HFT is Unpopular

[A_Ninny_Mouse]

[quote]forevernade wrote:
If I were to prescribe a 5-6 day a week total body program I would agree with C_C.

For those who havn’t read much on Broz stuff, here are a few excerpts and summaries.

“He recommends maxing out on each lift every day, so doing max squats 6 days a week, max benching on 3 of those days, and deadlifting (around 80%, harder on the back) on the other 3 days with very little supplementary work”

Day 1, 3, 5
Ramp to 1RM Squat then ramp back down.
Ramp to 1RM Squat (again) if still feeling light (max 50 reps/day).
Ramp to 1RM Paused ‘speed’ Bench.
5x(5-10) Either Pullups, Bench grip bent over row OR Rear dumbell flies.

Day 2, 4, 6
Ramp to 1RM Squat.
10x3x75%1RM ‘speed’ Deadlift.

Day 7 Rest or Ramp to 1RM Squat.

Assistance Additions: Goodmornings for flexibility, Back Ext or Reverse for rehab and warmups, Front Squats for weak legs, Push Press for upper body strength, Curls to balance out triceps or rehab.

He says for Powerlifters to never do Cleans or Front Squats as main lifts. Because we are training 3 lifts, and not 2, we can’t afford to do as much assistance work.

don’t take days off if you have access/availability to train. Go in and at least squat 30-40% or something. Squat the bar for 30 reps. Something! it will hurt, but it will help the adaptation progress faster. Don’t abandon days if you can help it, simply just go in and bob around and do something - anything! Whatever you can do is better then riding the couch.

It implies the intensity of each day is not important to adapting to the workload, but the frequency is. The intensity*frequency is important to peaking strength, but peaking strength cannot be done without the pre-existing work capacity. So if you cannot do a true 1RM, you aren’t actually expected to do a true 1RM, you just do what you can for the day and keep things fast and explosive.[/quote]

Hm.

Would you mind posting a few links for relevant reading material? What you posted is very intriguing.

It sort of reminds me of what Bret Contreras (sp? I know I’m butchering his name) related in an article discussion about his ultra high frequency experiment.

BTW, C_C refers to cephalic_carnage I believe.

[forevernade]

Not allowed to post links to sources outside T-Nation, PM me if you want them. They are from Bodybuilding.com where John Broz does an interview.

Your other option is to simply Copy+Paste the quotes I quoted into google, and they will probably show up the exact page in the 14 page thread.

EDIT: Random question, though related considering we are talking PL in terms of OL techniques.
Does anyone use Weightlifting shoes for the raised heel when benching? It helps me arch more, even if its only a little bit. The larger arch means bigger bench.

[Cephalic_Carnage]

[quote]mch60360 wrote:
For those guys prone to burnout early, I think C_C idea of every fourth cycle through the total body using a deload or light day. So if you are doing total body five days a week, then the fourth day that week is lighter and the fifth day you’re back at it.
[/quote]

You’ve taken that a little out of context, I’m afraid.

It was meant exclusively for programs with lower frequency per bodypart, like once every 5, 6, 7 days or so…

For very high frequency I have some different ideas, and I typed up a huge post on that stuff, which of course didn’t show up.
Not typing all that again… Gah.

FWIW, OP mentioned the longevity aspect? My dad used to treat and monitor various olympic athletes, lifters among them, in the former soviet-controlled Eastern Germany. He’s not a fan.

(Think about some stuff here… what do you do on almost every exercise from clean to leg press? You grip something very tightly and hold onto it for dear life. Lots of stress on the forearm tendons etc… So, you do cleans, bench, deadlift, front squat, back squat which can bother your elbows as well, overhead press, whatever. All week long, every day several of these, and for quite some volume. Those tendons never get a break… Ever. That’s just one problem area though)

[forevernade]

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]mch60360 wrote:
For those guys prone to burnout early, I think C_C idea of every fourth cycle through the total body using a deload or light day. So if you are doing total body five days a week, then the fourth day that week is lighter and the fifth day you’re back at it.
[/quote]

You’ve taken that a little out of context, I’m afraid.

