[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Which position do you all prefer? The I dream of genie position, the clean rack position or using straps as handles?[/quote]
The I dream of genie position seems to be the most secure for me, granted I only have a 315 max front squat so I am not really an authority. [/quote]
I prefer the clean position unless the bar has pig tails, in which case I prefer the doggy position.
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Which position do you all prefer? The I dream of genie position, the clean rack position or using straps as handles?[/quote]
olympic style is the only position that feels comfortable for me.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
Even IF we accept that front squats are at least as sensible to train the quads ON PAPER, they fail to be so in practice! Why? Because except for rank beginners and highly proficient front squatters nobody can use significant weights to elicit quad hypertrophy.[/quote]
Not sure how you define a “highly proficient front squatter”, but it’s not exactly rare to see muscular people moving big weights in the front squat.
[/quote]
Missing my point. See my response to Ryan where I used myself as an example. That is why I asked for specific numeric examples where FS can work well and where not.[/quote]
Are you suggesting that back strength doesn’t increase at the same rate as quad strength? I’m trying to understand the reasoning of why this might work for beginners but stop working for intermediates.[/quote]
Well, my point is pretty simple and not really controversial. Being able to front squat with reasonable weights for one’s quad strength is a function of (A) upper body mobility, (B) upper back strength (endurance), and (C) technique/form.
My point is that many intermediate lifters, having never properly learned and trained the front squats early on in their training career but hit back squats/leg press/leg ext. etc hard, will not be able to use enough weight for front squats to train their quads since they lack (A), (B), and (C).
Beginners might get away with front squats, since their quads are not well developed and subpar (A),(B), and (C) will not hold them back for now.
Now we have lifters who spend enough time front squatting (early on) in their training career and hence (A),(B), and (C) will not hold them back as much and they can use front squats well for quad hypertrophy. Those are the lifters I called highly proficient in FS.
I think the majority of lifters fall into the first category, hence why I think recommending FS for quad hypertrophy to be questionable.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Which position do you all prefer? The I dream of genie position, the clean rack position or using straps as handles?[/quote]
The I dream of genie position seems to be the most secure for me, granted I only have a 315 max front squat so I am not really an authority. [/quote]
I normally do strap grip but went back to mess with the cross grip after a convo with stronghold and him saying you can do well with it. I like that too now
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Which position do you all prefer? The I dream of genie position, the clean rack position or using straps as handles?[/quote]
The I dream of genie position seems to be the most secure for me, granted I only have a 315 max front squat so I am not really an authority. [/quote]
I prefer the clean position unless the bar has pig tails, in which case I prefer the doggy position. [/quote]
Lol
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Which position do you all prefer? The I dream of genie position, the clean rack position or using straps as handles?[/quote]
The I dream of genie position seems to be the most secure for me, granted I only have a 315 max front squat so I am not really an authority. [/quote]
I prefer the clean position unless the bar has pig tails, in which case I prefer the doggy position. [/quote]
OUTSTANDING ANSWER
Hey Yogi, good to see you over here
I never knew you were also a big fan of high rep front squats. They are my personal staple exercise!!! I freaking love them
I blew some disks in my upper spine when I was 19 and have never been able to load a heavy bar directly over my spine since.
Somehow front squats and deadlifts do not cause any complications for me
I tried ramping the weights up on back squats over the years and no matter how patient and light of weights I was using I’d eventually injure myself over and over
With Front Squats litterally all my problems disappeared. I’ve used 5 x 5 for front squats and feel I could do heavy singles if I wanted with NO fear of any uneccessary load on my spine. That being said high reps are still my petsonal favorite
As far as limiting factors of the upper back with front squats I have never had this problem. The only limiting factors I have come across is the large amounts of oxygen required to drive through a high rep set or having enough mental toughness to keep driving reps when your quads are screaming and you could end the pain by just racking the bar, lol
I guess another reason some people may not like front swuats and especially high reps is that the amount of weight able to be used may hurt their ego. For myself I push hard and the weights I move would probably not impress many
Meh…I still LUV the front squat 
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
Even IF we accept that front squats are at least as sensible to train the quads ON PAPER, they fail to be so in practice! Why? Because except for rank beginners and highly proficient front squatters nobody can use significant weights to elicit quad hypertrophy.[/quote]
Not sure how you define a “highly proficient front squatter”, but it’s not exactly rare to see muscular people moving big weights in the front squat.
