High Rep Front Squatting

Training
41

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
If you are gonna call people out for proof on front squats and leg size at least back up your argument. Let’s see how much back squats has made you an aesthetic god.[/quote]

This is all you got from this? Pathetic. Your reasoning skills remind me of some guy who got banned.[/quote]

That was your reasoning. It makes your legs bigger and better right. So why not prove it. You called others out? Seems reasonable. You’ve made callouts all over yet have never shown a reason to respect those. If you’re gonna call people out you kinda gotta have some pics first for some respect and actually back things up. It’s not that hard really

And your three paragraphs of arguments are just as poor. Absolutely no support you any of those arguments so why should I dignify a more thought response?[/quote]

(1) I didn’t “call” people out per se. For the discussion and my point it matters what you can roughly front, back squat, and how advanced you are. A beginner could make 60-100kg FS work for quad hypertrophy but someone intermediate cannot. Take me for example.

To actually stress my quads I would have to rep out something like 140-160kg on FS, but I can’t do that since you upper back mobility and strength endurance will not allow me to do that at THIS POINT. However, back squats and leg press allow me to load them properly.

(2) Check my old training thread. There are some pictures of my legs. They are not of good quality but enough to show that my legs are certainly up to snuff. I also have some older squat vids somewhere on here. I’m pretty sure that my legs are bigger than yours and I can squat more than you.

Do I get a cookie now?

42

Are we discussing “perfect” front squats and “perfect” back squats here? Or are we just talking about “good enough” front squats where you “feel” the quads working and thus have some amount of MMC?

But mostly I’m just not following the reasoning behind this: “Because except for rank beginners and highly proficient front squatters nobody can use significant weights to elicit quad hypertrophy.”

  1. What is a significant enough weight to elicit quad hypertrophy? (given that the discussion started with talking about 10x10)
  2. Why is MMC (perceived “feel”) not a good enough judge that it’s working?
  3. How does back fatigue and form play into all of this?
  4. Whatever I missed.

Or are we talking about how back squats are a better movement for quad hypertrophy than front squats, regardless of rep range? (Which, I’d pretty much agree with, at least when using an “olympic” style form vs rippetoe-style.)

43

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
Even IF we accept that front squats are at least as sensible to train the quads ON PAPER, they fail to be so in practice! Why? Because except for rank beginners and highly proficient front squatters nobody can use significant weights to elicit quad hypertrophy.

The study basically supports my view - just look at the pathetic weights used.

“Subjects lifted nearly 90% of their body mass during the back squat (61.8 ± 6/18.6 kg) and almost 70% of their body mass during the front squat (48.5±6/14.1 kg).”

In real life for the vast majority of lifters (especially intermediates) the discrepancy between 70-80% of the two squat forms will be able very large and hence any relative EMG activation advantage for the FS will be KILLED by the effects of the increased weights for the BS.

Also, I don’t get in what perfect world you guys live, but it seems you completely ignore FORM ISSUES. Becoming proficient in the back squat is hard enough (even with good coaching), but front squats?! Fuck me, that is even worse since it requires not only hip but also upper body mobility. I pretty sure almost nobody on THIS very forum can properly back squat (some of the PLers can of course), let alone FS for reps.

If you disagree, I would like to hear SPECIFIC squat numbers and how advanced you are in terms of leg size.

@Safer for lower back

  • It has been shown that front squats stress the lower back MORE than back squats
  • If you experience pain it is in almost ALL cases from BAD form
  • All you show is that for you FS are easier to get right than back squats; nothing wrong with that but not an argument per se

@Back squat is “all posterior chain”

  • This is simply NOT true; hamstrings are NOT a primary muscle group in back squats
  • Glutes are more involved than hamstrings but certainly NOT more than quads for all sensible squat executions
  • I don’t care what you think you “feel” - it is a very noisy measurement at best.

@Long femur stuff

  • I call bullshit; you just haven’t learned to properly squat; I don’t blame you since most lifter will never achieve that
  • I give you that for some it is more difficult to pick good form up than others but that doesn’t mean you can’t get it done[/quote]

Lol get a load of this know it all haha. Easy guy

44

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
If you are gonna call people out for proof on front squats and leg size at least back up your argument. Let’s see how much back squats has made you an aesthetic god.[/quote]

This is all you got from this? Pathetic. Your reasoning skills remind me of some guy who got banned.[/quote]

That was your reasoning. It makes your legs bigger and better right. So why not prove it. You called others out? Seems reasonable. You’ve made callouts all over yet have never shown a reason to respect those. If you’re gonna call people out you kinda gotta have some pics first for some respect and actually back things up. It’s not that hard really

And your three paragraphs of arguments are just as poor. Absolutely no support you any of those arguments so why should I dignify a more thought response?[/quote]

(1) I didn’t “call” people out per se. For the discussion and my point it matters what you can roughly front, back squat, and how advanced you are. A beginner could make 60-100kg FS work for quad hypertrophy but someone intermediate cannot. Take me for example.

