HFT is Unpopular

Training Powerlifting
101

Yes there are parallels between Sheiko and Broz, though Broz doesn’t like being compared to Sheiko. He talks about certain flaws in Sheiko’s training systems as if they are obviously flaws, but I think that it is just Broz’ ego that prevents him admitting Sheiko is as good or better, despite the fact that Sheiko is based off a similar system to his own, and Sheiko actually has experience in training powerlifters…

Admittedly the difference is that Sheiko is based on Russian OL, and Broz is based on Bulgarian OL, so there will always be contention there.

I remember one section Broz says lunges are a shitty exercise for Powerlifters to assist with, and that Powerlifters can’t afford to perform assistance movements, but that contradicts the way ANY OL lifter progresses their Snatch and Clean and Jerk. By assisting with specific muscle intensive assitance lifts, a lifter can work on his weaknesses.

Now some lifters may Google Sheiko and find the programs 29 and 37 and that lot etc. but not realise there is much more to russian powerlifting than those handful of programs. I am sure if I did not look further into the badly translated transcripts of Sheiko’s writings I would not have realised the PROGRESSION of Sheiko. Sheiko is not a traditional periodized program in theory.

Choice of assistance exercises must not be taken from the programs as written, they must be chosen by a coach who can assess the weaknesses in the lifting movement…
Lunges can condition weak glutes. Goodmornigns can condition weak hamstrings. Those are assumptions made by Sheiko upon which he can write a ‘generalized’ program.

I think the lesson here is that both systems can potentially work, but effective management of a HFT PL routine relies on taking advice from both systems.

102

The other problem is actually translating Sheiko’s book…

103

This is a pretty interesting discussion. So for those of you who do employ high-frequency training, how do you usually organize your training with regards to intensity, volume, excercise selection and so forth?

104

[quote]forevernade wrote:
Yes there are parallels between Sheiko and Broz, though Broz doesn’t like being compared to Sheiko. He talks about certain flaws in Sheiko’s training systems as if they are obviously flaws, but I think that it is just Broz’ ego that prevents him admitting Sheiko is as good or better, despite the fact that Sheiko is based off a similar system to his own, and Sheiko actually has experience in training powerlifters…

Admittedly the difference is that Sheiko is based on Russian OL, and Broz is based on Bulgarian OL, so there will always be contention there.

I remember one section Broz says lunges are a shitty exercise for Powerlifters to assist with, and that Powerlifters can’t afford to perform assistance movements, but that contradicts the way ANY OL lifter progresses their Snatch and Clean and Jerk. By assisting with specific muscle intensive assitance lifts, a lifter can work on his weaknesses.

Now some lifters may Google Sheiko and find the programs 29 and 37 and that lot etc. but not realise there is much more to russian powerlifting than those handful of programs. I am sure if I did not look further into the badly translated transcripts of Sheiko’s writings I would not have realised the PROGRESSION of Sheiko. Sheiko is not a traditional periodized program in theory.

Choice of assistance exercises must not be taken from the programs as written, they must be chosen by a coach who can assess the weaknesses in the lifting movement…
Lunges can condition weak glutes. Goodmornigns can condition weak hamstrings. Those are assumptions made by Sheiko upon which he can write a ‘generalized’ program.

I think the lesson here is that both systems can potentially work, but effective management of a HFT PL routine relies on taking advice from both systems.[/quote]

OL assitance tends to be lift based (snatch from high hang etc.) and the vast majority of training volume is spent on the actual lifts themselves.

Powerlifting programmes in a general sense tend to spend the vast amount of volume on assistance exercises i.e. squat + 2-3 assistance lifts (not the case for shielko obviously).

105

this is a great thread discussing the HFT protocols, and Broz himself is answering lots of the questions. 14 pages long, but it is worth the read.

just skip ahead to all of Broz’s answers, he does a good job of quoting the original question then answering. just about everything I could think of was addressed on this thread, including how to adapt the program for weightlifters, ie PL or strongmen.

oops, i put in a link to a competitors website. so it got moded. sorry guys, and sorry T-Nation.