It was meant exclusively for programs with lower frequency per bodypart, like once every 5, 6, 7 days or so…[/quote]

The idea still sticks, but not so strictly. Autoregulation, in the same way CT talks about it, is important to any kind of training, and with HFT it becomes even more important. Having light days would becomes important, but inserting them as an excuse to slack off would prevent you from increasing your work capacity.

[quote]
For very high frequency I have some different ideas, and I typed up a huge post on that stuff, which of course didn’t show up.
Not typing all that again… Gah.[/quote]
If you have time write it up in a word document and post it in this thread later. I am sure we would all like to hear what you have got to say!

[quote]
FWIW, OP mentioned the longevity aspect? My dad used to treat and monitor various olympic athletes, lifters among them, in the former soviet-controlled Eastern Germany. He’s not a fan.

(Think about some stuff here… what do you do on almost every exercise from clean to leg press? You grip something very tightly and hold onto it for dear life. Lots of stress on the forearm tendons etc… So, you do cleans, bench, deadlift, front squat, back squat which can bother your elbows as well, overhead press, whatever. All week long, every day several of these, and for quite some volume. Those tendons never get a break… Ever. That’s just one problem area though)[/quote]

From what I have observed, all crippling upper body problems occur in the shoulders and elbows for both powerlifters and olympic lifters, but for different reasons. Let’s face it, the human upper body sucks, bio-mechanically.

Weightlifters Jerk very frequently and elbow problems occur. Older Weightlifters elbows lock up and the joint reduces in lockout strength and joint mobility, this is what causes some older Australian Weightlifters to move over to Powerlifting in their old age.
Powerlifters Bench infrequently, and still shoulder problems occur. The scapula cant move in a bench press movement so doesn’t respond well after years of no mobility.

All I am saying is frequency can cause problems in certain structures, but so can exercise choice. I would even go so far as to say exercise choice is a bigger offender than training frequency is.

[Cephalic_Carnage]

I’ll get back to you about the other stuff, but what I meant with the out-of-context part is that for higher frequency training I would go more with something like 1 heavy day, 1 very light day (for example… maybe you just go heavy/light depending on the exercise, whatever), repeat. And eventually you may need an actual deload week.

The “one light cycle for every 3 heavy cycles” for the yates routine was also just an example, some might do 2 heavy 1 light, or 4 heavy, 1 light or whatever. If you go 3 heavy, 1 light while 1 cycle = a single day… And you train 6-7 days/cycles a week… Imo that would very likely end up with you burnt out (depending on how the rest of the program is setup and diet etc).

You mentioned autoregulation and yeah, that type of instinctive approach to training does imo apply well to very high frequency training… But that’s different from planned light days or light cycles.

[mch60360]

Didn’t mean to misrepresent you C_C. Just thought it was a good idea to be applied to training. But I get your point about it being for infrequent training.

[Crow]

Alright here are my HFT theories. I’m a believer in Bruce Lee’s thoughts on taking and using what is good from others and discarding what is not useful. This is a personal thing for every one; what works for me might not work for you.

I use a “Bulgurianized” 5-3-1 Program that incorporates the Olympic lifts. I know thats a mouthful. I train 4-7 days in a row. My job/family duties usually dictate my rest days otherwise I would train everyday. So with my 5/3/1 there aren’t training “weeks”. We combine the 12 totals workouts into 6 sessions (more on that later).

I can run through a full cycle in as little as a week and half. Its a simple program with a short menu of exercises: snatch, clean & jerk, back squat, front squat, bench press, deadlift, military press, pullups, T-Bar rows, with the occasional ab work. Thats 9 total exercises, period. After running this program for a while I come to some conclusions (which might change/evolve the more I do it):

1. Snatch or clean everyday. The full versions are better than the power ones. Performing them first allows you optimal performance. They truly prime/activate your CNS for the rest of your session. Low reps 1-2, sometimes 3, are best. You aren’t trying to build hypertrophy, your training perfect technique while trying to generate maximal power.

Without the heavy eccentric strain, high volume, frequency, and intensity can all be maintained. Work up to a daily max, then back of 10-20kg and continue to peform singles and doubles. Increase weight if it gets too easy (and it should). You should be able to build a tolerance to 10-30 reps at or over 90% of your daily max.