To actually stress my quads I would have to rep out something like 140-160kg on FS, but I can’t do that since you upper back mobility and strength endurance will not allow me to do that at THIS POINT. However, back squats and leg press allow me to load them properly.

(2) Check my old training thread. There are some pictures of my legs. They are not of good quality but enough to show that my legs are certainly up to snuff. I also have some older squat vids somewhere on here. I’m pretty sure that my legs are bigger than yours and I can squat more than you.

Do I get a cookie now?[/quote]

Cookies give you da beetus

I just disagree with the premise that a certain weight is needed to elicit stress for growth. I haven’t really used heavier weights for chest yets it’s been growing all year same with shoulders. Back is actually weaker in some exercises yet better than last year. Which is why I don’t get why it matters you can’t super load the front squat when the Important fact is that the quads get torched on it

45

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Let’s see how much back squats has made you an aesthetic god. [/quote]

The back squat and ‘locked knee’ straight leg deadlifts have been my primary leg movements for over twenty years. High rep; low rep and everything in between. I’m not claiming it’s the only way; but I’d say it worked pretty well for me.

46

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Let’s see how much back squats has made you an aesthetic god. [/quote]

The back squat and ‘locked knee’ straight leg deadlifts have been my primary leg movements for over twenty years. High rep; low rep and everything in between. I’m not claiming it’s the only way; but I’d say it worked pretty well for me.

[/quote]
Back looked sick on that rear double bi

47

I have back squatted 500(earlier this year), but when I tried to maintain/improve my strength at that point I started having all kinds of flare ups: lower back (already have a pinched sciatic that flares up occasionally-this made it worse/more often), hips, shoulders.

I have front squatted 375 and was on my way to fs’ing 400 by the end of the summer, but career and life stuff got in the way and I have lost most of that. At that level, I was having no issues whatsoever, not even knees. I have been following 5/3/1 for a couple years now, and was using the same protocol for front squat performed right after back squat. VMO got slightly bigger, and I see better definition on my quads but no serious growth (I mark that up mainly to 531 even though I was finishing with a rep-out a la DC after my Joker sets).

I have been focused on my back squat for years, but never saw any real difference on my hams (glutes and hips definitely got bigger though, haha). I am currently on a ship, so I have been unable to back squat. I have access to a rack - of sorts… It’s a Smith machine with adjustable hooks and safety bars on the front of it. Due to this and the movement of the ship, I have completely dropped back squatting since early August but have still been front squatting. Probably kept most of my quad development, but no real change on my hams. They are probably better now actually, since I am 8 workouts deep into Dan John’s 10K swing routine. Front squatting with that, but it is low rep and like I said I have dropped way back on the weights (used 265 the other day - and it was challenging, if for no other reason than the pre-fatigue from the swings).

Anyway, the point of my rambling is after being a back squat disciple for years, I am considering dropping it from my normal rotation and doing front squats and deads for lower body. I just haven’t felt as beaten down/sore form just front squatting (ever) as I have from heavy back squatting.

One thing I did like that I have done in the past is after my heaviest set on 531 was when I would drop the weight down and crank out a 20-rep set. Can’t say I gained anything from it, but it was a smoker and I dug it.

48

Another good high volume front squatting routine I have followed several times is this: 14 days straight of front squatting (5x5) everyday. Start with 50% of your 1RM (estimate if you don’t actually know it), and add 5 pounds to the bar every day. On the last day you are doing the same workout with 65 more pounds than you started with.

I’ve never measured, but the 'ole eyeball says I gained a little size when I’ve done this, and form felt spot on after finishing this and going back to normal routine.

I seem to remember getting this from Pavel somewhere, but I’ve tried searching online for it again and can’t find it…so I have no idea where I got this from.

49

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
@Safer for lower back

  • It has been shown that front squats stress the lower back MORE than back squats
  • If you experience pain it is in almost ALL cases from BAD form
  • All you show is that for you FS are easier to get right than back squats; nothing wrong with that but not an argument per se[/quote]

but yet, we have a thread full of people who find front squats way easier on their lower back. If that’s due to them being inherently easier on your back, or just an easier squat variation to get right, who cares? Surely the important point here is that, for whatever reason, fronts squats seem more lower back friendly?

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
@Back squat is “all posterior chain”

  • This is simply NOT true; hamstrings are NOT a primary muscle group in back squats
  • Glutes are more involved than hamstrings but certainly NOT more than quads for all sensible squat executions
  • I don’t care what you think you “feel” - it is a very noisy measurement at best.[/quote]

I don’t think anyone said that the hamstrings are a prime mover in back squats, but it has definitely been the case for me that back squatting only ever seemed to develop my glutes. As proud as I am of my badonkadonk, I prefer now to do a squat variation which’ll toast my quads (and toast them it does).