Pm me if you want to know where that site is. I sent Broz himself a PM to see if he would come back on T-Nation and answer some questions, has not responded yet. :frowning:

106

[quote]IrishMarc wrote:

[quote]forevernade wrote:
Yes there are parallels between Sheiko and Broz, though Broz doesn’t like being compared to Sheiko. He talks about certain flaws in Sheiko’s training systems as if they are obviously flaws, but I think that it is just Broz’ ego that prevents him admitting Sheiko is as good or better, despite the fact that Sheiko is based off a similar system to his own, and Sheiko actually has experience in training powerlifters…

Admittedly the difference is that Sheiko is based on Russian OL, and Broz is based on Bulgarian OL, so there will always be contention there.

I remember one section Broz says lunges are a shitty exercise for Powerlifters to assist with, and that Powerlifters can’t afford to perform assistance movements, but that contradicts the way ANY OL lifter progresses their Snatch and Clean and Jerk. By assisting with specific muscle intensive assitance lifts, a lifter can work on his weaknesses.

Now some lifters may Google Sheiko and find the programs 29 and 37 and that lot etc. but not realise there is much more to russian powerlifting than those handful of programs. I am sure if I did not look further into the badly translated transcripts of Sheiko’s writings I would not have realised the PROGRESSION of Sheiko. Sheiko is not a traditional periodized program in theory.

Choice of assistance exercises must not be taken from the programs as written, they must be chosen by a coach who can assess the weaknesses in the lifting movement…
Lunges can condition weak glutes. Goodmornigns can condition weak hamstrings. Those are assumptions made by Sheiko upon which he can write a ‘generalized’ program.

I think the lesson here is that both systems can potentially work, but effective management of a HFT PL routine relies on taking advice from both systems.[/quote]

OL assitance tends to be lift based (snatch from high hang etc.) and the vast majority of training volume is spent on the actual lifts themselves.

Powerlifting programmes in a general sense tend to spend the vast amount of volume on assistance exercises i.e. squat + 2-3 assistance lifts (not the case for shielko obviously).

[/quote]

makes sense…If PL were not devoting so much resources to GHR, goodmornings, RDL, STDL, SSB squats, box squats from different levels, board presses, incline presses, 50 different types of triceps pushdowns and extensions, etc. maybe they (PLers) could squat bench and pull more often and make progress.

It is worth considering.

107

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
this is a great thread discussing the HFT protocols, and Broz himself is answering lots of the questions. 14 pages long, but it is worth the read.

just skip ahead to all of Broz’s answers, he does a good job of quoting the original question then answering. just about everything I could think of was addressed on this thread, including how to adapt the program for weightlifters, ie PL or strongmen.

oops, i put in a link to a competitors website. so it got moded. sorry guys, and sorry T-Nation.

Pm me if you want to know where that site is. I sent Broz himself a PM to see if he would come back on T-Nation and answer some questions, has not responded yet. :([/quote]

Yeah, I know the thread you are talking about - lots of good information. I wonder how much gains could be made on his outlined powerlifting program (given that it works) as opposed to a more moderate approach. I mean, for the average guy, investing so much time in the gym would have to be justified with some pretty good gains.

108

[quote]forevernade wrote:

Should Powerlifters ever train at the same high frequency as Bulgarian Weightlifters? My answer is Powerlifters are too lazy, or stubborn to try, so no one has found out.

Can you still train with high frequency if you are not squatting like a Weightlifter? My answer is yes. Others are saying no because multiply squat style does not involve high speed lifting.
[/quote]

I have an interest in HFT for powerlifting so if anyone has any information, I’d like to see it.

One issue I have with comparing squats is that you’re looking at Olympic-caliber athletes’ squats and comparing them to club-level powerlifter squats. Sure, guys that have been hand selected, training since they were 8 years old, have a supervised diet and training regimen, etc, etc. will be better lifters than the average pl’er who probably started after college, has a job, etc. A more balanced comparison would be to compare to local weightlifting clubs, and from what I have seen, powerlifters will squat more (in powerlifting style), than Olympic lifters. I have seen videos of Olympic lifters benching very good numbers as well, but one would certainly not prescribe an Olympic lifting program for benching.