I find my perform decreases on day following rest days, so I perform the power versions on those days. I will vary the clean day (sometimes clean only, sometimes clean and jerk, even jerk only sometimes). The OL training obviously is very instinctual.

2. You can squat more often with more intensity and volume than you can deadlift. You can bench press more often with more intensity and volume than you can military press. I think the deadlift just much more CNS intensive than the squat. The military involves more “small” muscles than the bench press. Interesting that they both start from a static start with no elastic preload or stretch reflex. All this means is that you have to work more deloads and less heavy singles or extra sets at the end of your 5-3-1 work sets.

I like the 3,5,1 loading scheme for the squat, bench, deadlift, military. Session 1 3x3 and some heavy singles, Session 2 just 3x5, Session 3 5,3,1 and some heavy singles. Deloads are 3-4x5 at 50-60%.

3. Squat with bench press. Deadlift with military.

4. Throw in front squats every few deadlift sessions or instead of deadlifting during deload periods. Be create with your loading and rep schemes. Just always move the bar fast and squat deep! Rarely will we go above 3-5 reps.

5. Pair T-Bar rows (or any good horizontal rowing) with bench press. Pair pullups with military press. Pullups are better than any other back exercise. Do your rows between every set (including warmups) of your pressing exercises. Be creative with the rep schemes. Some days heavy, some days light, just keep it variable, yet always progressive.

6. Only other accessory exercise that is necessary is abdominal training. All others might be fine exercises and strengthen weak points or fix imbalance, but they also negatively affect your recovery ability, add unnecessary gym time, train improper motor patterns, and create new imbalances. The only exception is if you are rehabbing a specific injury and the exercises have a therapeutic benefit.

7. Dynamic mobility and “movement” stretching is the prefered warmup modality over static stretching.

[mch60360]

Crow, How long do these sessions usually take you to complete?

[Crow]

[quote]mch60360 wrote:
Crow, How long do these sessions usually take you to complete?[/quote]

Usually no longer than 90min.

During the week I get to gym a little before 6AM. So then I perform my dynamic warmup and empty bar complex. I can usually put weight on the bar a little after 6. I plan on 30min. blocks. First 30min. on OLY lift, next 30 min. on either squat or deadlift, last 30 min. on bench/military and rowing combination. Any left over time is spent on abs. I’m in the shower by 730AM. At work by 800AM (btw I work next door to gym). I spend more time on weekends since I’m usually not in a hurry. I don’t bullshit with other members when I train.

[forevernade]

What are some different ways to progress from a low frequency program?

Should we simply start doing 6 days a week, and train at really low intensity, increasing intensity until we are ‘maxing out’?
Should we add days until we are doing 6 days a week?
Or do something in between, taking it in steps?
Or does anyone have the balls to do a ‘Dark Days’ style Broz transition, where you just jump into it full bore and wait and pray that the overtraining is overcome?

[ev1bl]

OP damn how much do you front and backsquat with those quads?

[forevernade]

Lots. When I had quads like that I was fronting 130kg for 5, with undulating 8-15 sets a session, 3 times a week.

EDIT: I had just finished a sheiko 29, and had joined a weightlifting gym, so was sometimes doing 2-a-days for squats or front squats. I am saying this because this experience is the reason I beleive HFT is both possible and potentially good for powerlifting, amongst other things.

[ev1bl]

[quote]forevernade wrote:
Lots. When I had quads like that I was fronting 130kg for 5, with undulating 8-15 sets a session, 3 times a week.

EDIT: I had just finished a sheiko 29, and had joined a weightlifting gym, so was sometimes doing 2-a-days for squats or front squats. I am saying this because this experience is the reason I beleive HFT is both possible and potentially good for powerlifting, amongst other things.[/quote]

Yeah what I meant was what is your PR in the front squat and back squat?

My experience with HFT is good as well.

I am thinking of setting up a squat/bench-rack in my room and do ten 1 min timed singles at 60-70% every morning, front squats and medium grip bench press, for extra volume… not sure how the evening workouts would look yet though.