[/quote]
Missing my point. See my response to Ryan where I used myself as an example. That is why I asked for specific numeric examples where FS can work well and where not.[/quote]
Are you suggesting that back strength doesn’t increase at the same rate as quad strength? I’m trying to understand the reasoning of why this might work for beginners but stop working for intermediates.[/quote]
Well, my point is pretty simple and not really controversial. Being able to front squat with reasonable weights for one’s quad strength is a function of (A) upper body mobility, (B) upper back strength (endurance), and (C) technique/form.
My point is that many intermediate lifters, having never properly learned and trained the front squats early on in their training career but hit back squats/leg press/leg ext. etc hard, will not be able to use enough weight for front squats to train their quads since they lack (A), (B), and (C).
Beginners might get away with front squats, since their quads are not well developed and subpar (A),(B), and (C) will not hold them back for now.
Now we have lifters who spend enough time front squatting (early on) in their training career and hence (A),(B), and (C) will not hold them back as much and they can use front squats well for quad hypertrophy. Those are the lifters I called highly proficient in FS.
I think the majority of lifters fall into the first category, hence why I think recommending FS for quad hypertrophy to be questionable.[/quote]
I think you are dissecting this whole debate of your favored back squat over the front too much and your argument is more theory that belongs on paper than actual practice
To sum it up: you believe form and weights used in the front squat to be your main sources to be argumentative in favour of the back squat
I strongly state that hypertrophy (in theory AND practice) comes from progressive overload. With squatting being one of the most demanding exercises I believe most serious trainers can build up their poundages and develop the form required over a short period of committed work to the front squat; I hope you are not suggesting this is NOT acceptable in favour of getting under the heaviest load possible from the get go…AGAIN, progressive overload is the foundation for hypertophy and you CAN infact increase the working loads significantly through years of training
To argue your point specifically should everyone only train the back squat and forget about bench presses, overhead presses, rows and bodyweight exercises primarily because we can squat with more weight than ANY of the afforementioned exercises
Sure, sure…load IS important but ONLY relative to each movement performed so arguing the back squat is superior for this reason alone is not a strong debate.
Am I the only one around here who feels a massive abdominal contraction coming out of the hole in front squats? I’ve never found my upper back to be the limiting factor-- Usually it’s my core, and the rest of the time it’s my quads.
I’m talking about higher rep sets, usually in the 10-15 rep range.
[quote]JaggedG wrote:
Am I the only one around here who feels a massive abdominal contraction coming out of the hole in front squats? I’ve never found my upper back to be the limiting factor-- Usually it’s my core, and the rest of the time it’s my quads.
I’m talking about higher rep sets, usually in the 10-15 rep range.[/quote]
No, I have as well. Unfortunately, it is a sign that you are not doing them properly (straight back).
[quote]ToolManSam wrote:
I think you are dissecting this whole debate of your favored back squat over the front too much and your argument is more theory that belongs on paper than actual practice
To sum it up: you believe form and weights used in the front squat to be your main sources to be argumentative in favour of the back squat
I strongly state that hypertrophy (in theory AND practice) comes from progressive overload. With squatting being one of the most demanding exercises I believe most serious trainers can build up their poundages and develop the form required over a short period of committed work to the front squat; I hope you are not suggesting this is NOT acceptable in favour of getting under the heaviest load possible from the get go…AGAIN, progressive overload is the foundation for hypertophy and you CAN infact increase the working loads significantly through years of training
To argue your point specifically should everyone only train the back squat and forget about bench presses, overhead presses, rows and bodyweight exercises primarily because we can squat with more weight than ANY of the afforementioned exercises
Sure, sure…load IS important but ONLY relative to each movement performed so arguing the back squat is superior for this reason alone is not a strong debate.[/quote]
Never go full retard.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]ToolManSam wrote:
I think you are dissecting this whole debate of your favored back squat over the front too much and your argument is more theory that belongs on paper than actual practice
To sum it up: you believe form and weights used in the front squat to be your main sources to be argumentative in favour of the back squat
I strongly state that hypertrophy (in theory AND practice) comes from progressive overload. With squatting being one of the most demanding exercises I believe most serious trainers can build up their poundages and develop the form required over a short period of committed work to the front squat; I hope you are not suggesting this is NOT acceptable in favour of getting under the heaviest load possible from the get go…AGAIN, progressive overload is the foundation for hypertophy and you CAN infact increase the working loads significantly through years of training
To argue your point specifically should everyone only train the back squat and forget about bench presses, overhead presses, rows and bodyweight exercises primarily because we can squat with more weight than ANY of the afforementioned exercises
Sure, sure…load IS important but ONLY relative to each movement performed so arguing the back squat is superior for this reason alone is not a strong debate.[/quote]
Never go full retard.[/quote]
Never? Lol
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]JaggedG wrote [abridged]:
…massive abdominal contraction…[/quote]
No, I have as well. Unfortunately, it is a sign that you are not doing them properly (straight back).[/quote]
Seriously? I thought it was supposed to be felt in the abs. By “straight back” do you mean the back should remain vertical throughout the rep, or are you talking about rounding?