Can you train with HFT for geared squatting? This is what I would like to know. From what I have tried, it’s too much, as the extra weight you handle with the gear is very hard to recover from. Even going to 80% pretty much means going near to over one’s raw max. While the gear definitely helps, it’s still weight on your back, and you still get drained by it.

Can someone send me a link to the Broz stuff?

Thanks.

109

This is a good thread. As for me I have never squatted more than 3x in a week, but when I did that the gains were very good. I was 26/27 doing that. Probably toward the upper end of where you’d want to be age-wise to train that way if you haven’t done it before.

However, I was not squatting to a max or anywhere near it, it was pretty volume intensive with percentages in the 60s. Same for bench and deadlift. Deadlift did not move much, bench might have moved a little, but the squat gains were very good.

Obviously the Broz method is something intriguing, but something I’d want to see a bunch of other people try before I even considered it. For those who don’t know, what he suggests (for a powerlifter) would look something like:

-Squat every day or at least 6 days/week, working up to a max or near max single every day, then doing backoff triples and doubles for anywhere from 6-50 reps.
-Bench and deadlift 3x/week each, alternating days. Bench you’d follow the same protocol as squats, and deads you’d do lots of sets of speed pulls for doubles or triples.
-Minimal or no extra work except for some rear delt/prehab stuff for bench

I’d love for someone to give this a few months, fighting through the inevitable misery that would hit after about a week, and see where they are. I am not going to be that guy.

110

I’m working on a little more frequency starting this past Wednesday. Not daily maxes but kinda whatever I feel like that day sorta heavy. I’ll update occasionally on this thread if you want. Quick run down of this past week.

Monday
Pwr cleans ramp to 185(3x2)
Box squat 275(2x5) 225 (6)
lat tower ghr 3x6
I did some pull ups, rows, and biceps too.

Tuesday
push press ramp to 185x2
-ss- shrugs 3x10
inc press ramp to 245x1, .5x6
rot. db press 50x12
smith inc press 90x20
face pulls 3x10-20
triceps

wednesday
messed around with cleans, db snatches, swings, get ups, front squats, and jerks,

Thursday
kinda similar to monday

friday similar to tuesday.

111

If you haven’t read the article “Look Like a Bodybuilder, Perform Like an Athlete” then drop this thread and go now. I think it has very high relevancy to this thread (for when you come rushing back here), and if I was to start HFT I would base my format on the suggestions in that article. If you understand Broz, Sheiko and LLB,PLA then you are well on your way to immense strength gains.

112

[quote]forevernade wrote:
If you haven’t read the article “Look Like a Bodybuilder, Perform Like an Athlete” then drop this thread and go now. I think it has very high relevancy to this thread (for when you come rushing back here), and if I was to start HFT I would base my format on the suggestions in that article. If you understand Broz, Sheiko and LLB,PLA then you are well on your way to immense strength gains.[/quote]

link?
Edit: lol, sorry, I just saw it’s in the home page :slight_smile:

113

Freakin funny dude! lol

114

[quote]Crow wrote:
Alright here are my HFT theories. I’m a believer in Bruce Lee’s thoughts on taking and using what is good from others and discarding what is not useful. This is a personal thing for every one; what works for me might not work for you.

I use a “Bulgurianized” 5-3-1 Program that incorporates the Olympic lifts. I know thats a mouthful. I train 4-7 days in a row. My job/family duties usually dictate my rest days otherwise I would train everyday. So with my 5/3/1 there aren’t training “weeks”. We combine the 12 totals workouts into 6 sessions (more on that later).