[forevernade]

That kind of set up works well for bodyweight exercises, because they are so low intensity you can perform them without a warm up. When it comes to raising your max in a lift such as squat, you will always want to warm up and then ramp up, IMO.

If you are doing it to perfect your technique though, then that is a good idea. The only problem I see there is you would be doing it to learn how to squat in a suit or a shirt, and you certainly wouldnt want to be wearing a suit or shirt all day. ouch!

[ev1bl]

[quote]forevernade wrote:
That kind of set up works well for bodyweight exercises, because they are so low intensity you can perform them without a warm up. When it comes to raising your max in a lift such as squat, you will always want to warm up and then ramp up, IMO.

If you are doing it to perfect your technique though, then that is a good idea. The only problem I see there is you would be doing it to learn how to squat in a suit or a shirt, and you certainly wouldnt want to be wearing a suit or shirt all day. ouch![/quote]

Yeah I would obviously need some warmup/work up sets before the singles… Though I do find that when doing a lift everyday I need less warmup before I’m ready. I am talking about 10 singles in ten minutes, not spread out throughout the day.

[justkevin]

[quote]forevernade wrote:
What are some different ways to progress from a low frequency program?

Should we simply start doing 6 days a week, and train at really low intensity, increasing intensity until we are ‘maxing out’?
Should we add days until we are doing 6 days a week?
Or do something in between, taking it in steps?
Or does anyone have the balls to do a ‘Dark Days’ style Broz transition, where you just jump into it full bore and wait and pray that the overtraining is overcome?[/quote]

An idea (the way I decided to start running mine)- using squats/dls as an example.
So I have no idea how well it’ll work but for some sort of example:

• made sure I wasn’t tied into some sort of program that won’t account for the adjustment period, conveniently I’m also moving fairly small (55%) weights anyway
• I cut my volume a bit, cut all the workouts in half and spread out the halves- to give me 3 sessions a week (over 4 days), with a fairly high assistance volume
• 3-4 weeks of this (or however long I want, really) and I’ll bump up the frequency again by putting all my assistance work in PM sessions and doing my main lifts in AM sessions- takes me to 8 sessions/wk over 4 2-a-days
• Then replace half of my assistance volume with lighter versions of my main lifts (or indeed don’t bother replacing them since it’s light), 60% 5’s or 80% 1’s or something similar on a day that I didn’t already work that lift (I’m doing a lot of overhead work and front squats, fyi. This isn’t all SBD). The way this works out with keeping my workout time down it gives me 4 days a week both squatting and pressing.
• Bump up the light lifts to full intensity sessions and drop the assistance down, if I haven’t already. Depending on scheduling I may go from 8 sessions 4/wk to 8 sessions 6/wk here, but squat and press on alternate days (3/wk for each) and throw in olympic lifts to supplement my pulling volume- and because they’re fun.

Edit: So I’d say I’m going with the “in between” option. Bump the frequency up as much as you can on your current level of volume- then intensify by replacing the lower intensity work you used with high intensity work, add a little volume and repeat the process.

[mch60360]

I have done some searching and reading more up on Broz’ thoughts on “bulgarian” for PL/Strongman. I may try a modified verison of these ideas, incorporating some ideas that CROW mentioned. At the moment a few days per week I may only have 45 min to use in the gym, shower, slam food, and be out the door again.

But other days I have 90 mins so days may have to vary. Put I can definatly add cleans regularly among other things. I probably will still only deadlift once a week and seriously autoregulate it at that. We’ll see. I have enjoyed following along with this discussion.

Hopefully if this house thing goes through. I can add a second daily session every now and again and some sled work.

[DixiesFinest]

[quote]heavythrower wrote:

[quote]dumbbellhead wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
Guess I am just lazy.

Or stubborn.

I’m gonna go with stubborn.

Why is this an argument? If squatting heavy once a week is leading to gains and improvement, keep it up. If its not, up the volume.

[/quote]

what is your problem. I have been lifting for 27 years, competed at the state and regional level in PL, throwing, and HG. I am not having a problem with the discussion going on in this thread, in fact, I am learning some stuff and it is intellectually stimulating.