[quote]JaggedG wrote:
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]JaggedG wrote [abridged]:
…massive abdominal contraction…[/quote]
No, I have as well. Unfortunately, it is a sign that you are not doing them properly (straight back).[/quote]
Seriously? I thought it was supposed to be felt in the abs. By “straight back” do you mean the back should remain vertical throughout the rep, or are you talking about rounding?[/quote]
No, not like that. You will not feel it in the abs if you do fronts with a properly straight (extended) back. Of course, that doesn’t mean that the abs won’t be working at all.
However, if you do fronts without an extended back (like the vast majority of non-Olympic weightlifter) then there is a good chance that the abs have to work in overdrive at some point to keep any form of stability since the back isn’t given any.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]JaggedG wrote:
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]JaggedG wrote [abridged]:
…massive abdominal contraction…[/quote]
No, I have as well. Unfortunately, it is a sign that you are not doing them properly (straight back).[/quote]
Seriously? I thought it was supposed to be felt in the abs. By “straight back” do you mean the back should remain vertical throughout the rep, or are you talking about rounding?[/quote]
No, not like that. You will not feel it in the abs if you do fronts with a properly straight (extended) back. Of course, that doesn’t mean that the abs won’t be working at all.
However, if you do fronts without an extended back (like the vast majority of non-Olympic weightlifter) then there is a good chance that the abs have to work in overdrive at some point to keep any form of stability since the back isn’t given any.[/quote]
Wouldn’t that just mean the low back takes the force jsut like a rounded leaning forward back squat. Since that is what you are doing. You kinda are forced with a front squat to stay upright. Not sure how you can not do them upright
[quote]JaggedG wrote:
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]JaggedG wrote [abridged]:
…massive abdominal contraction…[/quote]
No, I have as well. Unfortunately, it is a sign that you are not doing them properly (straight back).[/quote]
Seriously? I thought it was supposed to be felt in the abs. By “straight back” do you mean the back should remain vertical throughout the rep, or are you talking about rounding?[/quote]
It’s not a sign of anything except the muscular endurance of your RA and TA. You can be doing a picture perfect FS with a neutral spine and still feel an intense isometric contraction of your abdominals.
Think of your core as a 3D box. The top and bottom are your diaphragm and pelvic floor, respectively. The back of the box is your erectors (among others), the sides of the box are your internal and external obliques, and the front is your TA and RA. A sufficient contraction of any of these muscles will by design cause a co-contraction of the others.
Sherrington’s Laws tell us that a strong contraction in one muscle causes tension in other nearby muscles. The co-tension from these muscles will magnify the overall strength of the structure (or in this case, the overall stability of the core.)
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]JaggedG wrote:
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]JaggedG wrote [abridged]:
…massive abdominal contraction…[/quote]
No, I have as well. Unfortunately, it is a sign that you are not doing them properly (straight back).[/quote]
Seriously? I thought it was supposed to be felt in the abs. By “straight back” do you mean the back should remain vertical throughout the rep, or are you talking about rounding?[/quote]
No, not like that. You will not feel it in the abs if you do fronts with a properly straight (extended) back. Of course, that doesn’t mean that the abs won’t be working at all.