As for not caring about “feel”, well, I don’t know how to respond to that. Bodybuilders have been using that as a measure of exercise efficiency since time immemorial. When I flat bench with a bar I only feel it in my shoulders, but when I use dumbells I feel it in my chest. Should I just ignore this and keep using the bar?

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
@Long femur stuff

  • I call bullshit; you just haven’t learned to properly squat; I don’t blame you since most lifter will never achieve that
  • I give you that for some it is more difficult to pick good form up than others but that doesn’t mean you can’t get it done[/quote]

lol, um, ok? Are we just ignoring the fact that different lever lengths affect exercise selection? I can accept that people of all lever types could probably learn to back squat efficiently, but if the front squat is already doing that for them, and taking focus off the glutes and putting it on the quads (which would most likely be the reason for choosing FS in the first place) then what’s the need?

No one is saying that back squats are bad, and for some (Bluecollar for example looking awesome in his vid) they may well be all you need for some awesome quads. For others though, front squats are the superior choice.

And your assertion that you can’t load them up heavy enough for growth is just plain incorrect.

One last thing: constantly asking for pics and numbers makes you sound like a certain ex poster here. We get it. You’re a big strong guy with an awesome squat. There’s no need to be a dick about it.

50

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
If you are gonna call people out for proof on front squats and leg size at least back up your argument. Let’s see how much back squats has made you an aesthetic god.[/quote]

This is all you got from this? Pathetic. Your reasoning skills remind me of some guy who got banned.[/quote]
My upper/mid back is the problem now as I work front squats back in. Fatigue and cramping. Using straps and a box for depth control. Touch and go.

51

I will say I think the case of choosing one or the other is on a case-by-case basis depending on the lifter, their goals, abilities, etc. There are generally few reasons why most people can’t incorporate both versions into their plan, if they wanted to. But with that said…

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
Even IF we accept that front squats are at least as sensible to train the quads ON PAPER, they fail to be so in practice! Why? Because except for rank beginners and highly proficient front squatters nobody can use significant weights to elicit quad hypertrophy.[/quote]
Not sure how you define a “highly proficient front squatter”, but it’s not exactly rare to see muscular people moving big weights in the front squat.

^ 315x3, 405x2, 500x2, 535x1, 550x1

^ 135x12, 225x12, 405x10, 585x4, 495x10

^ 2 plates x 10, 3 plates x 8, 4 plates x 5

52

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

^ 135x12, 225x12, 405x10, 585x4, 495x10

[/quote]

As soon as I saw you posted a bunch of front squat videos, I was hoping to see this Ronnie one. That shit is bonkers.

53

niiiiiiice! That Ronnie vid is unreal.

54

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
Even IF we accept that front squats are at least as sensible to train the quads ON PAPER, they fail to be so in practice! Why? Because except for rank beginners and highly proficient front squatters nobody can use significant weights to elicit quad hypertrophy.[/quote]

Not sure how you define a “highly proficient front squatter”, but it’s not exactly rare to see muscular people moving big weights in the front squat.
[/quote]

Missing my point. See my response to Ryan where I used myself as an example. That is why I asked for specific numeric examples where FS can work well and where not.

55

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Let’s see how much back squats has made you an aesthetic god. [/quote]

The back squat and ‘locked knee’ straight leg deadlifts have been my primary leg movements for over twenty years. High rep; low rep and everything in between. I’m not claiming it’s the only way; but I’d say it worked pretty well for me.

[/quote]

Don’t believe my comment was to you. My comment was to the person saying front squats can’t be used for hypertrophy and back squats are superior and acting as an authority on the issue

56

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
My comment was to the person saying front squats can’t be used for hypertrophy and back squats are superior and acting as an authority on the issue[/quote]

Excellent summary.

57

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
My comment was to the person saying front squats can’t be used for hypertrophy and back squats are superior and acting as an authority on the issue[/quote]

Excellent summary.[/quote]
It’s always easier to say something is wrong rather than prove it’s correct. Would you mind posting any sort of vid for my viewing pleasure.

58

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
Even IF we accept that front squats are at least as sensible to train the quads ON PAPER, they fail to be so in practice! Why? Because except for rank beginners and highly proficient front squatters nobody can use significant weights to elicit quad hypertrophy.[/quote]

Not sure how you define a “highly proficient front squatter”, but it’s not exactly rare to see muscular people moving big weights in the front squat.
[/quote]

Missing my point. See my response to Ryan where I used myself as an example. That is why I asked for specific numeric examples where FS can work well and where not.[/quote]
Are you suggesting that back strength doesn’t increase at the same rate as quad strength? I’m trying to understand the reasoning of why this might work for beginners but stop working for intermediates.

59

Which position do you all prefer? The I dream of genie position, the clean rack position or using straps as handles?

60

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Which position do you all prefer? The I dream of genie position, the clean rack position or using straps as handles?[/quote]

The I dream of genie position seems to be the most secure for me, granted I only have a 315 max front squat so I am not really an authority.