Very good discussion, please continue.
[/quote]

DF’s point is that if you are able to lift 6 times a week then do it. If not then back off until you find what you can do physically and still make progress. Progress is the point of this whole thing isn’t it?

You say yourself in your next post that lifting 4 times a week was too much for you to do consistently. You started getting injuries. Can you lift 3 times a week consistently without eventually leading to injuries? Then do that. If not then twice a week. If not twice then once a week.

Why not try two times a week for a month. Then three times a week for a month. Then four. Then five. Then six. Work your way up to it. Most people won’t be able to jump from once or twice to six times immediately without either eventually overtraining and burning out or injuring themselves. [/quote]

i get you. his previous posts were very trollish, calling for the thread to end all together. this has been a good thread with some good info, for the most part civil discussion on an interesting topic. rare for this board.

I have trained 2-3 times a day 6 days a week(when i was a pretty high level A class HG athlete and a college thrower) i am in my forties now, and as a matter of fact i am doing a 2x week plan right now. that WAS going great, until i tore a calf muscle sprinting saturday.

without the extra conditioning that 2xweek lifting affords me, I am afraid i will go backwards as far as body comp is concerned, and i have made tremendous progress in that area as of late.

I guess I am looking for info that might lead me to proper programing/loading that would allow for more frequent lifting now that I am older and more injury prone. [/quote]

Trollish? lol, yeah cause at first it seemed that the OP was just tryin to troll, so I responded in kind. DB explained what I meant, go with what works. If Low Volume leads to gains without injry, do it. If High Volume is leading to gains without injury, do it. No disrespect to meant at you.

[al1492]

In the interview coach Broz mentions working up to that level of frequency and intensity (here I am using the word to mean % of max) over a period of time.

Maybe I’m looking into that wrong but I do see a parallel with the Sheiko camp of powerlifting training, as more advanced lifters will use templates that have a higher intensity, number of lifts, and training frequency.

[heavythrower]

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:

[quote]dumbbellhead wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
Guess I am just lazy.

Or stubborn.

I’m gonna go with stubborn.

Why is this an argument? If squatting heavy once a week is leading to gains and improvement, keep it up. If its not, up the volume.

[/quote]

what is your problem. I have been lifting for 27 years, competed at the state and regional level in PL, throwing, and HG. I am not having a problem with the discussion going on in this thread, in fact, I am learning some stuff and it is intellectually stimulating.

Very good discussion, please continue.
[/quote]

DF’s point is that if you are able to lift 6 times a week then do it. If not then back off until you find what you can do physically and still make progress. Progress is the point of this whole thing isn’t it?

You say yourself in your next post that lifting 4 times a week was too much for you to do consistently. You started getting injuries. Can you lift 3 times a week consistently without eventually leading to injuries? Then do that. If not then twice a week. If not twice then once a week.

Why not try two times a week for a month. Then three times a week for a month. Then four. Then five. Then six. Work your way up to it. Most people won’t be able to jump from once or twice to six times immediately without either eventually overtraining and burning out or injuring themselves. [/quote]

i get you. his previous posts were very trollish, calling for the thread to end all together. this has been a good thread with some good info, for the most part civil discussion on an interesting topic. rare for this board.

I have trained 2-3 times a day 6 days a week(when i was a pretty high level A class HG athlete and a college thrower) i am in my forties now, and as a matter of fact i am doing a 2x week plan right now. that WAS going great, until i tore a calf muscle sprinting saturday.

without the extra conditioning that 2xweek lifting affords me, I am afraid i will go backwards as far as body comp is concerned, and i have made tremendous progress in that area as of late.

I guess I am looking for info that might lead me to proper programing/loading that would allow for more frequent lifting now that I am older and more injury prone. [/quote]

Trollish? lol, yeah cause at first it seemed that the OP was just tryin to troll, so I responded in kind. DB explained what I meant, go with what works. If Low Volume leads to gains without injry, do it. If High Volume is leading to gains without injury, do it. No disrespect to meant at you.
[/quote]

non taken