However, if you do fronts without an extended back (like the vast majority of non-Olympic weightlifter) then there is a good chance that the abs have to work in overdrive at some point to keep any form of stability since the back isn’t given any.[/quote]
Wouldn’t that just mean the low back takes the force jsut like a rounded leaning forward back squat. Since that is what you are doing. You kinda are forced with a front squat to stay upright. Not sure how you can not do them upright
[/quote]
Well, it is meaningful to divide the erector spinae into upper and lower part as you know. Whenever one of them rounds (the muscles are relaxed then) the passive structures (disks, ligaments) have to take up the sheer forces.
Look at almost any heavy front squat video by non-WLer and you will see a rounding of the upper erector spinae after they come out of the hole. The lower erector spinae can be rounded but is typically less so due to the use of a lifting belt (and/or a strong contraction of the abs). So, you certainly CAN and most people DO “thug up” a front squat but typically to a lesser degree than back squats.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]JaggedG wrote:
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]JaggedG wrote [abridged]:
…massive abdominal contraction…[/quote]
No, I have as well. Unfortunately, it is a sign that you are not doing them properly (straight back).[/quote]
Seriously? I thought it was supposed to be felt in the abs. By “straight back” do you mean the back should remain vertical throughout the rep, or are you talking about rounding?[/quote]
No, not like that. You will not feel it in the abs if you do fronts with a properly straight (extended) back. Of course, that doesn’t mean that the abs won’t be working at all.
However, if you do fronts without an extended back (like the vast majority of non-Olympic weightlifter) then there is a good chance that the abs have to work in overdrive at some point to keep any form of stability since the back isn’t given any.[/quote]
So your abs ARE working but if you feel them working you’re doing tge front squats wrong? LMFAO
NO wonder you think no one on this forum knows how to squat properly. I think you need to stop posting as an authoritative figure on this thread
[quote]ToolManSam wrote:
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]JaggedG wrote:
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]JaggedG wrote [abridged]:
…massive abdominal contraction…[/quote]
No, I have as well. Unfortunately, it is a sign that you are not doing them properly (straight back).[/quote]
Seriously? I thought it was supposed to be felt in the abs. By “straight back” do you mean the back should remain vertical throughout the rep, or are you talking about rounding?[/quote]
No, not like that. You will not feel it in the abs if you do fronts with a properly straight (extended) back. Of course, that doesn’t mean that the abs won’t be working at all.
However, if you do fronts without an extended back (like the vast majority of non-Olympic weightlifter) then there is a good chance that the abs have to work in overdrive at some point to keep any form of stability since the back isn’t given any.[/quote]
So your abs ARE working but if you feel them working you’re doing tge front squats wrong? LMFAO
NO wonder you think no one on this forum knows how to squat properly. I think you need to stop posting as an authoritative figure on this thread[/quote]
Ah, you again. While I understand you are not the sharpest, is it really too much to ask that you at least pause for a second and think that perhaps people who have accomplished much more than you have (without even resorting to AAS like you) know a bit more than you about the subject? I know it boggles the mind.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]ToolManSam wrote:
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]JaggedG wrote:
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]JaggedG wrote [abridged]:
…massive abdominal contraction…[/quote]
No, I have as well. Unfortunately, it is a sign that you are not doing them properly (straight back).[/quote]
Seriously? I thought it was supposed to be felt in the abs. By “straight back” do you mean the back should remain vertical throughout the rep, or are you talking about rounding?[/quote]
No, not like that. You will not feel it in the abs if you do fronts with a properly straight (extended) back. Of course, that doesn’t mean that the abs won’t be working at all.
However, if you do fronts without an extended back (like the vast majority of non-Olympic weightlifter) then there is a good chance that the abs have to work in overdrive at some point to keep any form of stability since the back isn’t given any.[/quote]
So your abs ARE working but if you feel them working you’re doing tge front squats wrong? LMFAO
NO wonder you think no one on this forum knows how to squat properly. I think you need to stop posting as an authoritative figure on this thread[/quote]
Ah, you again. While I understand you are not the sharpest, is it really too much to ask that you at least pause for a second and think that perhaps people who have accomplished much more than you have (without even resorting to AAS like you) know a bit more than you about the subject? I know it boggles the mind.[/quote]
BUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRN!!!
lol.