know this. That may be frustrating, but I would just say try to find motivation in other ways.

36

[quote]Wector wrote:
I think total would be about 1600 for lifetime natural AT THE MOST. I mean this would be world record.

So would be

400 Raw Bench

600 Raw Deadlift

600 Raw Squat

Nowadays, there are millions of steroid users in the world. Lots of them does not admit it, because of their ego. They want people to think that they achieved those strength with their “Perfect” genes.
[/quote]

This is a little silly. Using Henry as an example, he squatted 600 lbs as a freshman in highschool. Don’t know if that was to depth, or what the qualifications were, but he did it and I’m sure he was “clean”. There are some seriously naturally big and strong dudes out there who are just on a different level. Henry’s bones are probably literally twice the size of the average person’s. He was basically genetically engineered to move weight.

37

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Show me where I wrote that you called him the proportionately strongest person ever and then you can be condescending.[/quote]
Sorry. I was inferring that you were going down that path from you listing his “li’l more than double his bodyweight” squat and deadlift. Some people you appreciate for their pound for pound strength, and some people you appreciate for the overall massive amount of weight being moved.

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Also, how can you say he never seriously pursued it? His entire life from his freshman year of highschool was powerlifting.[/quote]
From his freshman year of highschool to when he was 24 was about lifting. That’s only like 9 years, all of which well before most strength athletes will hit their largest weights. I mean it was a decent chunk of time, but it’s nothing compared to the amount of time most others had to devote to get to a similar level.

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
His bodyfat comes into play because you called him the most impressive physical specimen ever, or whatever you wrote, and he’s quite fat.[/quote]
Not following this. “Most impressive physical specimen” doesn’t have to mean leanest. I’m impressed with Dorian Yates in a very different way than I’m impressed with Mark Henry or Hossein Rezazadeh or Vasily Alekseyev. You can be an impressive physical specimen without being lean or aesthetic.

I am impressed by the strength and size and power there. Especially as easily as it came to Mark. Maybe people don’t understand the definitions of the words “physical” and “specimen”. They do not specify metrics for qualification. Mark Henry is an incredibly impressive physical specimen and so is Phil Heath; just in totally different ways.[/quote]

No worries, bud. Wasn’t trying to be dismissive of his strength feats, though that’s probably how it came across. Was just using that as a kind of point of reference.

His wiki page said he started lifting at 10. Have no idea if that’s accurate, but I see your point. For a 24 year old kid (think about that) to do that is pretty insane.

I see what you’re saying about physical dimensions. Julius Peppers is a physical specimen, but so is Shane Hammond. They’re on opposite ends of the spectrum but both are freakishly athletic.

Your argument definitely has legs, there’s just a handful of other dudes that fit in the conversation.

38

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Your argument definitely has legs, there’s just a handful of other dudes that fit in the conversation. [/quote]
Well yeah it can never really be anything more than my opinion haha.

I am always fascinated by people’s natural physical talents (not even saying natural as in non-steroids, just natural as in, it comes easily to them). Some guys can run a 4.4 40 and not even realize that they’re anything special, because it was easy to them.

Rick Weil, LEGENDARY bench presser literally never had to try that hard to set world raw bench records in two weight classes that stand to this day (30 years later…). He said the hardest thing he ever did was get his degree. Bench pressing was easy, and he was shocked no one was ever able to beat his record since it wasn’t even that much of a challenge for him lol. 556 @ 181!

Jeremy Hoornstra is a bit similar. I actually heard that someone saw him benching at the college gym and afterwards went up and said “You realize that was a world record right?” Then J Ho was like “Oh, I guess I should compete…” Pretty much the same with Ray Williams. He had no concept of how strong he actually was until someone told him, simply because it all came very naturally. He assumed powerlifters were all going to be way stronger than he was until someone told him “No actually you’re already out squatting pretty much all of them in the world…” rofl.

Mark is one of those types who, like you said, was just built to move heavy things. Has anyone ever seen him load a barbell? I shit you not, he grabs a 45 with one hand and just kinda slaps it on one handed like you’d do with a 5 lol. He’s probably never even stopped to consider how not normal that is.

39

I dont think its silly.

You are underestimating the potential of steroids.

Just look natural ( So called ) bodybuilders and Pro Bodybuilders you can understand the HUGE difference.

That huge difference also translates into strength.

Do you really think steroids adds only %10 or so strength ?

World Record Deadlift is 1015 Lbs now. So without steroids he would be able to deadlift 900 Lbs ? I call this really BS.

600 Lb deadlift his huge accomplishment and lots of people are telling lies.

40

Yeah yeah, I am sure lifetime drug free Shw athlete can deadlift 1000 Lbs easier.

Steroids add nothing.

What a bullshit…

We are talking about 80 times more testesterone and MUCH MORE Muscle mass here.

Its very illogical to assume that STEROIDS does not add much strength.

They are DAMN EFFECTIVE.

Lots of Powerlifters would struggle with 400 Lbs Benchpress and 600 Lbs Deadlift if steroids were never invented.

Before 1950’s Benchpress record was stood at about 360 Lbs.

One is belong to Georg Hackenscmidth, and this guy was wrestler too and beated about 3000 guys.

But he had only 360 Lbs. Because he was not using steroids.

Another evidence for this is, World Strongest Men competetions.

Steroids are allowed in this competetion, because without steroids, you cant expect men to achieve those performance. ( Lifting cars, etc. ).

You are too much underestimating the importance of steroids.

Mark Henry has %22 Bodyfat and has a lean mass of 289 Lbs.

That is about same as Ronnie Coleman and Jay Cutler.

Claiming both guys are Natural is that claiming you can live without Heart, or Oxygen.

In the internet I’ve read lots of comments about 500 Lbs Bench and 800 Lbs deadlift, but when I go to gym I cant see it.

In the internet everybody is 6 Ft 3" and Millionaire, and dating with models, but in reality they are very few.

I am not saying some guys are genetically blessed.

They are, but genetics are not so important as you think.

Usually steroid users defend this card, in other to convince other people that, they have done this naturally. So people would think that “Oh, this guy has great genetics, but I dont, so even I inject my self steroids, he would be superior”.

Steroid users does not want competetion. Otherwise everyone would inject steroids and come close to their strength and size.

I can prove this with Ted Arcidi.

Ted Arcidi is 5 Ft 11". He said that, when he was graduated from highschool he was only 165 lbs.

He said his first Benchpress attempt was only 170 Lbs 4 Reps.

This guy has broken a world record. He benchpressed 660 Lbs Raw.

660 Lbs!

How many people would consider him as genetic freak with his starting benchpress and physique ?

He used steroids, because you cant have over 20" arms and some kind of definition on your chest at 5 Ft 11" 285 Lbs.

It’s obvious.

If he never used steroids he would benchpressing 350-400 Lbs.

The truth is, lots of steroid users ( And hiders ), are also bench pressing 350-400 Lbs and claiming that “They are all natural”. Its a huge lie.