I can run through a full cycle in as little as a week and half. Its a simple program with a short menu of exercises: snatch, clean & jerk, back squat, front squat, bench press, deadlift, military press, pullups, T-Bar rows, with the occasional ab work. Thats 9 total exercises, period. After running this program for a while I come to some conclusions (which might change/evolve the more I do it):

  1. Snatch or clean everyday. The full versions are better than the power ones. Performing them first allows you optimal performance. They truly prime/activate your CNS for the rest of your session. Low reps 1-2, sometimes 3, are best. You aren’t trying to build hypertrophy, your training perfect technique while trying to generate maximal power.

Without the heavy eccentric strain, high volume, frequency, and intensity can all be maintained. Work up to a daily max, then back of 10-20kg and continue to peform singles and doubles. Increase weight if it gets too easy (and it should). You should be able to build a tolerance to 10-30 reps at or over 90% of your daily max.

I find my perform decreases on day following rest days, so I perform the power versions on those days. I will vary the clean day (sometimes clean only, sometimes clean and jerk, even jerk only sometimes). The OL training obviously is very instinctual.

  1. You can squat more often with more intensity and volume than you can deadlift. You can bench press more often with more intensity and volume than you can military press. I think the deadlift just much more CNS intensive than the squat. The military involves more “small” muscles than the bench press. Interesting that they both start from a static start with no elastic preload or stretch reflex. All this means is that you have to work more deloads and less heavy singles or extra sets at the end of your 5-3-1 work sets.

I like the 3,5,1 loading scheme for the squat, bench, deadlift, military. Session 1 3x3 and some heavy singles, Session 2 just 3x5, Session 3 5,3,1 and some heavy singles. Deloads are 3-4x5 at 50-60%.

  1. Squat with bench press. Deadlift with military.

  2. Throw in front squats every few deadlift sessions or instead of deadlifting during deload periods. Be create with your loading and rep schemes. Just always move the bar fast and squat deep! Rarely will we go above 3-5 reps.

  3. Pair T-Bar rows (or any good horizontal rowing) with bench press. Pair pullups with military press. Pullups are better than any other back exercise. Do your rows between every set (including warmups) of your pressing exercises. Be creative with the rep schemes. Some days heavy, some days light, just keep it variable, yet always progressive.

  4. Only other accessory exercise that is necessary is abdominal training. All others might be fine exercises and strengthen weak points or fix imbalance, but they also negatively affect your recovery ability, add unnecessary gym time, train improper motor patterns, and create new imbalances. The only exception is if you are rehabbing a specific injury and the exercises have a therapeutic benefit.

  5. Dynamic mobility and “movement” stretching is the prefered warmup modality over static stretching.
    [/quote]

Interesting stuff Crow, i see alot of similarities in CT’s HPM.

I’m starting HFT now. Not because i think its better or not but because i have alot of free time right now and i’m tried of drinking booze everyday when i’m home. I work on the big blue sea. :slight_smile:

115

I’ve tried a few different methods to increas the squat. This post won’t be too extensive, but I’ll give my 5 cents.

Stats: 10 years of training
1RM squat: 255kg no-no-no squat
Genetics: Average
Height: 182cm
Bw: approx 120kg
Life time natural.

Done a lot of Smolov training. Had a few injuries, some worse than others. Tried squats 6x a week for 31 days last summer. Increased my squat a few kg, so it worked, but i was very tired most of the time. Attending a demanding university education I need to have my head working, so this year I’ve mostly squatted 3-4 times a week. Modified the Smolov base meso cycle into the Smolov S Alpha, with squats every second day. Taken a few elements from Broz, and some elements from Tuscherer. Working up to a heavy single before volume work every time I can stand it. Doing all the volume work paused. Find it easier on the joints, and I love the paused squat. Mixing in some FSQ sometimes when I feel like. Sometime I do heavy paused singles after the volume work, if I have the energy, but then usually not on the day when I start with heavy singles.

The study by Kirketeig I am sure is interesting, but the results was released on a convention at Hamar, and what’s on the styrkeloft site is just a poorly written summary by a very young lifter. I haven’t checked if the complete paper is available, but I believe it was made as a part of Kirketeigs (norwegian squat record holder btw 341kg@90 IPF) education, so it might be available in some online site that store such papers. It might be possible to contact Kirketeig directly for inqueries regarding that research.

There was a lot of information that was not covered in the summary, so the summary is basically useless. To review the research critically, all raw data must be known, and proper statistical analysis must be conducted.

If you want to become good at something, it must be practised often. So also with the squat. It’s not only about the muscle strength, but activation of the muscle nerves, execution of movement etc. For instance if you have a form issue that needs to be corrected, and you only squat once a week, that’s only 52 workouts in a year, compare that to 208 workouts if you squat 4 times a week. All aspects of the lift needs to be adressed, and most lifters can fine tune their technique to become very good at what they do.

It is my impression that many people who complain about a weak squat do not squat frequently, and often have low volume too. Work capacity will be increased gradually, and if coached by a knowledgeable trainer (national coach), this work capacity can be gradually increased in a controlled fashion over many years.

We see in all sports that the very best athletes train frequently, not only physically, but also mentally.

Most lifters will not be able to lift full time. Having a job, a family, obligations, kids etc, will certainly cut into recovery, even if an hour a day can be set aside for training.

So I still stand by my earlier statement that training the squat 1 or 2 times a week is a joke. But don’t get worked up about that. If you know someone that is succesful squatting that seldom, that’s fine. It’s not only about frequency, but also about intensity and volume. Many years ago I actually did squat only once a week for 7 weeks straight. What I did was 10x10 in the squat every saturday, adding 2.5kg every week.

In theory someone squatting once a week could do more volume in one session than someone squatting 6 times a week. But I think what the conclusion in the Kirketeig research was that frequent stimuli to the muscles was what gave the strength increase that was better when training 6 times a week compared to 3 times a week. But as I said, I have no specific details about the research.

I am also for the principle of specificity. If one wants to become good in one exercise, it must be performed. Even similar exercises may not have very good transfer of strength to an exercise that is quite similar. Ie. a very good bencher may not have a very good millitary press if he never performs the millitary press, and it is very possible that a weaker bencher will outdo the strong bencher in the millitary press given that the weaker bencher trains the millitary press a lot.

What it boils down to is how much do you want to put in, and what results do you want? If you are satisfied with your gains with your current setup, there’s really no need to change anything. There’s always the search for the optimal method, but nothing beats patience and time. Those two are the greatest warriors, to quote Tolstoy.

The intelligent lifter will always improve every year, he will not “stall” for many years to come, unless he becomes highly advanced. Proper analysis of all factors involved and mentoring from a good coach is something that can help. In Norway, there’s a guru called Dietmar who coach his athletes with his philosophy, but I’d think that RTS invented by Mike Tuscherer is just as good, if not better.

And in the end, it’s not exactly rocket science. For 95% of all the lifters, busting their ass every week of the year and switching up exercises and intensities will give good results. :slight_smile:

116

I’m kind of curious as to if there were any books out there with how to apply and create training cycles like the russian squat cycle. In the next few weeks I’ll be just doing a relatively high frequency (squats and bench monday and friday, deads on wednesday) until after christmas where I’ll start the 3 lift russian squat routine.

117

I really have to buy Mike Tuscherer’s book.

118

[quote]stallion wrote:
The study by Kirketeig I am sure is interesting, but the results was released on a convention at Hamar, and what’s on the styrkeloft site is just a poorly written summary by a very young lifter. I haven’t checked if the complete paper is available, but I believe it was made as a part of Kirketeigs (norwegian squat record holder btw 341kg@90 IPF) education, so it might be available in some online site that store such papers. It might be possible to contact Kirketeig directly for inqueries regarding that research.

There was a lot of information that was not covered in the summary, so the summary is basically useless. To review the research critically, all raw data must be known, and proper statistical analysis must be conducted.[/quote]
According to Truls, the full disclosure probably won’t be until next summer / fall. Alex was supposed to compile and analyse all the data by himself, but it’s become apparent that it’s just too much stuff to handle alone. Assuming it is released next summer, that’ll be a full two years between the last squat and the publishing of the results. I hate research sometimes.

What is a good squat to you? Throw out some numbers.

119

[quote]Khaine wrote:

[quote]stallion wrote:
The study by Kirketeig I am sure is interesting, but the results was released on a convention at Hamar, and what’s on the styrkeloft site is just a poorly written summary by a very young lifter. I haven’t checked if the complete paper is available, but I believe it was made as a part of Kirketeigs (norwegian squat record holder btw 341kg@90 IPF) education, so it might be available in some online site that store such papers. It might be possible to contact Kirketeig directly for inqueries regarding that research.

There was a lot of information that was not covered in the summary, so the summary is basically useless. To review the research critically, all raw data must be known, and proper statistical analysis must be conducted.[/quote]
According to Truls, the full disclosure probably won’t be until next summer / fall. Alex was supposed to compile and analyse all the data by himself, but it’s become apparent that it’s just too much stuff to handle alone. Assuming it is released next summer, that’ll be a full two years between the last squat and the publishing of the results. I hate research sometimes.

What is a good squat to you? Throw out some numbers.[/quote]

What’s a good squat to me personally you mean? Or did you mean in general for everyone on this site?

The answer is as with so many other questions: It depends.

Low bar, wide stance vs. high bar narrow stance. Atg vs. parallel. Suited vs. unsuited. There are many variables to consider. Relative strength vs. absolute strength, natural vs. enhanced etc…

If a trainee can do a deep squat with just a belt of 200kg/440lbs he is strong from the viewpoint of any ordinary gym rat. That’s something any healthy adult man should be able to do given enough training and focus on the squat. But in PL/weightlifting context a 200kg/440lbs raw squat is nothing special.

There exist some strength classification charts, both official and unoffical one can find using google. Typically a devoted trainee wil score higher on a classification chart that is aimed at ordinary gym rats as compared to PL/weightlifting strength classification charts.

So I’m not going to throw out so many numbers, as my personal opinion on the matter is not that important, but everyone that’s in the lifestyle of lifting sure can appreciate some heavy lifts and knows how much work is behind it.

120

[quote]Khaine wrote:

[quote]stallion wrote:
The study by Kirketeig I am sure is interesting, but the results was released on a convention at Hamar, and what’s on the styrkeloft site is just a poorly written summary by a very young lifter. I haven’t checked if the complete paper is available, but I believe it was made as a part of Kirketeigs (norwegian squat record holder btw 341kg@90 IPF) education, so it might be available in some online site that store such papers. It might be possible to contact Kirketeig directly for inqueries regarding that research.

There was a lot of information that was not covered in the summary, so the summary is basically useless. To review the research critically, all raw data must be known, and proper statistical analysis must be conducted.[/quote]
According to Truls, the full disclosure probably won’t be until next summer / fall. Alex was supposed to compile and analyse all the data by himself, but it’s become apparent that it’s just too much stuff to handle alone. Assuming it is released next summer, that’ll be a full two years between the last squat and the publishing of the results. I hate research sometimes.

What is a good squat to you? Throw out some numbers.[/quote]

What’s a good squat to me personally you mean? Or did you mean in general for everyone on this site?

The answer is as with so many other questions: It depends.

Low bar, wide stance vs. high bar narrow stance. Atg vs. parallel. Suited vs. unsuited. There are many variables to consider. Relative strength vs. absolute strength, natural vs. enhanced etc…

If a trainee can do a deep squat with just a belt of 200kg/440lbs he is strong from the viewpoint of any ordinary gym rat. That’s something any healthy adult man should be able to do given enough training and focus on the squat. But in PL/weightlifting context a 200kg/440lbs raw squat is nothing special.

There exist some strength classification charts, both official and unoffical one can find using google. Typically a devoted trainee wil score higher on a classification chart that is aimed at ordinary gym rats as compared to PL/weightlifting strength classification charts.

So I’m not going to throw out so many numbers, as my personal opinion on the matter is not that important, but everyone that’s in the lifestyle of lifting sure can appreciate some heavy lifts and knows how much work is behind it.